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Having problems about the exp cap

Hi! I'm reading that the exp cap of the game makes you able to get to aprox level 10... But all classes have abilities at further levels. What is an Assassin if it's capped at lvl10? You won't gain the backstab benefits, you'll have the same as a normal Thief, but with the penalties from the class... And go on. Is this intentional and how it works? I have to choose a class taking into account I won't pass over lvl10? And I'm not talking about multiclass, that lowers the level...

Comments

  • ElysianEchoesElysianEchoes Member Posts: 416
    edited August 6
    An assassin in Baldur's Gate 1 will indeed have the same backstab multiplier as a normal thief, and much fewer skill points than a normal thief, but will have poison weapon ability that a normal thief does not.

    Edit: assassin also gets the +1 to attack and damage, which is pretty helpful in the first game.

    If you're not going to take the character into the sequel, then it's only worth playing assassin if you want the poison weapon ability.

    But, yes, it is intentional.

    ThacoBell
  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 2,238
    edited August 6
    No, it's not intentional. The assassin kit in the Baldur's Gate games was first introduced in the original Baldur's Gate 2, where the XP cap was higher and assassins could reach the x6 and x7 multipliers. The Baldur's Gate 2 devs weren't thinking about the Baldur's Gate 1 XP cap when they designed the assassin kit. The EEs ported the kits from Baldur's Gate 2 to Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition and didn't change the assassin's backstab progression.

    My tweak mod has a component that lets assassins improve their backstab multiplier faster than other thieves.

    ThacoBell
  • RazielLewachRazielLewach Member Posts: 5
    Oh, thank you! And how about multiclass? I see that with single class you can get like lvl10, and multiclass you can get like lvl7/8. Overall level is higher but the thief level is lower. You get more or less points for the skills? For ex Hide in shadows, Pickpocket... you can put more points if single class (lvl10) or more if multi (lvl7 and lvl8)?

  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 2,238
    Multiclassed thieves get the same number of skill points per level, but only when they level up as a thief. A level 7/8 fighter/thief would have the same number of skill points as a level 8 thief.

    ThacoBell
  • RazielLewachRazielLewach Member Posts: 5
    edited August 6
    I see. So, being exp capped, being solo thief max lvl10, but being multiclass and having to divide the exp between 2 classes reaching 7/8... solothief gets more skill points than multiclass thief and sooner... I'm taking that into account to take a solo thief, so I will have more levels to get hiding into shadows.

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,509
    I see. So, being exp capped, being solo thief max lvl10, but being multiclass and having to divide the exp between 2 classes reaching 7/8... solothief gets more skill points than multiclass thief and sooner... I'm taking that into account to take a solo thief, so I will have more levels to get hiding into shadows.

    there are 2 items in the game that will help improve your; hide in shadows/move silently skills:
    shadow armor +3 sold by the black smith in beregost

    and the boots of stealth, which can be found on a hobgoblin south of beregost, or pick pocketed from a dwarf ( Nadarin ) in BG the city

    plus if you find the tome of dexterity and give it to your thief it will also improve your hide in shadows/ move silently

    ilduderino
  • SandkatzeSandkatze Member Posts: 29
    solo thief 10 and multi fighter - thief 7/8 got pros and cons
    solo thief = more points in their skills and with save/reload at each lvl up for max HP you get about 100
    but equipmentwise...
    on the other hand a fighter - thief loses about 10 - 15 HP and some points in his skills but gets in return more equipment he could use, which boosts his AC and THAC0.

    so its up to your preferences.

