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[(BG1) BUG] Nashkell Mine entrance not spawning (AR5400) (0914)

BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
edited September 2012 in Fixed
OBSERVED:
I went directly to the mine owner, Emerson, then the Amnish Soldiers, but no mine entrance transition point spawned. It was the same with every Amnish Soldier: they give the "I wish you guys luck in there. Whatever's been causing all the trouble isn't something I'd wanna run into," and then the soldiers on both sides of the central Amnish Soldier vanish, but that's it- no way in. I also tried talking to the soldiers prior to talking to Emerson- no difference.

It seems the missing element was that I hadn't been to Nashkell yet. Having already gone through the above steps, sImply visiting Nashkell to get the Chap 2 narration cutscene (still not speaking to Ghastkill) and returning revealed the mine entrance. After testing it in vanilla BG1 it seems the same thing occurs, so at least it's not an inconsistency. It's inexplicable that someone can't gain entrance to the mine simply due because they haven't set foot in Nashkel yet...

EXPECTED:
One of these:
1. Remove the Chap 2 requisite for entering the mines (not so good an idea since concluding the mines brings Chap 3)
2. Add dialogue to Emerson so that he tells you to go to Nashkell first (which is a clunky workaround since, again, there's no logical reason for the player to set foot in Nashkell before trying the mines, nor would there be anything about simply passing through Nashkell that should impress either Emerson or the Amnish Soldiers)
3. Move the Chap 2 narration cutscene to arrival at AR5400 (Nashkel Mines) rather than AR4800 (Nashkell) itself. Note that the narration content says nothing of Nashkel itself and instead focuses on the iron shortage and "trouble in the mines," so thematically and

Post edited by Bhryaen on
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Comments

  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    (Edited after further testing...)

  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    @Bhryaen - Is there a way to legitimately get to the mines without triggering the chapter transition? I get it by going through the carnival as well.

  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    edited July 2012
    @SethDavis
    Right- you can trigger Chap 2 with either Nashkel or the Carnival, but the main thing is that if you explore out a roundabout course that gets you to the mines before getting to either Nashkel or the Carnival, you can't get into the mine, not even with Emerson's permission and the guards stepping aside. The only way in-game I've been able to get the door to appear is by simply setting foot in AR4800 or AR4900. Then magically (and counter-intuitively) the door appears.

    There's another similar thread by @Nathan that mentions how, if you do get the Chap 2 trigger, you can then just talk to Emerson and bypass the guards to enter the now-spawned door transition, but that's another issue.
    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/1311/bgee-bug-ar5400-party-can-bypass-talking-to-emerson-before-entering-nashkel-mines#latest

  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    @Bhryaen - Ok, so there is a way to get there without going through those areas or cheating?

  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    edited July 2012
    @SethDavis
    Yes, and this is why it had me stumped (I'd CLUA'ed in once and took a circuitous route another time). There's nothing obvious about the mine entrance that requires stepping in Nashkel cow dung before it should appear, but... It would be a major change for the Chap 2 trigger to be in the Nashkel Mines (AR5400), but it would be a very logical change. It would also force the player to hit Chap 2 before plodding the mines to Chap 3. If the Chap 2 trigger is removed from the mine entrance conditions, it would be possible to skip to Chap 3 first...

    One other solution I thought of was to have Emerson require that you speak to the Mayor of Nashkel first. That would solve all problems also, but would require extra dialog and scripting for EMERSO.DLG and BERRUN.DLG.

  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    @Bhryaen - Ah, thank you for your patience. I will have to revisit this when I have the ability to commit these kinds of changes. Adding the chapter check to the mines area sounds like the best option.

  • NathanNathan Member Posts: 990
    Interesting - I was under the impression that Emerson wouldn't let you in until you'd spoken to the Mayor and gotten permission for him to.. er, give you permission. I'm thinking from a story standpoint that would make the most sense, as Emerson doesn't wanna let just anyone into his troubled mines without cause...

