Controversial Opinion: Constitution is a surprisingly good dump stat
Chronicler
Member Posts: 1,391
It takes 9 Constitution points to go from 7 to 16, which is the most you can benefit from in most classes.
Those 9 points only get you 2 hp per level.
You can do so many things with those 9 points.
If you're a mage your protections will make HP a moot point most of the time anyway. Thieves are gonna want to make a hasty retreat if they end up in the line of fire most of the time. Clerics have a level 2 spell that will eventually be able to boost their constitution by up to 6 points. Theives probably rely on their constitution the most but they all to various degrees can afford to lose some Con points.
Those 9 points only get you 2 hp per level.
You can do so many things with those 9 points.
If you're a mage your protections will make HP a moot point most of the time anyway. Thieves are gonna want to make a hasty retreat if they end up in the line of fire most of the time. Clerics have a level 2 spell that will eventually be able to boost their constitution by up to 6 points. Theives probably rely on their constitution the most but they all to various degrees can afford to lose some Con points.
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Also, you will get fatigued after every travel and have to rest all the time. If you don't mind that, you're probably right.
What would you use the points for in a mage, apart from the obvious Int? What do you consider more useful than Con?
Fatigue for 7-14 is the same. I was surprised to find that out too. Rasaad tires at the same rate as Xan.
Dex gives you a ranged thac0 bonus. Every point counts for mages because they don't get much through levels. +4 Thac0 is 12 levels worth of Thac0.
Strength lets you carry more. It's just convenient when your mage can carry a bit more than spell scrolls.
Charisma is always useful for a party leader. A mage can boost it with the Friends spell so don't go too crazy but it improves prices, quest rewards, and I just recently learns it improves your party's morale. So a higher Charisma score for example will mean Khalid can fight a bit longer before experiencing Morale Failure.
Wisdom eventually comes in handy for the wish spell I'm told. I mostly play BG1 and I've never gotten too far into Bg2, so I can't personally testify to that.
While a mage doesn't have very many stats that it direly needs, I'd argue that there are plenty of stats that are more useful for even a mage than constitution.
A level 10 wizard without CON boosts/familiar effect, has at most 40 HPs (if you have max HP on level up). If you're playing with normal HP increases, said wizard will have on average 26 HPs. The +2 from CON is another 20 HPs, which is a 50% increase in first instance and around 85% increase in second. For rogues, the numbers are 60 or 37, so increase is between 33 and 45%. In other words massive.
You can make arguments about "HPs shouldn't matter if you have right defences/strategy" all day long. And using HPs to survive should be a last resort not a first. But in game things always happen that mean you inevitably take damage, so not being paperweight has big advantages in survivability.
I'd also be willing to bet that 99% of successful no-reload playthrough characters had CON of at least 16.
That is some interesting math. I'd never crunched the numbers quite like that. I don't feel like it's that noticeable a difference when I'm playing but I'll have to pay attention to it.
Oh for sure. Saving throws are everything. Don't dump Con if you're a shorty.
i think that those 2 things perfectly nailed the point.
the general low hp of the beginning of bg and later having the maxed hp on leveling up or the average one (or possibly less then average) makes a huge difference in how the hp added by con is useful or not.
and the player's tactics can influence this only to some extent, as a better hp pool can make all the difference if a saving throw is failed, if a couple of critical hits in a row kick in and in many other situations.
i would say that for a player that has always charname with at least 50% of his hp at the end of every battle and also as the battle is happening it is safe to use con as drop stat, weather he uses maxed hp roll or not does not matter much, that player has a play style that allow it.
for a player that has charname dropping his hp under 50% it is gambling, relying on the power of reload, as in a whole game or the whole saga the chance that something bad never happens is really extremely narrow.
the more and the more often charname drops his hp under 50% the more dropping con becomes gambling.
i always play with average hp increase and don't like to depend on the power of reload, even if i am not a no reloader, so con is usually the last stat i want to drop.
for other ways to play it can be very different, play style matters.
In any case, my ranking of dump stats, insofar as they would be needed from least desirable to most desirable is:
DEX (every character benefits)
CON (per this discussion)
STR (can be rectified quite easily with equipment, but you do want as much as you can manage)
INT/WIS (can be happily dumped if not arcane or divine caster)
CHA (every character can basically dump, just has no material gameplay benefit and Ring of Human Influence makes it disappear anyway once you get it)
Balance in all things baldur.
That was my first thought, too. Well-armored melee combatants and squishies fighting from range very rarely take physical damage. But, Fireballs. I've had parties survive Fireball strikes because of high constitution more times than I can count. In late game, it also makes the difference between life and death when the party is inevitably hit with Horrid Wilting.