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,509
    Sandkatze wrote: »
    solo thief 10 and multi fighter - thief 7/8 got pros and cons
    solo thief = more points in their skills and with save/reload at each lvl up for max HP you get about 100
    but equipmentwise...
    on the other hand a fighter - thief loses about 10 - 15 HP and some points in his skills but gets in return more equipment he could use, which boosts his AC and THAC0.

    so its up to your preferences.

    there is an option to turn on max HP on level ups in the options menu

    at level 10, a thief can have up to 80 HP

    a level 7/8 multi-class thief with 18 CON would have 89 HP
    with 19 CON and a helm of balduran it would have 102 HP

    the only disadvantage of a multi-class thief is that your multiplier hits x3 and you lose out on up to 50 skill points ( if you were a full swashbuckler or thief )

    but on the flip side, you will actually have To Hit, so you can hit with those backstabs, have attacks per round, deal some decent damage ( especially for the fact that you can use STR potions or even have 19 STR if you are a half-orc or 18/00 STR if you are a dwarf/elf/halfelf/gnome )

    so now that i think of it, a multi-class thief is almost better than a normal thief especially if you want to backstab strictly for the fact that you can have some huge STR ( well, for at least BG 1's sake )



    joluvThacoBellleeux
  • SandkatzeSandkatze Member Posts: 29
    edited August 6
    about that hit points
    thief got 1d6 + con multi which at 18 should be 4, so 10 per lvl at lvl 10 should be 100 or did they change something, because if they did, then that 89 shouldn't be 89.

    fighter got 1d10 + con multi so 14 x 7 = 98 / 2 = 49 and thief got 10 x 8 = 80 / 2 = 40 + 49 = 89

    either both are true or both are false. an "in between" ins't really possible with these rules ^^'

    Edit: Damn. just reread the table... for fighter at con 18 its 4 but only 2 for thiefs so thief 10 at 80 HP is actually right and that multi is wrong. 49 from fighter is true but its only 8 x 8 for the thief part = 64 / 2 = 32 + 49 = 81

  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 187
    sarevok57 wrote: »
    so now that i think of it, a multi-class thief is almost better than a normal thief especially if you want to backstab strictly for the fact that you can have some huge STR ( well, for at least BG 1's sake )
    Strength? No, everything else. Bonus damage from strength doesn't get multiplied in a backstab, so it's not that important to a backstabbing thief. Coran can wear gauntlets to give him 18/00 strength (Ogre Strength) or to grant +2 damage (Weapon Expertise). Since that +2 gets tripled by his backstab multiplier, it's just as much damage on a backstab as the +6 strength bonus the other option gives him.
    You'll still drink strength potions when things get tough, of course.

    What fighter-thieves do get that really helps backstabbing is the specialization bonus, and that's overshadowed by the dual-class version that can go beyond specialization in a weapon. The ultimate most powerful possible backstabber in BG1 is a Berserker 6/Thief 9 with GM in a weapon. Backstabbing under the influence of Rage, you can guarantee 50+ damage.
    Then again, dual-classing that early is only really worth it if you're stopping at Sarevok. If you're planning to play on into BG2, a later dual is strongly recommended, and you'll be playing BG1 as a pure fighter. Multiclassing gets you somewhat less power there, but it's a smooth progression through all of the games.

    Oh, and don't wear the boots of stealth past your first few levels. The boots of speed are much better for a backstabbing thief; once you stab one enemy, you'll want to get out of there before his friends can retaliate.

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,509
    jmerry wrote: »
    sarevok57 wrote: »
    so now that i think of it, a multi-class thief is almost better than a normal thief especially if you want to backstab strictly for the fact that you can have some huge STR ( well, for at least BG 1's sake )
    Strength? No, everything else. Bonus damage from strength doesn't get multiplied in a backstab, so it's not that important to a backstabbing thief. Coran can wear gauntlets to give him 18/00 strength (Ogre Strength) or to grant +2 damage (Weapon Expertise). Since that +2 gets tripled by his backstab multiplier, it's just as much damage on a backstab as the +6 strength bonus the other option gives him.
    You'll still drink strength potions when things get tough, of course.