  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    @Nathan
    lol... Yeah, but Mayor Ghastkill won't give you permission unless you've first gotten permission from Kelddath Ormlyr, so... ;-)

    I agree: the more I think about it, the more I think players won't like moving the Chap 2 trigger to the mines, very used to getting the trigger upon arriving in Nashkel. To make it work well though as Ghastkill->Emerson->Guards->Door there would need to be extra dialog as I described, though perhaps not too much- just enough for Emerson to have a different opening line, then a rejection response. (The acceptance is already there.) Then Ghastkill would need at the least a global variable to trigger the Emerson acceptance response if not an extra sentence about him wanting the party to "tell my friend Emerson that I sent you."

    Avenger_teambg
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    I think that the Chapter 2 trigger shouldn't be moved for another reason.

    If Chapter 2 starts at the mines, it'll feel like a really small chapter. At least when you get it in Nashkel. You can come across Minsc or Edwin that will temp you into going to the Gnoll Fortress, or you can go get Brage. That gives some extra meat to Chapter 2. If you get it at the mines, you just go down some levels (some of which aren't very populated with enemies) and the chapter ends up feeling short. /shrug.

    Sure, you can go straight to the mines from Nashkel anyway, but I don't know...

    BhryaenAvenger_teambg
  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    We could kill the travel links that let players get to the mines from places without the trigger

  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    edited July 2012
    @SethDavis
    That would be hard to rationalize with this map location:

    image

    AR5300 and AR5500 are arguably closer to the mines on the map than Nashkel itself, but in any case a straight shot... and keep in mind that AR5500 is where you can emerge from the mines at the end... AR5000- the one with the shield symbol on it in the screenshot and immediately NE of AR5500- is yet another map that would have to be heavy-handedly neutered to prevent travel to the mines area.

    NOTE:
    Durlag's AR0500 already restricts travel, as one can discover by CLUAing over there immediately from Candlekeep even preventing direct travel to the Nashkel Carnival (AR4900) immediately west of it. The only area you can access from AR0500 is AR4400 to the NW. hehe... But it's not what the party should be expecting to do anyway...

    Post edited by Bhryaen on
  • Avenger_teambgAvenger_teambg Member, Developer Posts: 5,862
    Durlag should be invisible until you learn about it anyway.

    AndreaColombo
  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    edited July 2012
    @Avenger_teambg
    Actually I hadn't even seen Ulgoth's until after completing Durlag's my first run. And there are so many annoying spoilers in Ulgoth's that I'm glad I did it that way. I got good enough that I started hitting Durlag's early every game. I certainly wouldn't want to restrict Durlag access to Ike's "tour."

  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    I'm pretty sure you can actually learn about Durlag's Tower in Gullykin.

  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    Would an acceptable work around be:

    -Emmerson doesn't spawn by default, only shows up when a global has been set by talking to the mayor
    -The door is triggered by speaking with Emmerson rather than the chapter

    This would garuntee that the player cannot get into the mine without talking to the mayor, the manager and being in chapter 2, pushable guards or no.

  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    @SethDavis
    But the guards should probably tell you to go talk to the Mayor so the player knows what's wrong.

  • CorianderCoriander Member Posts: 1,667
    @Tanthalas Can you actually get through Nashkell without being ambushed by the mayor? I mean walking along the road, if you're avoiding him then you already know he's there.

  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    @Coriander
    I guess so, but this specific situation seemed to deal with people bypassing Nashkel to go directly to the mines. So it would be nice if they had a clue as to why they can't enter, currently there is no indication that they have to go to Nashkel first.

    But I guess that the usual situation is people will either recruit Xzar and Montaron, or get Jaheira and Khalid first, and know that they have to go to Nashkel. Its kind of unlikely that they would reach the mines without triggering the transition to Chapter 2.

  • CorianderCoriander Member Posts: 1,667
    @Tanthalas And I think with @SethDavis's plan if Emmerson isn't around, the player will go looking in other areas.

  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    @Coriander
    It's possible to just walk south- maybe in case you happen to spot a secret cache of armor in a farm field, could be- and then keep walking south, get the mines on the map and go. Or you could be exploring areas all around without bothering with Nashkel at that point and simply circumnavigate it. It's not guaranteed that the player will walk through town... though if they do, yeah, the ambush is set.

