Is there any use in going over 100% in any Thief skills?

enhancedgamerx

I guess Find Traps could make you find the traps faster and Pickpocket could lift up your chances of a succesful attempt when stealing something but what about Lockpick and Disarm Trap? Are there any locks and/or traps that actually need above 100% in their respective skills to be dealt with? Also, does the Knock spell open a lock of any level or is there a cap to it?

jsaving

Most thief skills work fine at 100% though there are situations in-game where you may suffer penalties to your thief skills, like deciding to wear bladesinger/elven chain. It doesn't hurt to build in a 10-20 point margin of error, especially given how many points you'll have as you gain thief levels.

The big exception to this rule is pickpocket, which requires 200%+ in BG2 to reliably succeed in situations where you most want it to work (Copper Coronet in the early game, Underdark later).

There is no situation where having more thief points in a skill gives you a "critical success," like finding a trap faster or salvaging its components. That would have been interesting for the devs to include, but they didn't.

Dan_P

Hiding isn't super useful once you get invisibility spells/potions, but Hide/Move Silently also benefit from really high values above 100.

Danacm

In unmodded game the find trap, lockpick, detect illusion, set snare dont need more than 100%. The picpocket, hide in shadow and move silently needs far more than 100% .

sarevok57

the trap that leads into sendai's enclave requires 110% to disarm, but for every other trap, as far as i know they only require 95 or 100....?

plus knock will open any door or lock that a thief can use open locks on, regardless of difficulty rating

monico

Depending on the thieving skill, numbers to go for are different:

Open Locks:
Each lock has a "difficulty check" number (for example, the first chest in Winthrop's inn with the Armor and Infravision scrolls has a DC of 20).
As long as your lockpick skill is within 5 points of the DC, you have a chance of unlocking the chest, if you are at or above the threshold you immediately unlock the chest
In the previous example: 15 to 19 has a chance to unlock, 20 and more has 100% chance to unlock). Note that if you are in the 5 points range, you can repeatedly try and unlock until it works, with no risk of "breaking" the lock.

As far as numbers go:
- the max DC is 100 accross all games, so going for 95 is sufficient to have a chance to open ALL chests, and there is no benefit going above 100 (unless you use Hide armor or Elven chainmail , they apply a small malus to thieveing abilities)
- outside Durlag's tower (max DC = 90), you only need 75 (DC80) to open the chests in Candlekeep's Catacombs for the tomes.
- When min-maxing, remember that there are many ways to buff your stats temporarily : potions of master thievery (+40%, can be stacked by gulping several), potions of perception (+20%, also stacks with itself), luck spell (+5%) and DEX buffs (for example, Draw upon Holy Might).

Find/disarm traps:
- Functions the same way as lockpicks, your skill must be within range or above the difficulty check of the trap (beware, sometimes the "detect trap" DC is lower than the actual "disarm trap" check).
- Again, you normally have a random chance to disarm the trap if you are within 5% of the DC, and can repeatedly try to disarm it without risking activating it (the only exception I can think of is the trap in Durlag's Tower with the WIS tome, there seems to be some cheesy thing going on as it has a "lockpick" value on top of the "trap" value, but without being actually "locked")
- accross all games, max DC to disarm all traps is 110 (only one trap in late ToB already discussed here), 99,99999% of traps have a DC inferior to 100.
- in BG1, outside Durlag's Tower and the final map, max DC is around 70 IIRC (at least so for the Candlekeep Catacombs), some traps in Durlag's Tower and the final fight can go up to DC100.
- You can buff your find/disarm traps with potions of perception (+20%), luck (+5%), DEX buffs (for example, Draw upon Holy Might).

Detect Illusion:
- The number is the exact percentage of chances to dispel illusion spells/effects.
- One check per round, doesn't benefit from a score higher than 100.
- Only way to raise it temporarily is with the luck spell (+5%)
- In general, I don't bother with this skill in BG1 where enemies rarely use invisibility. More useful in BG2, even more so if using difficulty-enhancing mods like SCS.


Set Traps:
- Same mechanic as detect illusion, your skill is the percentage of chances to successfully lay your trap.
- Note that even with a low score, there IS a chance of successfully setting your snare, although that would mean abusing reloads for consistent use of traps.
- Can't be buffed by potions, but benefits from higher DEX and luck spell (+5%), and a ring from the bonus merchant in BG2 (+20%).
- Doesn't benefit from score higher than 100.