    What fighter-thieves do get that really helps backstabbing is the specialization bonus, and that's overshadowed by the dual-class version that can go beyond specialization in a weapon. The ultimate most powerful possible backstabber in BG1 is a Berserker 6/Thief 9 with GM in a weapon. Backstabbing under the influence of Rage, you can guarantee 50+ damage.
    Then again, dual-classing that early is only really worth it if you're stopping at Sarevok. If you're planning to play on into BG2, a later dual is strongly recommended, and you'll be playing BG1 as a pure fighter. Multiclassing gets you somewhat less power there, but it's a smooth progression through all of the games.

    Oh, and don't wear the boots of stealth past your first few levels. The boots of speed are much better for a backstabbing thief; once you stab one enemy, you'll want to get out of there before his friends can retaliate.

    ah, so the EEs got rid of STR bonus from backstabs? interesting, personally a virtually never backstab so i haven't seen the difference

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,509
    Sandkatze wrote: »
    about that hit points
    thief got 1d6 + con multi which at 18 should be 4, so 10 per lvl at lvl 10 should be 100 or did they change something, because if they did, then that 89 shouldn't be 89.

    fighter got 1d10 + con multi so 14 x 7 = 98 / 2 = 49 and thief got 10 x 8 = 80 / 2 = 40 + 49 = 89

    either both are true or both are false. an "in between" ins't really possible with these rules ^^'

    Edit: Damn. just reread the table... for fighter at con 18 its 4 but only 2 for thiefs so thief 10 at 80 HP is actually right and that multi is wrong. 49 from fighter is true but its only 8 x 8 for the thief part = 64 / 2 = 32 + 49 = 81

    a fighter/thief rolls "d8" HP - d5+d3 -
    then the constitution bonus gets shared between the two, sometimes the higher bonus goes towards the thief side if you have say a +3,+5 or +7 HP bonus ( since the thief side is usually higher level )

    so at level 7/8

    base HP for fighter is 35 + 14 = 49
    base HP for thief is 24 + 16 = 40

    so max HP for a fighter/thief with 18 CON at level 7/8 is 89
    i just made a new game, fighter/thief with 18 CON set XP to 161 000 and kept max HP on

    c3w4d1pa542r.jpg


  • SandkatzeSandkatze Member Posts: 29
    edited August 7
    hmm... i see the difference and the evidence.
    its "just" 8 HP but by logic my math should be right, so what did i do wrong or is that table just not right??

    source of info:
    https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Hit_Dice
    https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Constitution

  • RazielLewachRazielLewach Member Posts: 5
    Wow, nice debate :)

    I knew that the STR bonus is not multiplied (in the wiki, it's outside of the multiplier part of the formula). Still I have MAX STR and MAX CON (starting with good numbers in stats).

    Well, I kinda knew that fighter-thief had better damage from proficiencies for backstabs... At the end I chose full Assassin, going for the Baldur Gate 2 extra backstab damages and the poison. I thought that having that poison would be nice when the enemy is inmune to backstab, and if not, it's also a great starting tool. And I prefer going solo Assassin so I can maximize Hide In Shadows and Move Silently earlier (at the end of BG1 or before). I'm kinda worried specially not being Thief-Mage... and not having invisibility spell if needed. But i kinda like... knowing I have to rely on my normal hiding ability. If the hiding doesn't work with a boss, invisibility won't also work, so... In that situation, POISON IN THE FACE.

    The only thing I did not have clear was the weapon. I choose staff so I have the +1 damage bonus from proficiency (that is multiplied) and the 1d6, also being 2handed made it generally better (also the +10 damage staff but meh). I really wanted to backstab with a dagger but... The damage was too low. I dont know if I made the right decision, specially because the speed factor and the difficulty to backstab a moving opponent that maybe the dagger doesn't have. I will edit the savegame to change weapon proficiency if necessary, I had enough restarts xDDDD

    I'm still getting used to the "hide, backstab, run, cut line of sight, hide, repeat" while my team fights, I see future in that for now. But who knows...

