Advice on playing a Thief
Batdragon123
Member Posts: 13
Hey everyone, hope you are well.
I'm thinking of starting through a new game as a Thief fairly soon and would like some additional advice. Although I am quite a seasoned player I have never used a thief before and any thieves in my party are usually, sadly delegated to just finding traps and occasionally backstapping the odd lone enemy.
So I suppose my question is, how do you get the most out of a thief?
- Race?
- Subclass?
- Stats?
I am currently running through as a paladin with a troupe of six so I thought it might be a nice change of pace to be either evil, have fewer companions or a mixture of the two. Any ideas would be great?
Thanks in advance!
I'm thinking of starting through a new game as a Thief fairly soon and would like some additional advice. Although I am quite a seasoned player I have never used a thief before and any thieves in my party are usually, sadly delegated to just finding traps and occasionally backstapping the odd lone enemy.
So I suppose my question is, how do you get the most out of a thief?
- Race?
- Subclass?
- Stats?
I am currently running through as a paladin with a troupe of six so I thought it might be a nice change of pace to be either evil, have fewer companions or a mixture of the two. Any ideas would be great?
Thanks in advance!
1
Comments
So, this option involves:
Race -> Human
Class -> Fighter (pure or kit, it depends on you, i like kensai/thieves)
Stats -> 18/91+,18,18,x,x,x
So, without mods or level cap removers, you'll get in BG a level 7 fighter, level 8 thief; this character is quite strong and versatile.
If you want to wait you could biclass at level 9 or even 13 (for maximizing fighter class bonuses), but like this you will play all bg like a fighter and wait till bg2 before dual.
However something you can do is dual into a mage and that can make for a very powerful and flexible class. Being able to turn invisible at will without using up your action is nothing to sniff at, especially for a mage who could be prone to getting caught out.
I find with dual-classing it is best to do it as early as possible otherwise when you start your new class it feels like you are playing a completely different character. Loads of times in the past I have started characters intending to dual them at the optimum point (9th level or 13th level or whatever) and when the time has come I haven't wanted to change anymore - or worse I have dualed and instantly regretted it and given up on the character completely.
If you want the most powerful character and if roleplaying is not a big concern, definitely do not go with a single classed thief. But if you do enjoy roleplaying and like the class fantasy of the thief, I highly recommend a plain unkitted thief.
If you can come up with a good personality for your character and really get into the spirit of roleplaying, playing a thief can be very satisfying. But to really get the most out of a single class thief, you have to be comfortable with playing that kind of character.
I personally found it quite challenging to play as a thief at first, because my natural inclination is towards a fighter/mage or a sorcerer type character (and I would play these two even if they weren't so overpowered, simply because they suit me). But once I let go of my old habits and really tried to play a thief as a thief, it quickly became the best roleplaying experience I've ever had outside of PnP.
My female halfling neutral evil thief started in Candlekeep as a lowly nobody and by the end of the saga she was the only bhaalspawn left standing. Of course she made sure to pick up all the most capable evil PC's, but what really made it so fun was the fact that I played her as a commander. She was the scout, trap setter, disarmer, pickpocketer, backstabber and charismatic leader all in one. She seldom engaged in combat because that was simply beneath her (unless she really felt like backstabbing someone, then she did it with great satisfaction). She preferred to let her party do all the dirty work while she took care of all the classy things. I played her with 19 dex, 18 cha and 17 int and roleplayed her accordingly. She was a criminal mastermind and it was so much fun.
Because she was a single classed thief (and halfling with 19 dex helps of course) she had more than enough thieving points to almost literally do everything as a thief at every point in the saga. I never felt that she was not pulling her weight, in fact she was overall much more influential than Viconia. Obviously Edwin and Korgan were a class of their own, but she could never compete with that anyway, nor did she have a desire to.
Just my 2 cents
So after reading through this its apparent I should have clarified something initially. I am not too interested in power gaming and I'm more of a roleplayer. Getting into the mind of my character is paramount!
I've had a couple of ideas
- Human Assassin, sounds kind of fun but I always get the impression assassins to have to act all..... dark all time? If that makes?
- Half-Elf Swashbuckler, I've always loved the idea of a character who had a way with words and a sort of duelist but perhaps his singing voice was not quite up to scratch to be a bard, hence the swashbuckler. This, however, is a more a class issue for me..... I can't help but feel a swashbuckler is just like playing a sort of weakened fighter due to no backstab? Therefore I may not get the best experience out of being a thief...
- Half-Orc Bounty Hunter, something I have also always found intriguing.
Assassins don't necessarily need to be dark all the time. A femme fatale or a james bond kind of guy are a fun type of assassin, for instance.
Swashbucklers are a great class to RP and are mechanically consistent throughout the whole series , go for it if you feel like it!