    @SethDavis
    If there's no Emerson, then the player has no idea what they're supposed to do. One way to avoid the Mayor, however, would be to have Emerson be in the tavern with Volo and have to get his permission there. But the guards at the mine would have to have dialog saying that you have to go talk with him first or the player is still left in the lurch... and I'm not sure how talking to Emerson in Nashkel is supposed to get communicated to the guard. I'm just not seeing any way that doesn't involve new dialog or even maybe a scroll with a description reading that the player now has permission. I mean, I think it would work like that with the guard saying,
    "Ha! Another adventurer, huh? Already had a crazy elf go in like a hero. Ain't come back out neither, so you gotta get the owner's permission for that, see? I can't let you go mucking about the place, now can I? Emerson's his name. Just head to Nashkel. He stays at the tavern most days... while we're down here in the ore..."
    But it would require work...

    The other aspect is, of course, why can't you just slaughter the guards and walk in, but, well... Unless Emerson gives a key with his permission paper... Or comes with...

  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    edited August 2012
    Hmm, looks like it'll be seven flavours of evil unless we toss in that dialogue. I'm pretty sure we're locking down the text temporarily, so that may need to be added later.

    I'll move this to fixed and add a new bug requesting the new dialogue.

  • Avenger_teambgAvenger_teambg Member, Developer Posts: 5,862
    edited August 2012
    Coriander said:

    @Tanthalas Can you actually get through Nashkell without being ambushed by the mayor? I mean walking along the road, if you're avoiding him then you already know he's there.

    In my first play through with BGEE, i went along the western riverside. This was because i knew there will be an ankheg armor :D So i completely missed the major. I forgot about him, but not about the armor.

    cmorgan
  • Avenger_teambgAvenger_teambg Member, Developer Posts: 5,862
    SethDavis said:

    Would an acceptable work around be:

    -Emmerson doesn't spawn by default, only shows up when a global has been set by talking to the mayor
    -The door is triggered by speaking with Emmerson rather than the chapter

    This would garuntee that the player cannot get into the mine without talking to the mayor, the manager and being in chapter 2, pushable guards or no.

    The door should be triggered by the guards (who are triggered by Emmerson) This way you can avoid bumping them.
    Otherwise (if you don't want that) door enabling after talking to Emmerson was confirmed fixed

  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    @SethDavis
    Just had another idea... Is there any way you can add the Mines area (AR5400) to the areas that trigger Chap 2? This way Nashkel and the Carnival still trigger Chap 2, you're still guaranteed to get get Chap 2 if you go directly to the Mines bypassing Nashkel, and everything else can stay exactly the way it was otherwise.

    Not sure why I didn't have this idea sooner... *sigh*

  • SethDavisSethDavis Member Posts: 1,812
    @Bhryaen - That shouldn't be too hard. I didn't do it because of the issue @Tanthalas mentioned about that causing a really short chapter. If he signs off on it I'll throw that in.

    And I'll change the door to trigger on the guards as well.

  • Avenger_teambgAvenger_teambg Member, Developer Posts: 5,862
    Because then Chap 2 would be too short. This has been mentioned earlier ;)

  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    @Avenger_teambg @SethDavis
    What's to stop it from being a short chapter by proceeding directly from Nashkel to the Mines (which the mayor instructs you to do anyway)? It becomes irrelevant. The point I'm making is not that we move the trigger to the Mines but that we extend the Chap 2 triggers to include the Mines. Note that the Carnival and the Town of Nashkel trigger Chap 2.

  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    Ok, if the final decision was that we would ignore that you can bypass initiating Chapter 2 to reach the Nashkel Mines then this is Confirmed Fixed in Build 0815:

    Entrance only spawns if you talk to Emerson.

  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    @SethDavis

    I'm ok with including entering AR5400 as a trigger for Chapter 2. Just as long as Nashkel and the Carnival also still trigger Chapter 2.

    Its really the lesser of evils here and it would be better than the current situation.

  • Avenger_teambgAvenger_teambg Member, Developer Posts: 5,862
    I would rather: entrance spawns only if you talked to guards standing in entrance.
    For them to let you in, you talk to Emmerson.
    @Bhryaen if you are 'forced' to enter Nashkel then you will likely bump into Minsc and Rasaad. So the chapter will be slightly longer.

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