    Thanks for the responses :)

  • SandkatzeSandkatze Member Posts: 29
    i've only got BG vanilla, so i'm somewhat stuck on equipment but hey that doesn't stop me from asking questions.

    that poison you're talking of is it an innate skill, like coating any weapon or is it bound to weapons?
    is it possible to stack poison attributes?

    my idea would be to use the dagger of venom from beregost and stack it with the poison skill. if it works, it should solve the speed and damage factor. sure, inital dmg from dagger is crap but it's speedy and there are 2 poisons doing their magic. that brings me to another question.

    is it possible to equip 2 dagger of venom and coating each of them with poison?
    Because that would make it 4x poison magic ^^

    as for invisibility spell, you still got the potions with same effect.

  • ElysianEchoesElysianEchoes Member Posts: 416
    POISON IN THE FACE
    😂

    @Sandkatze , the poison ability works on any weapon.

    A favorite tactic of assassin players is to use Poison Weapon with darts. 3 attacks a round, and the poison damage applies to then all, and just keeps stacking. I hear it's been nerfed some in ee, though.

  • RazielLewachRazielLewach Member Posts: 5
    That's amazing mechanically, but cheesy. I refuse myself to use ranged weapons because they are easy mode, targeted and gogogo. Poisoned weapon with darts... So easy xD That's why I force myself to only melee and backstab, that requires skill to use (using your environment, hiding well, going for the back...). I have a Crossbow in case the enemy is inmune to melee and I really need it, but I never use it xDDD

    Yeah. I'll think about potions of invisibility. For now I played more and I fell in love with the Assassin. The poison is just so wonderful to use in heavy bosses and certain situations, and the backstabs are amazing. I hope I don't need to buy invisibility potions and I can rely only on my hiding. I don't like using potions, I feel them cheap >_<

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,509
    Sandkatze wrote: »
    hmm... i see the difference and the evidence.
    its "just" 8 HP but by logic my math should be right, so what did i do wrong or is that table just not right??

    source of info:
    https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Hit_Dice
    https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Constitution

    its kind of weird how they calculate HP for multi class, but if you are going to do it that way, you can divide the base HP by 2, but then you have to add the bonus HP on afterwards

    hence what i said above where technically a fighter gains "d5" HP and a thief gains "d3" HP for a multi class because with CON 18, the fighter gains a +2 bonus ( d5+2, for a max of 7 on level ups ) while the thief gains ( d3+2, for a max of 5 on level ups )

    those wiki calculations divide everything by 2 including the bonus HP at the wrong time, hence the reason why they are off a bit

    and then when you get a +5 bonus to HP ( CON 19 ) one of the classes will get +2, and the other will get +3, i want to say the fighter gets the +3 bonus, but if the thief class is 2 levels higher i believe it starts getting the +3, not 100% sure, but i believe that is how it works

    in the end, if you have "gain max HP on level ups on" you should be good to go :)

  • SandkatzeSandkatze Member Posts: 29
    edited August 7
    i don't have that option, so i need to work with the table and my character sheet to figure out how much i could get + save / reload to get what i want.

    on the other hand, i don't like the mechanic. just because one is higher than the other he will get the bonus is meh...
    if it where at con 18 a bonus of +4 for fighter and a +2 for thief = 6 / 2 = 3 for every lvl up or it would be calculated seperately every lvl up it would sit very much better with me.

  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 187
    edited August 7
    Fighter multiclasses get the fighter constitution bonus, divided evenly among classes. The somewhat confusing details follow below.

    A multiclass gets hit die rolls at each level that the base classes would. For example, a fighter/thief gets rolls at each of the first 9 fighter levels and each of the first 10 thief levels. These roll as if it were a normal character of that class and then divide by the number of classes, rounding down with a minimum of 1. When gaining multiple levels simultaneously, the hit point gains are added together before dividing and rounding down, which can result in slightly more hit points.
    Constitution bonuses are applied at the first 9*2 levels, or 10*2 in the case of a thief/mage multiclass, or 9*3 in the case of a triple-class. These bonuses are divided by 2 and rounded down; for example, a fighter 6/thief 7 multiclass with 19 Con gets 32 bonus HP from Con, rounded down from 13*2.5 = 32.5.
    Note that in some cases, this can apply a Con bonus to a level-up that gets a fixed number of hit points instead of a roll, or have a level-up with a roll but no Con bonuses. For example, a fighter/druid multiclass gets Con bonuses at each of the first 8 fighter levels and each of the first 10 druid levels, but hit die rolls at the first 9 levels of each class.

