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Infinity Engine Toolset / Open Source IE

Sar_YehudahSar_Yehudah Member Posts: 135
I’m not sure the best place to ask, and I suspect it’s unlikely to ever happen, but I want to request that the Infinity Engine and associated Toolsets be released publicly and/or opensource.
I ask this because IE is the most underrated development kit for building ADnD adventures. It could be used to develop games based on other rulesets as well.
This is a plea for access to the engine. So many amazing products could be made with these tools.
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Comments

  • RAM021RAM021 Member Posts: 403
    Make this so!
  • Sar_YehudahSar_Yehudah Member Posts: 135
    RAM021 wrote: »
    Make this so!

    YES PLEASE GOD IN HEAVEN!
    Come on Beamdog! Do it! We'll LOVE YOU FOREVER.
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,530
    I think GemRB might be along the lines of what you’re after?
  • Sar_YehudahSar_Yehudah Member Posts: 135
    I think GemRB might be along the lines of what you’re after?

    not really. it's making little progress. it can be solved overnight by beamdog.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited July 2019
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • Sar_YehudahSar_Yehudah Member Posts: 135
    The EE games already support multiple "campaigns" within each game, like having BG1, SoD, and Black Pits all together. EET combines BG1 and SoD into BG2, and soon(ish) will support the IWD and IWD2 campaigns. Argent77 has added the Trials of the Luremaster adventure to BG2. Et cetera. There's nothing stopping you from making new campaigns and adding them to this or that game.

    Of course a player would have to own one of the EE games to get the benefit, but that doesn't strike me as outrageous.

    Maybe there would be some benefit to this idea, but I don't understand what that benefit would be - at least from the initial post.

    People could develop their own campaigns possibly changing the core mechanics somewhat too. Open source = freedom for everyone to do what they want.
  • ALIENALIEN Member Posts: 1,271
    Maybe there would be some benefit to this idea, but I don't understand what that benefit would be - at least from the initial post.
    To give you an conception: just imagine all of the opcodes bugs fixed, now opcodes added (without EEEx manual engine/memory hacks), and all engine limitations removed.
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,530
    IMO, it’s more likely for GemRB to be completed than it is for the IE source code to be released free of charge to the public.
  • Sar_YehudahSar_Yehudah Member Posts: 135
    it doesnt look like GemRB is going anywhere :( since i was a boy I've loved the infinity engine games. Only now am I finally going thru them all and beating them through completion. I want to be able to, or at least have people with programming skills to be able to make new adventures.
  • AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 1,069
    The current state of IE modding absolutely enables you to create new zones/stories/etc. The real time limiter, in my opinion, is that area creation is absolutely awful and incredibly time-consuming (seriously go look up a guide on how to add a single new area and you'll understand why mods that do are so rare), and also the most essential part of making a new adventure (unless you're willing to reuse major tilesets).

    The engine can entertain a fair amount of hackery IMO (e.g. I can emulate something very similar to an advantage/disadvantage system with only about 40 layered spell triggers and some clever scripting/state checks), but it is not the most... friendly and I think that's where the problem lies. As charming and old-timey as the IE is, it is generally easier to generate your own isometric engine via Unity/Unreal/whatever than it is to mess with the IE source code to make it more accessible for customization.

    Also just because something is open-source does not mean that it is stable, robust, or accessible. Given enough time and effort, yes, those problems could be resolved, but it would probably be a more productive approach to start from scratch than to tear it apart and put it back together. Just some random 6am thoughts.
  • Sar_YehudahSar_Yehudah Member Posts: 135
    But it's still significantly limited. It doesn't necessarily have to be open source, but open source is the option which might be least time consuming for Beamdog. But I doubt that they would want to do that since it's always possible they'll decide to make a whole new game with it, not wanting to necessarily give up a monopoly on it.. I don't think they will, and with them making Axis and Allies, I worry they are abandoning the primary reason why I came here.
  • Sar_YehudahSar_Yehudah Member Posts: 135
    Im out to go to the dr. Possibly bad news. I want to keep this thread going. I LOVED the battle at the crusader camp. I brought the flaming fist with me. I would love to create my own adventures with large pitched battles like this. Imagine creating your own adventure, playing it coop with friends, using IFE assets which make it get built faster.
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,530
    Hope the news won’t be bad!
  • Sar_YehudahSar_Yehudah Member Posts: 135
    Aquadrizzt, if creating new areas for via modding is very time consuming and modding requires hackery, thats all the more reason why we need the engine available and open source. I dont know all of that hackery is needex if you have the actual tools, if so, it costs beamdog nothing to have the community improve it.
  • Sar_YehudahSar_Yehudah Member Posts: 135
    Hope the news won’t be bad!

