Rules in PnP vs on cRPG. Why some changes? In many games?

SorcererV1ct0r

I clearly understand that certain things like raise island epic spell, wish, etc; is very hard to implement on a computer game, and impossible to be flexible like on pnp, but certain games that tries to be very pnp like, by some unknown reason decide to not proper implement certain classes. Arcane archer on NWN1 is an example. I like the idea, but be restricted to only imbue fire, kills the prestige class against fire immune creatures(and believe, fire is one of the most resisted/negated element on the OC, player modules and hotu expansion), and Pale Master. Being restricted to one summon(instead of raising an undead army) and not getting caster level as on pnp, kills the class.

The biggest example of this is on NWN2 with warlocks. I tried to play the game with an warlock, but was an extremely frustrating experience. Then found an mod that makes his spells more PnP-like ( https://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/other/warlock-reworked-102g ) and started to love the class and even read the Complete Arcane sourcebook, despite never had played with an warlock in pnp, started to love the class. I mean, Chilling Tentacles GRAPPLES enemies, making the best crowd control invokation. The dead walk, instead of being limited to one weak undead, can easily raise an undead army and you can't control more than your CL * 2 HD worth of creatures. The SR check on Eldricht blast was corrected. Not all pnp invokations are in the cRPG since they aren't easy to adapt to an cRPG, but make the class closer to pnp and less "nerfed", made one of the worst experiences that i had with an class into my favorite nwn2 playtrough(at least until the moment, still lv 10).



The biggest example of this is sword coast legends. The game has less D&D on it than games that has no relation with D&D. And the best examples of adaptating PnP rules into an cRPG is Icewind dale, Baldur's Gate and Pathfinder Kingmaker. NWN1 did right on most things, except necromancy, conjuration and prestige classes. If modders can make this PnP like, why big companies can't?

shabadoo

There's not only ease of implementation, but size to consider. After the mechanics of an effect, there are the graphical representations and sounds etc... A fancy spell with astounding visuals and epic effect can take up a large amount of memory. Still small when compared to the overall size of the program, but large enough that it can be tossed if it won't be popular or is likely to cause problems.

SorcererV1ct0r

shabadoo wrote: »

There's not only ease of implementation, but size to consider. After the mechanics of an effect, there are the graphical representations and sounds etc... A fancy spell with astounding visuals and epic effect can take up a large amount of memory. Still small when compared to the overall size of the program, but large enough that it can be tossed if it won't be popular or is likely to cause problems.

Well, the game "handles" well certain big scale battles mainly on end game on (nwn2 examples bellow)

crossroad keep.In fact, Ammon Jerro
controlls huge armies in certain cutscenes

IS sad how an class can be amazing on pnp, when played by an npc on the story, but when played by the player, be awful(unless fixed by mods) I don't think that few more unities will be an "game breaking" mainly because modds that removes this "only one summon BS". And being very honest. In the case of arcane archer, is just give the option to instead of imbue fire, imbue other elements and for pale master, give + caster level. This is not implementing fly into the game or something hard.

Kamigoroshi

I imagine players would be quite upset by certain PnP rules being implemented in video games. Like AD&D with certain lovely kit abilities that work only once every tendays. No, really, they would rage when confronted with such a ridiculous cooldown timer.

BelgarathMTH

@SorcererV1ct0r , I can't resist commenting on your screen shot. Especially since your topic is about "staying true to PnP". I don't think you should have Casavir in a party with that character. There's no way in the Nine Hells he'd be putting up with that. He'd either attack or walk away the first time you summoned such evil creatures.

I can't really see Khelgar being okay with it, either.

SorcererV1ct0r

BelgarathMTH wrote: »

@SorcererV1ct0r , I can't resist commenting on your screen shot. Especially since your topic is about "staying true to PnP". I don't think you should have Casavir in a party with that character. There's no way in the Nine Hells he'd be putting up with that. He'd either attack or walk away the first time you summoned such evil creatures.

I can't really see Khelgar being okay with it, either.

Yes, you are right.

I hope an 5e adaptation on cRPG, so i can make an chaotic good warlock with an archfiend patron. Just kidding, i enjoy role playing with my character. On Pathfinder Kingmaker, i took zero fire based spells for my sorcerer with silver dragon bloodline, doesn't matter if i will face undead and trolls and the rules allow it.