Anyways, for non-warriors, 16 CON is 20 HP difference by level 10. By level 10, mages have on average, just by the rolls without any CON bonuses, 4 (level 1 max) + 6 (familiar) + 9 (2.5) (average rolls of 1d4) = 32.5. A thief has 6 + 9 (3.5) = 37-38 hp. A bard gets a familiar to get to 43-44 hp. And a cleric/druid/monk/shaman (?) gets 8 + 9(4.5) = 48-49 hp. 20 hp represents an additional 40% of health to the healthiest of non-warrior classes.
Now, it's not impossible to have a functioning character with low CON, but it actively has to be worked with with the belt of fortitude in BG2 or potions in BG1. It's the reason why Aerie and Viconia are so darn squishy if they enter combat without protections, or if they ever get breached.
I don't know how you can protect your ranged squishies from damage all the time and still have them participate in a fight. I can position them as far as I want, someone always sneaks up on them or shoots at them, or there's too little space to put a distance between them and the attackers.
You might want to look at your formations. Don't run into enemies, make them come to you. Ranged enemies (without SCS) will attack the first characters they see, which should be your tanks. If the enemy (gnolls for example) start to move around your front line, they become priority targets for concentrated fire.
The front line's job is to keep casters free to cast and archers free to shoot. So, you can't attack enemy casters with your melee fighters if they have minions. You have to have your tanks hold the minions off while casters and archers take care of the enemy casters, which is their job. The main reason you need a mage in your party is to be your anti-mage, anti-cleric.
Apologies if you're already doing all that. I'm just trying to brainstorm and help with troubleshooting. I keep my party in tight military formation with very military style discipline and teamwork, so I rarely have any trouble with my lines breaking during straight up physical melee.
You might need to make better use of control spells like Sleep, Charm, Blind, Web and Confusion/Chaos. I don't know if spells like that bother your sense of honor, but I don't think they should. A paladin's code of ethics shouldn't mean she has to commit suicide, and lead others to commit suicide. The enemy isn't going to hesitate to do everything in their power to you. Once they're trying to kill you, you're in a war.
Where it gets tricky for me is when I have to fight parties of casters, like Durlag's emotions quartet guarding the seal to the lower floors there, where I know they're going to cast control spells like Horror and Confusion, and deadly AoE like Cloudkill. In those cases, your only hope is counterspelling and moving out of cloud effects.
I'm not above stationing my scout directly at the edge of the range of sight of strong enemy formations, placing my wizard directly behind my scout, and throwing every Web, Fireball and Cloud spell the wizard has at them, while my cleric throws in Silence for good measure.
In choke point situations like the yuan-ti mage in De'Arnise Castle on the second floor, I send in any summons I have to start soaking up spells, while my tanks block the door and fight trolls. If the enemy is trying to use a choke point, I try to turn the tables on them and use their own choke point against them. Having a scout "see" the mage and the trolls justifies immediately casting Remove Fear. If my scout gets spotted, I have them run back and try to use my waiting party as an ambush. I don't move around in hostile areas without Chaotic Commands cast on every party member. If Chaotic Commands wears off, we're out of there. Guerrilla tactics are required to succeed with a six person strike team against an entire enemy base.
And on-topic, I see high constitution as representing constant exercise and fitness training. In a world as dangerous as the Forgotten Realms, a person of any class who goes adventuring would have to be pretty low-wisdom to let their physical fitness slide.
@Arvia it sounds like you're playing with SCS or in SoD. You do need to keep your squishies out of sight of enemy archers, thieves and casters - that can often be done by using tanks to engage enemy tanks with a bit of a gap to the rest of the enemies (allowing you to shoot at the tanks). Alternatively you can just nip in and out of sight briefly once a round to fire off a shot. You won't be able to just let a fight run without constant intervention (as you can with the unmodded game) as SCS characters will often try and move around to improve their positioning during a fight. If you're using darts you might also want to reconsider that as the reduced range of those makes it very difficult to attack without being targeted.
the tactics can vary from player to player and the same player can have different tactics depending on the party, you can not play the same way solo, with a 3 people party and with a 6 people one, and having a physical damage oriented party, a magic heavy one or a more balanced one gives different options.
and still, even with a solo charname, how you (dynamically) place on the ground your toons and how you control the field is crucial.
@BelgarathMTH, you don't always need to squeeze in an advance apology. I know you're not criticizing, and you're absolutely right, I have to learn much more about strategy.
I have to pay much more attention to my formation, especially if the attackers are scattered. I would switch off the AI completely, but then I occasionally forget to give another command when somebody has killed their target.
It's not my paladin sense of honor that keeps me from using the spells you mentioned. When we're under attack, it's war, and we have to survive and protect ourselves, not the attackers.