A 20 swashbuckler does 7-14 + str per attack per round. Dual wield with haste, that's 21-42 + str * 3 damage per round. He would have +5 to hit from swash bonus to hit and specialization, and can still get a +4 from attacking from stealth, too, for the first attack.
I don't consider the swashie gimped because of no backstab.
Oh, that is barely scratching the surface of what backstab can do. It doesn't just multiply the weapon's base damage - it also multiplies anything you gain from enchantment, proficiency bonuses, class abilities, or basically anything that increases physical damage except strength. If you start optimizing for backstab... let's make that a fighter-thief dual, wielding a +3 longsword with grandmastery, with weapon expertise gauntlets. Now that sword is dealing 1d8 + 10 + strength, for (5x) backstabs of 55-90 + strength. That can be increased further with fighter kits, particularly Kensai. An optimized backstabber will often be able to kill enemies in one hit, and not just the low-level minions. I've gotten one-hit kills on Fire Giants before.
Also, "once per round" isn't the limit you're making it out to be. With a well-made backstabber, you hit the enemy and run away, then repeat. You don't have your party enter general combat, and you don't give the enemy a real chance to hit you back. It's a very different style, and comparing with simple damage rates just doesn't work. On that note, the single most important piece of equipment for a backstabber? Boots of speed. Being able to retreat and come back later outshines every other improvement to your offense or defense.
When you can't avoid the fight anymore and the party enters general combat, that's the time for the swashbuckler to shine. The damage bonus is enough to keep them relevant even without warrior bonus attacks, and the AC bonus is something truly unique.
Now, I will say that removing backstabs from the swashbuckler is absolutely necessary for any semblance of balance. If the kit could backstab at all, it would be far too good at it.
Swashbuckler also benefits from all those damage boosts, up to ten times per round once they get HLA's.
In general, if you don’t want to micromanage too much, have your thief start off a fight by backstabbing and hopefully killing a mage, and then get out of dodge while the rest of your party closing in. Or make a series of traps and kill your opponents that way. Or if you don’t care about a bit if cheese, get your mage to cast Blindness on your thief, and set traps in the middle of your opponents during the fight for massive area of effect damage.
The one area where singleclass thieves do bring something genuinely unique to the table is their backstab. Even there though, I'd argue you'd generally be better off as a mage/thief because that way you could backstab at will through the invisibility spell and better off still as a fighter/mage/thief for the extra weapon pips and APR. Though @Neverused is certainly right that you can go part of the way in this direction by having your party's mage buff the singleclass thief as needed.
My favourite thief ability in the long run is detect illusion, which is superb against mages, combined with backstab can deal easily with mages.
Having both the cleric and the thief in one character allows you to fit more warriors and wizards in the group.
Not to mention the usefulness of Sanctuary spell when doing thief stuff. Disarm traps, open locks, steal stuff all right in front of enemies/victims.
In BG I like using Aura the mod NPC in this role and then I can dual Imoen when I like.
The downside is that you will not dish out the serious pain of certain classes with min/maxes stats (kensai/thief, kensai/mage, fighter/mage multi etc).
If there were some way to increase the apr of a cleric/thief they would be much more attractive.
Elf is very good btw, getting a bonus with certain swords and bows, 2 conveniently very strong picks. Elf also starts with 19 dex, so they are exceedingly good archers.
I found solo swashbuckler was pretty strong, especially once you get 19 str. I would concentrate mostly on using a shortbow early, when you have only 2 pips and few abilities, so start with longsword and shortbow. Feel free to wear the stealth boots and armour, even not being able to backstab you can use stealth for short scouting missions, and benefit from a free first attack. Traps are a good choice for a swashie, who should be able to get 95 in disarm/open, which is good enough, and still be good at setting traps. Traps with careful use of the Necklace of Missiles and possibly Arrows of Detonation can massacre most threats, and Acid Arrows work pretty dang good too. I took spec in longswords before DWing, as thief THAC0 is poor, especially early.
A BH has even better traps, and with a final 20 dex, you should again be pretty self-sufficient. You are a bit worse as an archer, but not wildly worse. Consider stockpiling invisibilty sources to backstab Sarevok to death. Remember that staffs are a very good backstab choice, and since you lack combat bonuses, you might really want a +3 backstabbing weapon that gets an extra +1 damage. Staff of Striking is a good tool too, but harder to get to. Note, if you do this, wait a full round to try and backstab, as you need to be able to go invisible very, very quickly. Boots and Oil of Speed very strongly encouraged, and use a strong area attack vs the final party to open, with traps set to kill Semaj. I think you can still throw BH traps, so these are like very OP fireballs, but I think they mostly deal missile damage, so Battle Horrors will laugh these off.
