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Do you feel using Keldorn like you’re cheating?

I feel this way when I use him and his overpower dispel skill. Mage battles become too easy and the game lose something.

Do you feel this way or not?

Skatan

Comments

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,630
    well the dispel magic also hits your group as well with the same huge bonus, so i guess its fair

    i've had many play throughs with him and they dont seem too much easier, although the battle with jon irenicus can be quite easy with him, i find that ToB isn't much different, since having more melee power is stronger than magic power i find

    ilduderinogorgonzolaThacoBell
  • ilduderinoilduderino Member Posts: 294
    edited September 28
    He is powerful in certain scenarios that can be some of the most difficult in the game and this is exacerabated by the fact that the holy avenger gives him very high power early on.

    Also evil / neutral companions are unlikely to want to travel with him and good ones are likely to feel bad taking him away from his family so it raises an issue about what pc will realistically use him, there is a cheating feeling in this so when I use him it feels somewhat uncomfortable when other characters more actively want to travel with you.

    I assume that a bard or other single class that levels quickly (also cleric I suppose) can also get a very effective dispel magic fast.

    Also if you take away the dispel magic he doesn’t bring much to the table, he requires the dexterity gauntlets, needs a high strength item, can’t buff himself with priest spells (e.g. draw on holy might) and cannot master weapons.

    Edit: A lot of his power comes from him being awesome in mage battles which are prevalent in BG2, in BG or IWD he wouldn’t be anywhere near as helpful

    Post edited by ilduderino on
    gorgonzolasarevok57Quartzleeux
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,825
    edited September 28
    his skill is powerful, but is part of his kit and imho is not so overpowered as the mages have other ways to take down enemy's buffs and defenses, and can use DM and RM (party friendly) as effectively in some party compositions, my sorcerers do it without problems.
    and as it has been told other mlee oriented NPCs are better in other things, korgan has shorty saves, GM and bersek, jaheira and anomen are way better casters and need only to be buffed in one stat.

    i feel more cheater when i use aerie, jan and anomen, there imo is the real power. 2 toons that have an unmatched versatility and can mix their classes for really powerful tactics and a cleric good as a single class one that can buff himself many times/day to hit way harder then keldorn with his pally only sword.
    i feel more cheater, still i am very happy to use them.

    i give to keldorn the fact that is a very low maintinance easy to use character, no particular knowledge is needed to use him well. give him the sword, the gauntlets that rise his dex, a str belt and he is set to go, point and click style. when needed let him drop a DM or true sight, you don't have to think too much to decide which of the 2 is needed in a given situation.

    i sometimes like to use him as i play good oriented parties and i like him RP wise, his interactions with viconia and keldorn show the limits of a personality too rigid and convinced that he is in the righteous side, and that his truth is the only possible, right and good one. his way to evaluate his responsibility and the one of his wife in his personal family failure is an other side of that.
    as i like to RP toons with their own contradictions as i feel them more human, more real, i like it.

    but he is not so high in my personaly rating of the power of the npcs, i rate the ones i named and almost all the other mages as more powerful then him.

    ilduderinosarevok57
  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 988
    The 2x level effect was not part of the original kit. I usually use the SCS component that downgrades it to being equal to his level. Since the old dispel magic bug has now been fixed he still has at least a chance to dispel most opponents.

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,087
    Mantis37 wrote: »
    The 2x level effect was not part of the original kit. I usually use the SCS component that downgrades it to being equal to his level. Since the old dispel magic bug has now been fixed he still has at least a chance to dispel most opponents.

    Me too, by keeping it equal his level it feels balanced.

  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 669
    Don't use him that much, but it's no different from using Korgans berserk for tanking virtually any CC under the sun:P

    or the numerous other items and abilities than you acn use to cheese.. Im not that worried:)

    gorgonzolaThacoBell
  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 603
    Gamefaqs hosts a number of guides that haven't been updated since 2000-01 and they list the inquisitor as dispelling magic at twice his level. It's true that some tabletop versions of the kit use 1x his level though.

    gorgonzolaStummvonBordwehr
  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 988
    Yes, it was probably a deliberate design choice by the developers when they adapted the kit, to ensure that players who didn't understand the magic system wouldn't get too frustrated against high level casters.

    gorgonzola
  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 673
    The magic system is better than in pnp. There are far better protections and removals that not exist in pnp.

    gorgonzolaleeux
  • ilduderinoilduderino Member Posts: 294
    It would be interesting if there were evil enemy clerics that would actually turn Keldorn, a sort of rock paper scissors mechanic

    Permidion_StarkgorgonzolaSkatanBalrog99
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,825
    That would be fun, if i will ever write quest mods i will surely include at least a good and an evil high level priest.
    Going with keldorn or dorn in the party should be interesting.
    As well as to run a pally charname.

    ilduderinoBalrog99
  • KhyronKhyron Member Posts: 416
    I don't think using Keldorn is a "cheat" so to speak.. but he and a few other npc's have a very specific set of skills/abilities that make them stand out quite a lot.

    I think many can agree that these are strongest:
    Keldorn (Super dispel, Carsomyr, true seeing. Any boss wort mentioning becomes a lot easier with an Inq)
    Edwin (Easily the best arcane caster in the game)
    Aerie (A cleric with vecna/imp alacrity? timestop and cleric buffs? the tactical choices are unlimited)
    Anomen (Fighter->Cleric is one of the strongest metagaming combos in the entire series)
    Jan (Thief HLA and magic? Say no more!)