(Okay, I do have a conscience problem with Charm Person in a battle, with backstabbing, and with summons, but that's all).
The bigger problem is that Dynaheir is an Invoker, and most of the spells you mentioned are Enchantment/Charm. So, no Sleep, Confusion, Emotion, Greater Malison, whatever else... I really miss Greater Malison. They always save against Yeslick's Silence spell.
I should maybe try to watch how other people position their party members in certain fights.
And I will probably have to play a cleric or mage next time to learn more.
With 16 Constitution, of course (back to the topic). I don't want to be fragile.
@DragonKing , Assuming you meant "flanked", that doesn't happen with careful formation and positioning. Getting flanked (again, I'm only talking about straight up physical melee battles, and my points don't apply to BG1 "you have been waylaid" surprise surround attacks) only happens when the player rushes her party into a mob of enemies with no attention whatsoever to formation and tactical oversight.
I also see an interesting insight here into player styles. We the posters almost seem to have very fundamental differences in our tactical points of view, almost like the World of Warcraft traditional roles. The "rush in, and you can't avoid getting flanked so just deal with it, and you might as well dump your constitution and AC" posters think like WoW DPS players.
I think like a WoW tank. (Lead, give orders, micromanage, keep control of the battlefield.) And some players (sometimes me too) think like healers, just wanting to protect everybody from control spells and keep hit points maxed.
There seems to be a fundamental divide between DPS gamers and tank/healer gamers. It's very interesting and amusing to me that a game like World of Warcraft can provide insights into real life personalities, and the same group of insights also applies to games like Baldur's Gate.
EDIT: Oh, and the BG AI will get you and your party killed, even with the EE improvements to it. That's because it makes party members countermand orders. BG fights are very military situations, and soldiers who don't follow orders get people killed. In the real life military, any "AI" executed by soldiers gets them decommissioned, court-martialed, and dishonorably discharged at the least, if not sent to prison, or sometimes even shot by firing squad during wartime.
EDIT2: Dynaheir or anybody else can use the Wand of Sleep sold by Thalantyr in High Hedge. That wand is always a high priority purchase for me if I'm not playing the party mage myself, or using Xan instead of Dynaheir. (Neera and Edwin are not options for me - Neera gets my party killed with her reckless wild surges, and Edwin is, "Well, I don't know, could you be less, um...evil?"
God I hate auto correct, yes I meant flanked.
And I have to disagree unless you are someone who already possessed wayward knowledge of a battle before either from past experience or researching the battle before had hand, its is quite possible to get flanked in a battle where you tried to carefully micro every character, but you don't realize that this current battle you're in is actually a split battle where more enemies come in from another direction.
I'm a mage player and my whole thing is stay in the back out of aggro and provide artillery damage or cc support. I've bee surprised once or twice with enemies coming out of nowhere and going ides of match on my main while I'm microing the tank or melee dps.
N, of course,so the rematch turns out much different because now I'm well aware of the oncoming gang grape and I can more properly position everyone
EDIT: It would be hard to say how much my metaknowledge contributes to my rarely ever getting flanked. It doesn't feel like it ever does, especially in BG1. I am *very* careful about how I push back the fog, inch by inch on my screen, and always with a stealthed scout whenever I'm not sure.
It's been a while but flank in in bg1 is less likely since not a large amount of battle were really drawn out nor were there many large amount of random summons in compared to bg2 and iwd.
I mean I did that as well, even on my first play through but meta knowledge still plays a part based on many factors which all of them probably couldn't be quantified.
I'm not a large fan on how drastically there game starts to shift in how I have to play it. So I have no choice but to multiclass because AC just doesn't mean crap anymore? Or I have to make my mage the tank by tossing every protection spell on him and toss him head first in battle... Ye that goes again every mage instinct I have.
Oh and none of that matter because every massive battle seems to just drop like half of my magical protection that I have to now recast and walk around with so many immunities that virus and bacteria are basically on strike at this point arguing for a fighting chance.
That and I just prefer the freedom bg1 gives and how the devs are A-holes!
Dev 1: hey, lets just put a enemy here out in the open that has a globe of protection! Lmao, the amount of cussing I did that day lmao.
@BelgarathMTH
To use as a dump stat the only one that benefits all classes does not strike me as a practical thing to do.
In fact I usually have the stat overhaul of scales of balance in every IE game I play because if not, cha, int and wis are useless for non-spellcasters.
Summons are so effective they can feel cheesy sometimes. The AI is so bad they'll just attack your endless waves of cannon fodder while you attack them with impunity.
That's not to say I'm above using summons ever of course, but after a run with Edwin got particularly unfun I try to rely on them less than is perhaps optimal.