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Character Invalidation of RDDs & PMs

Grizzled_DwarflordGrizzled_Dwarflord Member Posts: 168
in General Discussions NWN:EE
Just saw this gem, " Dragon Disciple [and PM] Natural AC and Ability progression has been changed as well. As a consequence of this change, existing creatures will be stripped of their baked-in modifiers; thus changing characters/saves irreversibly and making them invalid with older game versions"

And prithee, can someone explain why this needed to happen?

Comments

  • SherincallSherincall Member Posts: 387
    Some benefits of this change are: a) the values are not hardcoded anymore and can be tweaked with a 2da edit, b) other classes can be given the same types of benefits.

    While the bic files are no longer compatible, it is possible to undo the migration with a GFF editor. There's a pseudocode snippet given on what you need to do.

    Also, I'm not entirely sure, but I _think_ only RDD characters were modified. For PM, the only change was that the AC bonus is not hardcoded, but read from the 2da instead, and their bics are still compatible.

    Note however that further changes to other classes/races are possible in the future, as the hardcoded limitations get moved over to 2da entries.
  • Shia_LuckShia_Luck Member Posts: 39
    A result of this change is that the +2 CHA from RDD lvl10 can no longer be used to qualify for bard/sorc spell levels.

    Is this intended behaviour?

    Have fun :)
  • Shia_LuckShia_Luck Member Posts: 39
    Ahh, ok. Thanks for the information. That's good to hear.

    Loving the patch so far.

    Have fun :)
  • Old_GithOld_Gith Member Posts: 152
    edited December 2019
    Warm winds and hello!

    First, I am very pleased with the 1.79 patch so far. The new toolset options alone seem to be worth its weight in platinum. Thank you to all who worked behind the scenes to get this ambitious transformation realized for a game that predates our children! Well done!

    I do have a question about the new RDD implementation and figured this was a good thread to hijack:

    I am currently experiencing issues on my PW Server in getting those players who had Red Dragon Disciples to remain valid characters. They are no longer able to log into the PW. My understanding of the patch notes was that I could turn off Enforce Legal Characters, and then have those players log in, save their character to the server vault. I could then turn ELC back on and they could log back in legally under the 2da system. This isn't working, however, and I'm wondering if I am not understanding the premise on how to effectuate this transition, or are these characters rendered inert?

    Any and all guidance is appreciated, and thank you in advance.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,760
    edited December 2019
    Old_Gith wrote: »
    Warm winds and hello!

    First, I am very pleased with the 1.79 patch so far. The new toolset options alone seem to be worth its weight in platinum. Thank you to all who worked behind the scenes to get this ambitious transformation realized for a game that predates our children! Well done!

    I do have a question about the new RDD implementation and figured this was a good thread to hijack:

    I am currently experiencing issues on my PW Server in getting those players who had Red Dragon Disciples to remain valid characters. They are no longer able to log into the PW. My understanding of the patch notes was that I could turn off Enforce Legal Characters, and then have those players log in, save their character to the server vault. I could then turn ELC back on and they could log back in legally under the 2da system. This isn't working, however, and I'm wondering if I am not understanding the premise on how to effectuate this transition, or are these characters rendered inert?

    Any and all guidance is appreciated, and thank you in advance.

    There is now a dev build on Steam. https://steamcommunity.com/games/704450/announcements/detail/1711861579639717609
    Post edited by JuliusBorisov on
  • 11302101130210 Member Posts: 381
    edited December 2019
    You know, I heard about this tweak and was a bit confused. Does this mean that the RDD and PM aren't as powerful anymore?

    You know, people harp on the RDD and the PM because they don't learn new spell levels, but they really are very powerful. My first playthrough of SoU and HotU I played a PM. I beat the game just fine.

    EDIT: I know that the topic wasn't even talking about whether PM and RDD are/aren't powerful, but I added that to just convey that they are one of my favorite classes, and that's why I'm wondering what was tweaked with them.
  • grom56grom56 Member Posts: 113
    @JuliusBorisov thanks for that link... would be even more helpful if it showed anything at all. Just takes me to a login for steam (which I don't use) Is there a reason that the long awaited update only has it's much needed to read patch notes posted at steam??? Why is there no place on these forums that have enough space to hold them?? And what about the poor folks who bought your fine game on GoG??? Will them and us never be able to know just what has happened to our RDD toons????????? I've said this before, and I'll probably have to say it again: It sure seems as if BeamDog only cares about their steam customers. This behavior I find odd. I would think that us folks who are loyal BeamDog customers would get just a tiny touch of love back!
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,760
    @grom56 We posted the patch notes on Steam because it's the easiest way to post the notes. The fix will come to Beamdog.com after we test all the quick fixes on Steam.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,760
    Old_Gith wrote: »
    Warm winds and hello!

    First, I am very pleased with the 1.79 patch so far. The new toolset options alone seem to be worth its weight in platinum. Thank you to all who worked behind the scenes to get this ambitious transformation realized for a game that predates our children! Well done!

    I do have a question about the new RDD implementation and figured this was a good thread to hijack:

    I am currently experiencing issues on my PW Server in getting those players who had Red Dragon Disciples to remain valid characters. They are no longer able to log into the PW. My understanding of the patch notes was that I could turn off Enforce Legal Characters, and then have those players log in, save their character to the server vault. I could then turn ELC back on and they could log back in legally under the 2da system. This isn't working, however, and I'm wondering if I am not understanding the premise on how to effectuate this transition, or are these characters rendered inert?

    Any and all guidance is appreciated, and thank you in advance.