Assassin should decide if you how you intend to play. If solo, will you do Durlags? If not, the only important difficult locked containers are Candlekeep, and you can easily use potions to open them, but clear the whole map before drinking potions, because those spiders might force a rest. Iirc, you can very happily get by with surprisingly low disarm/open if you skip the expansion, and a pure solo assassin will get nearly nothing worth bothering with. Assassin should definitely be elf, and again, consider LS and SB, but take SWS perhaps for 3rd pip, for better backstabbing. If your assassin has a party, hooray! You can concentrate on stealth, and ignore OL/DT completely, and deliver very nasty backstabs. A solo assassin's poison is pretty useful, so use it for hard fights. Consider poisoning from ranged, retreating after it runs out, then hiding and BSing the weakened enemy. Big trick that used to work was Poison and Arrows of Detonation, which incidently deals the missile damage to each target blasted, and thus poisons them. Ver evil!
A Halfer Assassin using darts can be nice, but iirc, you can't stack poison, so you could poison 3 targets in a round. I prefer elf though, starting at 18 str is wildly better than 17 with the manual.
A great thing about thieves is basically every race is a valid option, unlike many other classes where a certain race/class combo is clearly superior.
Human: Advantage is being able to dual-class to or from thief with many interesting combos due to being able to use kits (e.g. the infamous Kensai->Thief acquiring Use Any Item high level ability late-game).
Half-Elf: Probably the worst option but still not a bad character by any means.
Elf: A great option for the 19 Dexterity and elven weapon advantages (Long Swords, Short Swords, and Bows are all typical thief weapons). The maximum 17 Constitution doesn't even matter unless you're doing Fighter/Thief or Fighter/Mage/Thief. Excellent option for single-class thieves and Mage/Thieves in particular.
Gnome: Illusionist/Thief is a multi-class with some excellent synergy even greater than that of a typical Mage/Thief. Also worth noting that Gnomes get an automatic +10% in the Detect Illusions category. Constitution-based Saving Throw bonuses are worth noting as well.
Halfling: Halflings are basically made to be thieves. With a possible 19 Dexterity and the highest overall race-based bonuses to thieving abilities, you can have a seriously competent thief right out of the gate at level 1. With great Constitution-based Saving Throw bonuses, they also make for great skirmishers when made into Fighter/Thieves. The only disadvantage is their max 17 Strength, but this one disadvantage can be overcome with the right gear.
Dwarf: Some argue Dwarves ironically make for the strongest thieves despite their max 17 Dexterity. They have great race-based bonuses to thieving abilities to make up for it, and the 19 Constitution with Constitution-based Saving Throw bonuses makes them probably the best choice for a Fighter/Thief. Use a certain Tome in BG1 and you've got a regenerating off-tank skirmisher. This really is a fun class and I had no trouble soloing BG1 with this character.
Half-Orc: A lot of power-gamers will tell you a half-orc makes for the best thief and fighter/thief, but I think those people sometimes underestimate the usefulness of a character with better saving throws. Regardless, 19 Strength right out of the gate can make for a heavy-hitting thief. Whether you utilize that 19 Strength to land savage backstabs or hurl terrifyingly powerful rocks with slings or throwing knives, or both, is up to you. One of my favorite characters I ever made was a Half-Orc Assassin, and the dude contributed surprising amounts of damage for a non-warrior class.
As far as the multi-class options themselves...
Fighter/Thief is a solid, solid combination whose only real restrictions are armor options to retain thieving abilities. Thankfully there are some great enchanted leather armors, elven chainmails, and even a certain dragon scale armor that can almost entirely make up for this disadvantage. It's also available to ALL races capable of multi-classing, which is sweet.
Mage/Thief is a great class for getting better weapons and some extra utility on your mage. It can feel a bit limiting for mage spellcasting late-game, however. This is why the game pushes the Thief->Mage dual-class so much, and it is a good option.
Fighter/Mage/Thief is the ultimate in versatility at the expense of raw power in any one particular category. But honestly, late-game those levels start to be a whole lot less significant, so these characters can definitely hold their own throughout the series. I've found this class a bit micro-managey, but if that doesn't bother you, it's a good choice.
Cleric/Thief is the ultimate in utility, if that's your thing. Weapon restrictions are the most painful thing, but a 19 Strength Half-Orc C/T (or 19 Str Gnome C/T with a Strength Tome) can hurl rocks of doom with a sling, and you can still backstab with quarterstaves (actually a great backstab option) and clubs. Being able to use a shield a la the F/T and F/M/T is a nice boon as well. The main attraction of this class is the cheese. Cleric/Thieves can use the spells Sanctuary and Detect Traps to make trap-filled dungeons a complete cakewalk, for example. There are more synergies besides this.
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The fact that this still works is hilarious to me.
Don't forget that throwing daggers have Str bonus as well as +1 APR. One proficiency slot in Dagger gives you a missile attack and a melee attack on demand. Very strong for warriors with their extra APR. The trade off is that you can't carry them in quiver slots and stack size is only 40 so it will clutter your inventory a bit.