Stealth:
- contrary to popular opinion, there is absolutely NO difference between Hide in Shadows and Move Silently.
- the percentage of chances of successfully hiding is ([HiS+MS]/2)-(environment/gear penalties). Basically, it means that if you try to hide while in the shade or during the night, you have higher chance to succeed than if you are walking under the shining sun.
- in general, anything less than an average of 80 in both stealth skills means you'll spend a lot of time failing to hide.
- benefits from enhancing gear (shadow armor, boots of stealth) and temporary buffs (potions, DEX buffs, luck spell)

Pickpocket:
There are 2 ways to use pickpocket:
- shoplifting: very difficult to rely on this, since each vendor eligible to shoplifting imposes a different penalty, so there is no "definite" score, but in theory, you could have 100% chances of stealing any item;
- pick pockets: 2 checks: minimum value / effective check: the minimum value (of your pickpocket skill) differs from the item you attempt to steal: 10 for basic inventory item, 50 for unequipped quiver/quick slot (for some reason, Algernon's cloak is in his quick slot and not his cloak slot), 60 for rings, 80 for amulets, belts, gauntlets, cloaks, 95 for unequipped weapons. Afterwards, a 1d20 die is rolled, I don't know the exact mechanics, but be aware that there is always a chance for "critical failure".
- does benefit from score higher than 100 (especially for shoplifting)



So, from a min-max perspective in BG1, and depending on availability of skill points (e.g. assassin kit or low-level dual), I generally go for:
- max 75 lockpick, often 60 is enough for most locks, relying on temporary buffs for those rare hard locks;
- max 80 disarm traps (1 potion ups it to 100);
- 0 points in detect invisibility
- if allowing reloads, I generally go for 50 pickpockets early to get Algernon's cloak, maybe 60 for Dushai's Ring of Free Action. If not, then I rely only on multiple Potions of Master Thievery to go above 100 before attempting a steal.
- the rest goes either in Set Traps, or stealth skills, depending on the need/playstyle.


EDIT: forgot pickpocketing skill.

sarevok57

just to add;

in durlags tower, you can safely disarm every trap with 95 except for the floor trap that is in front of the statue that holds the level 2 key wardstone, that one is set to 100, i've never passed with 95, so be mindful ( its a cloudkill spell and the trap doesnt go away once its triggered so you can trigger it multiple times )

in BG1 i believe the usual penalty from stealing from stores is around 60% so if your pick pockets is around 160% you should usually be able to steal from stores

in BG2/ToB stores will usually go as high as 100% penalty so usually 200% is enough, unless you are trying to pick pocket Bernard in the copper cohornet which has a penalty of 128% so you will need 228% to be able to pick pocket him 100% of the time without the *critical failure*

and speaking about that *critical failure* i've noticed sometimes it happens, and sometimes it doesn't, i think if only affects when you are trying to pick pocket NPCs and not stores ( i've never failed pick pocketing buddy at arcana archives, but i always quick save just in case )

oh, also, if you are trying to pick pocket *thief* type NPCs i believe there find trap or pick pocket? (not sure which one but one of them is surely used) score is used as a penalty against your own, so if they have 50% in the said skill you are going to have a 50% penalty in stealing their stuff

usually for bg1 with 100% you can pick pocket anybody with enough reloads ( the gnerm in ulgoth's beard that is wearing green and orange has the highest penalty to pick pocket - i want to say its... 75% ?- because i have succeeded with 80, but it took A LOT of reloads )

and then in BG2 i think gaelan bayle has the highest and you need around 240% to pick pocket all his stuff without fail ( i recall needing a damn high score to pick pocket his goodies ) just make sure not to make him hostile though, or else he likes to disappear afterwards ( and i doubt he comes back )

Tommy123

monico wrote: »

- pick pockets: 2 checks: minimum value / effective check: the minimum value (of your pickpocket skill) differs from the item you attempt to steal: 10 for basic inventory item, 50 for unequipped quiver/quick slot (for some reason, Algernon's cloak is in his quick slot and not his cloak slot), 60 for rings, 80 for amulets, belts, gauntlets, cloaks, 95 for unequipped weapons.

To make it more clear: "unequipped" for weapons here means equipped in one of the weapon slots but not as active weapon. Unequipped weapons in inventory only have a minimum value of 10. For example pickpocketing the Flail +1 from Sonner can be done with 10+ pickpocket skill (so even a Cat Familiar can do it).

On the familiars: a Ferret Familiar in BG1/SOD (50 pickpocket) can pickpocket all inventory items (like most quest rewards) and all quick slot items. A Ferret Familar in BG2/TOB (75 pick pocket) in addition can pickpocket rings, but for cloaks, gloves, amulets and belts you need to cast Luck on the familar (to get them to 80 pickpocket).