    @Old_Gith About the report that RDD is not able to join games due to skill point issues. We need the character file (.bic) and repro steps. Thanks.
  • Old_GithOld_Gith Member Posts: 152
    JuliusBorisov wrote: »

    @Old_Gith About the report that RDD is not able to join games due to skill point issues. We need the character file (.bic) and repro steps. Thanks.

    Hmmm? You need the bics? I don't follow. And the repro steps? You need that here or on Redmine? Not sure what the question is since we're not doing anything on the user end other than using the update provided.
  • AurikAurik Member Posts: 4
    What are the steps if any to fix this error for RDD characters on PW servers?
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,760
    Old_Gith wrote: »
    JuliusBorisov wrote: »

    @Old_Gith About the report that RDD is not able to join games due to skill point issues. We need the character file (.bic) and repro steps. Thanks.

    Hmmm? You need the bics? I don't follow. And the repro steps? You need that here or on Redmine? Not sure what the question is since we're not doing anything on the user end other than using the update provided.

    - bic means the charfile. Please send us your RDD that is now failing validation.
    - if just logging into any module with that char is not enough, We need more explicit steps so we can trigger the event.

    Please make sure that both client and server are on 8193.1 (dev patch), for testing purposes. We fixed a lot of RDD issues in that build.
  • DordledumDordledum Member Posts: 243
    edited December 2019
    Ok, I just reinstalled NWN through Steam because the RDD hotfix is not yet available for Beamdog users. Next question: how do I install this dev patch?

    And do I understand correctly that only new games/files with the dev build patch will work properly and not old character files or savegames with RDDs in?
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,760
    The Development Build is available on Steam and from the Beamdog Client.

    In the Beamdog client, pick "Development" from the dropdown.

    It should work with old character files or savegames with RDDs in. If not, please report on our Service Desk.
  • DordledumDordledum Member Posts: 243
    Found it, works!
  • Old_GithOld_Gith Member Posts: 152
    edited December 2019
    Warm winds and hello! I still seem to be missing some of the advertised fixes to the RDD/PM issues. To wit, I downloaded the Development branch and then, launching a Leveler module through the Dev nwmain.exe, attempted to level up a PM. I observed even after 10 levels of Pale Master, no AC bonuses were granted. I then looked in the Dev "ovr" folder at the palemaster 2da. I noted the AC bonuses were still acquired at the wrong level (however no bonuses were still acquired either way). Observe:

    7np2k75xkkbq.jpg

    Here's a screen capture of the character:
    44isrm40vahe.png

    Thoughts, opinions, musings?

    Late Edit: I think I arrived at the answer here, and I'm not sure why I didn't think of it sooner (but left wondering if others are going through the same thing). Because there was a complete overhaul of the classes.2da, and because I was using my own custom version of classes.2da, it appears that my custom version was overriding the dev version. My version would be considered a 1.78 version, and so I suppose I will need to go through it and modernize it to make it mirror the new 1.79 version. Does this sound correct?

    Later Edit: The PM AC progression is still off, though. I can fix that, but if you BD is porting a fix I can wait.
    Post edited by Old_Gith on
  • Old_GithOld_Gith Member Posts: 152
    Update: Palemaster AC progression still off. The 2da table represented above is still in both the Dev and Stable. Progression should be at Level 1, 4, 8, 12, 16, 20 etc. The 2da table above has it at 1, 5, 9, 13, 17, 21, 25, etc.
  • Shia_LuckShia_Luck Member Posts: 39
    Old_Gith wrote: »
    Update: Palemaster AC progression still off. The 2da table represented above is still in both the Dev and Stable. Progression should be at Level 1, 4, 8, 12, 16, 20 etc. The 2da table above has it at 1, 5, 9, 13, 17, 21, 25, etc.

    Confirmed in 8193.3

    Have fun :)
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,760
    Thanks for finding that. The next patch will include a fix, no work by players/servers is needed.
  • TemplarDrakeTemplarDrake Member Posts: 44
    Hi guys,

    I need something clarification on this. Were the changes meant to solve all the RDD issues or just to enable modifying?

    Cause if you use the STR you get as RDD to choose feats the ELC will still screw you over. With for example Overwhelming Crit or Dev crit?

    Any proposed fixes for this or clever ideas on how to avoid this on PWs?

    - Drake
  • WilliamDracoWilliamDraco Member Posts: 175
    Check your version. There were later fixes to this, so make sure you're on the latest stable (8193.9)
  • LordPasLordPas Member Posts: 47
    edited May 2020
    I've noticed a problem as well. Occurs on a server I play on.
    I made a Test build RDD. I would level it up only 1 level. Then I log off and log on again.
    I had no problem till I got to level it up form 6 to 7. At 7 the game chose power attack for me (I was picking recommended). Even though the build had 15 str I would get back a message "Character does not have prerequisite feats required for feat" and prevent me from leveling up, I picked blind fight and moved on.
    At level 9 RDD I picked recommended for skills.again and when I finished, it wouldn't let me level up with a text message saying "Character applied invalid number of skill points". I put no skill points and tried to level up again. It worked. I Logged off. When I tried to log on I got the message "Invalid character - Player login refused. Character applied invalid number of skillpoints."
    It seems that the RDD ability increases are making the characters invalid for some reason. It's only on hitting level 10 RDD that it prevented me from logging on. My version of NWN is up to date. Could it be that the server I play on is not up to date?
  • Old_GithOld_Gith Member Posts: 152
    edited May 2020
    More than likely it is the latter. I am running RDDs on my EE server without such issues. It is also possible they are updated, but are running a custom classes.2da which was never updated to account for the new 2da columns.
  • LordPasLordPas Member Posts: 47
    I'll pass your idea onto the PW developers. Thanks for the input.
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