Anyway, being very honest, i finished the OC of NWN2 two times and honestly, looks like the developers made an campaign to make sense with just an neutral/lawful good fighter.(for me who doesn't like martial classes...) I as an warlock could prove my innocence in a certain part by "N" ways. Just argue that i could be invisible and maybe implant evidences of "bribery" in my enemies and make my enemies be arrested by bribery.

BelgarathMTH

@SorcererV1ct0r , well, the bare bones (pun intended) makings of an evil run are there. You'd run with Qara, Bishop, and Neeshka (not evil, more chaotic neutral, but she'd get used to demons and undead if they helped her survive and profit - heck, she's half demon herself). Maybe Grobnar would be interested in studying how dark creatures work. Elanee, Khelgar, Casavir, and Zhavae would be out. Maybe Sand would stick around out of academic interest. He's neutral, so he wouldn't necessarily object to undead and demons automatically, as long as they were under control. Of course Amon would be fine with it, since he's a warlock himself, although he'd possibly be jealous and consider you a rival if he couldn't do warlock powers as well as you. You'd need Amon to read the scroll at the end, since you'd likely choose him over Zhavae.

As far as the main plot, you could be out for revenge for your family and friends who were killed in West Harbor. You could also be plotting to get Garius out of your way and try to take the Shadow King's power for yourself, even though in the end, you'd have to kill him to save yourself, without the power. Of course, then you'd wake up in a cave in Mask of the Betrayer with soul-eater power instead, which you'd probably embrace.

ThacoBell

Certain things should never be carried over from PnP. Can you imagine killing your characters because you cast "Haste" one too many times?

Kamigoroshi

ThacoBell wrote: »

Can you imagine killing your characters because you cast "Haste" one too many times?

BRB, going to the Feature Request forum real quick.

BelgarathMTH

You know, come to think of it, an evil warlock might be a perfect role play character for Mask of the Betrayer.

SorcererV1ct0r

BelgarathMTH wrote: »

@SorcererV1ct0r , well, the bare bones (pun intended) makings of an evil run are there. You'd run with Qara, Bishop, and Neeshka (not evil, more chaotic neutral, but she'd get used to demons and undead if they helped her survive and profit - heck, she's half demon herself). (...)

Only an correction. She is a Tiefling and they aren't half demons, they are more like 1/16 demons(not sure about fractions) or something similar. Half demons/Half fiends( https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Half-fiend ) are a different species. Just like half celestial and aasimar.

PS : My warlock is chaotic good at moment(and yes, the rules only restrict lawful good/neutral good)

DrHappyAngry

I always have to throw Grobnar in with an evil party, Bishop's dialog with him is so awesome. Khelgar's is pretty good, too, and he won't care if you murder Elanee late in the game, either. Grobnar kinda works in an evil party, as he's just misled and not really understanding what the hell's going on all the time. So long as you have great influence with Grobnar, the construct makes a good fit for evil too.

DJKajuru

In pnp a single dungeon could take hours for a full exploration and there would be about 3 or 4 combats while in a IE game combats are way faster and more visual than classic pnp for the very sake of dynamics and fun. I understand that some things should definitely remain by the rules but others should surely change.

On the other hand, Im totally with you when they use the Name D&D to create stuff that has nothing to do with the system.

JuliusBorisov

I think one of the reasons is the difficulty of putting PnP rules into interesting gameplay. Another reason is that we didn't get a lot of PnP-based games in the first place.

SorcererV1ct0r

DrHappyAngry wrote: »

I always have to throw Grobnar in with an evil party, Bishop's dialog with him is so awesome. Khelgar's is pretty good, too, and he won't care if you murder Elanee late in the game, either. Grobnar kinda works in an evil party, as he's just misled and not really understanding what the hell's going on all the time. So long as you have great influence with Grobnar, the construct makes a good fit for evil too.

Yes, but being very honest, only i think that the OC of nwn2 doesn't make much sense for "non martial" main character? Be an warlock animating dead an conjuring hellfire in front of an lawful good paladin isn't the unique think that makes no sense. The trial with an sorcerer MC should be over quickly. And an Druid playtrougth... Anyway, at least on 2, is more easy to mod the game to make certain classes more pnp like.

JuliusBorisov wrote: »

I think one of the reasons is the difficulty of putting PnP rules into interesting gameplay. Another reason is that we didn't get a lot of PnP-based games in the first place.

I think that depends the rule. Allow Arcane Archer to imbue eletricity and cold, pale master to increase his caster level and raise island epic spells aren't the same thing....