    And all the rest, while not necessarily weak or useless bring nothing that -really- compares with what these guys can swing.. but that doesn't mean these guys are cheats, it just means that they happen to have the luck of the draw and have kits/abilities that really matter in the key moments of the game..

    Cernd in Werewolf shape, Valygar, Korgan, Haer'Dalis, Jaheira can all shred through trash mobs like nobody's business, just as easily and many better than Keldorn.. but when shit goes down and i'm fighting Kangaxx or some other mega magic wielder, i'd take Keldorn any day of the week.. (Korgan's berserk ability is also very awesome, but i'd rate an inquisitor over a Berserker for this specific purpose at least.. protection from undead scrolls, hm?)

    That said, any encounter can be beaten by nearly any party, it just so happens that some characters - like Keldorn - happen to be very newbie/lazy friendly, as he offers a LOT of oomph against wizards for very little effort.. Korgan could just berserk and tank a wiz/lich, let someone else deal with the dispels and damage dealing, Keldorn would rely in Carsomyr keeping him alive with lucky MR rolls (Alright 50% doesn't take a LOT of luck, but no amount of MR protects you from Imprisonment.)

    gorgonzolawuke
  • KhyronKhyron Member Posts: 416
    edited October 8
    At low difficulty, i'd agree.. but Normal and up, i think Anomen is better.

    Yes, Jaheira get's fighter HLA.. but a lot of other npcs do as well.
    Anomen is a (almost) pure cleric which means he actually gets really powerful Turn Undead, he can even turn Kangaxx if you do all of SoA + watchers keep with a small sized party.

    Righteous Magic and Haste also pretty much matches any Fighter HLA besides Hardiness
    But Anomen get's to use Defender of Easthaven.. so it's kinda the same.
    Also Anomen's Armor of Faith will be a lot stronger for a really long time..

    Insect plague is good.. but not a game changer, and it needs to be used before wizards buff or after they are debuffed - both points at which you can use a lot of different methods to chunk them easily.

    Jaheira gets a decent scimitar or staff, Anomen can dual wield FoA and Crom..

    Can go tit for tat like that forever.. but ultimately I find Anomen better.

    gorgonzola
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 9,562
    @Khyron "Insect plague is good.. but not a game changer, and it needs to be used before wizards buff or after they are debuffed - both points at which you can use a lot of different methods to chunk them easily."

    Actually no. Insect Plague is basically "I win". The only thing that blocks it is magic resistence. Fireshield? Stoneskin? Nope, the bees don't care. You can't target an invisibile caster, but you CAN target one of their allies (or your own summoned creature) and the plague will spread to the invisible mage. Insect PLague is a better mage killer than just about anything else in the game. Even above Keldorn's Dispel Magic.

    ilduderinoiosfrustrationgorgonzolaBalrog99
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 339
    To be fair, some mods tweak Insect Plague. SCS has fireshields kill off the insects, protection from normal weapons prevent the damage, undead flat-out immune, and no spell failure until the damage gets through - so a mage with stoneskin up has a round or so before there's any problem. It's still a great option to start the battle, especially if you can start casting a bit before hostilities break out.

    As for targeting, I usually target one of my own frontline warriors. The way the spell works, the first projectile travels to the target, and then spawns secondary projectiles that travel to all nearby foes to deliver the insects. Even if you target a member of your own party, only enemies will actually get plagued.

    Now, on those weapon suggestions for Anomen... dual wielding the Flail of Ages and Crom Faeyr? Using the Defender of Easthaven? He starts with no relevant proficiencies, which means he'll be something like level 24 by the time he achieves basic competence (2 dots flail, 2 dots two-weapon style). It's much more sensible to just push to grandmastery in maces ASAP (level 20) to use with a shield and then work on a plan B after that.

    Of course, Keldorn isn't the only one out there who can cast super-dispels late game. They may take longer to get there, but bards and full clerics can do it too. Haer'Dalis casting Remove Magic or Dispel Magic was my go-to option for mages I couldn't just tank in my last run; with the wondrous gloves and the ring of acuity, he had seven of those spells per day.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,825
    edited October 9
    Let me add an other super powerful bg2 nps, neera.
    Imo she is the queen of the casters, not aerie or edwin.
    As soon as she is able to cast PI and thank to her special items she has a limited improved alacrity, without risking much.
    My neera, or better her clone can flood the enemies with ADHW, spam wish and such kind of things in chap 2, and i had never the need of reloading for a bad surge, if the PI gets sex changed or gets a cow on the head is not a big deal.
    Later, in ToB, she has 5 free lev 9 spells to use in every hard battle, chosing among the ones she know, not the memorized ones.
    You can decide on the spot if flood the battlefield with dragon breaths, banshee spells, imprison 5 foe or drain many levels of a super strong boss.
    On the spot mean that you can change tactic in different battles without having to rest to memorize different spells. And her simulacrum double the number of the dwehomers, 10 free spells battle picking from all the ones she knows, with a free improved alacrity.

    Wild mages are broken, no other caster can compare.

    By the way i like how in bg2 the really powerful toons need finesse and preparation to shine, while less powerful ones but easier to use like keldorn still have their own power, it give a lot of alternatives to the player depending on his taste, knowledge and will to micro manage.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 9,562
    @jmerry Yeah, but those are mods. The discussion was about BG2. Those are two separate things.

    gorgonzola
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 1,637
    No, using Keldorn doesn't feel like cheating. Rolling your own Inquisitor with a set of 19's after going through BG1 and gathering tomes certainly feels like cheating though.

    gorgonzolaBalrog99
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