    A dual-class character, on the other hand, gets the hit die and Con bonus of whichever class is active for the first time that number of hit dice is reached, with the exception that a character who has already reached 9th level in a warrior or priest class can't get a 10th Con bonus in a class they dual to. A fighter 9/thief gets a d6 hit die at thief level 10, but no Con bonus there. A fighter 7/thief instead gets d6 hit die rolls and Con bonuses capped at 2 at thief levels 8, 9, and 10.

    In all cases, hit die rolls and constitution bonuses are calculated separately, so that the Con bonus can be changed dynamically as effects change the character's constitution score.
    Sandkatze wrote: »
    i don't have that option, so i need to work with the table and my character sheet to figure out how much i could get + save / reload to get what i want.
    The option is under "Gameplay Options"; you'll have to scroll down to see it. Alternatively, lowering difficulty to "Normal" or lower also gives you maximum hit points on each level-up hit die roll.

  • SandkatzeSandkatze Member Posts: 29
    edited August 7
    jmerry wrote: »
    The option is under "Gameplay Options"; you'll have to scroll down to see it. Alternatively, lowering difficulty to "Normal" or lower also gives you maximum hit points on each level-up hit die roll.

    BG V.1.1.4 315 vanilla, 89k exp cap, no mods, no nothing. as for difficulty, still on "default" which should be normal.
    and since it's a game based on rules which are working with dice, even if i got this option, after using it once or twice i would turn it off but that's only my preference.
    bwynt5qtqkka.png

  • Very_BigSwordVery_BigSword Member Posts: 115
    POISON IN THE FACE
    😂

    @Sandkatze , the poison ability works on any weapon.

    A favorite tactic of assassin players is to use Poison Weapon with darts. 3 attacks a round, and the poison damage applies to then all, and just keeps stacking. I hear it's been nerfed some in ee, though.

    In the EE the poison effect can only be applied once per round, therefore no crazy stacking with multiple APR like the old days. On the other hand poison darts are still excellent because you force the save for every hit so three opportunities in the round for poison to take effect.

    Dagger of venom backstab followed by kiting with poison darts is pretty nasty. Especially if they are darts of wounding >:)

    ElysianEchoes
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 187
    edited August 8
    Sandkatze wrote: »
    BG V.1.14 315 vanilla, 89k exp cap, no mods, no nothing. as for difficulty, still on "default" which should be normal.
    Ah - the only version I'm familiar with is the EE. The difficulties on the slider in that version are, in order from easiest to hardest, "Easy", "Normal", "Core Rules", "Hard", and "Insane".

    Of course, in your version, you can't have a kit in BG1 or reach Thief 9 even as a single class. It's clearly not the version most of the thread is about.

    The data I have reported is based on EE version 2.5, and may be different in earlier versions. One thing that I know has changed is the way hit dice are rolled if you don't have maximum rolls on. Currently, it's done by rolling twice and taking the better score; this is likely what was intended all along, as can be seen by looking at starting hit points for recruitable NPCs. In the EE before version 2.0, the system rolled once instead. (Well, once that mattered)

  • ElysianEchoesElysianEchoes Member Posts: 416
    POISON IN THE FACE
    😂

    @Sandkatze , the poison ability works on any weapon.

    A favorite tactic of assassin players is to use Poison Weapon with darts. 3 attacks a round, and the poison damage applies to then all, and just keeps stacking. I hear it's been nerfed some in ee, though.

    In the EE the poison effect can only be applied once per round, therefore no crazy stacking with multiple APR like the old days.
    That must be the nerf I heard of. Thanks for setting it straight.

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