    Thanks. Me too.
  • Sar_YehudahSar_Yehudah Member Posts: 135
    i have a bizarre idea about a quasi tactical game based on 2nd edition and the IE titles, if anyone is interested in.pming me. Ill be back later
  • lefreutlefreut Member Posts: 1,462
    Aquadrizzt, if creating new areas for via modding is very time consuming and modding requires hackery, thats all the more reason why we need the engine available and open source. I dont know all of that hackery is needex if you have the actual tools, if so, it costs beamdog nothing to have the community improve it.

    I'd like to see the source code released but it won't solve this problem. The devs have said multiple times that they won't do new games based on the IE engine because it's too hard to create new content and they have the source code. The big problem is that I don't think they have a toolset.
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,530
    Creating new content is technically possible even without access to the source code—there are already mods out there that add areas, animations from other games, soundsets, etc.. There are even a couple total conversions, though I don't believe they are finished; then again, a total conversion is a huge time sink and doing it in your free time without being paid is inevitably going to burn you out at some point.

    Source code access would enable the community to keep fixing engine bugs and add features, though it would take programmers (but I can think of at least four that would be all hands on deck if the source code were released.)
  • Sar_YehudahSar_Yehudah Member Posts: 135
    alright so its bad news. 99% chance I have crohns. tho it's mild. that's on top of another immune problem.
    Anyway, i freely admit i'm not technically adept enough to comment with authority. However if they released the sourcecode, I imagine it would be possible for a community created toolset to be made, considering there's multiple editing and hacking tools without the sourcecode.
  • Sar_YehudahSar_Yehudah Member Posts: 135
    edited July 2019
    Excuse the incoherency of what I'm going to say. Everything I'm saying would be within 2nd Edition ADnD rules I suppose.

    Because of the absurd amount of loot i've collected over time just in BG1 (and I need to go back and complete all of the dungeons in it too, I didn't know it would force me directly into a linear Dragonspear) and part way through Dragonspear, I've felt the nesting compulsion to hand over munitions to an army I don't have, along with armor, weapons, and supplies. I don't know how silly this sounds, but I wish I had my own little city state, with an army, that I can send on missions of my choosing with the horde of goodies I've collected.

    Anyway, the battle with the crusader camp made me think of an adventure which features either A) a lot of pitched battles like the one mentioned, or B ) one which involves my own army of npcs which improve over time.
    Post edited by Sar_Yehudah on
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,754
    @Sar_Yehudah Sorry to hear. I hope with due medical treatment you will be able to control the decease.
  • Sar_YehudahSar_Yehudah Member Posts: 135
    @Sar_Yehudah Sorry to hear. I hope with due medical treatment you will be able to control the decease.

    Thanks. I'll be okay. I don't think it'll come to having to live with a shit bag.
    Please Julius relay my request to Beamdog. I don't think it benefits them to sit on IE sourcecode indefinitely unless they actually are going to make new games with it.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,754
    I think Trent once mentioned they would open the source code in case Beamdog goes out of business. I don't believe what you're requesting is possible while there are so many copyright holders involved, including WotC.
  • Sar_YehudahSar_Yehudah Member Posts: 135
    I think Trent once mentioned they would open the source code in case Beamdog goes out of business. I don't believe what you're requesting is possible while there are so many copyright holders involved, including WotC.

    I see. I was worried that was the case. Is it true there is no toolset?
  • ALIENALIEN Member Posts: 1,271
    @JuliusBorisov Are you aware how John Carmack, author of Doom, Quake and others, released the source code for every game (before 'id software' was sold to ZeniMax) and because of it, all those games has now infinite community support? And people still buy it. It could give all of the Infinity Engine games a third life and extra long-term money.
  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,438
    Is it true there is no toolset?

    Yes. I can think of only one bespoke tool--a command-line utility that builds BAMs from PNGs during the build process. Otherwise, everything we use is the same that modders use: WeiDU, Near Infinity, DLTCEP, etc.

    The problem with large-scale projects has never been the tools, but the time.
  • ALIENALIEN Member Posts: 1,271
    CamDawg wrote: »
    The problem with large-scale projects has never been the tools, but the time.
    But the good tools and automation can save huge amount of time, right?
  • Sar_YehudahSar_Yehudah Member Posts: 135
    ALIEN wrote: »
    @JuliusBorisov Are you aware how John Carmack, author of Doom, Quake and others, released the source code for every game (before 'id software' was sold to ZeniMax) and because of it, all those games has now infinite community support? And people still buy it. It could give all of the Infinity Engine games a third life and extra long-term money.

    THIS
    @JuliusBorisov
  • Sar_YehudahSar_Yehudah Member Posts: 135
    @JuliusBorisov
    if you guys released the IE source code, you should realize that sales are likely to skyrocket due to the modding / content creation potential. For example, Jedi Academy has its source code released, and will be supported, with custom content, untl the end of time. But Lucasarts (or Disney a this point) still makes money off of every sale.
  • Sar_YehudahSar_Yehudah Member Posts: 135
    come on guys..... there is no tool more powerful for building new AD&D adventures....
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