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Why can't Half-Orcs be Monks?

NoloirNoloir Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 377
Browsing around through the Forgotten realm wikia there's some interesting information around various classes and races. Wizard Slayers and Totem "Druids" are associated with Barbarians.

Rangers are prevalent among Elves, some are humans, half-elves, yet some are of the Half-Orc variety particularly those who seek to escape the prejudices of society.

Now as with Rangers Half-Orcs are known to be among the ranks of Monks with the Shadow dancer archetype being associated with the Monk class. If Half-Orc can be Shadow Dancing Ninja assailants why are they restricted from the standard Monk class seeing as how they have so little going for them class and race wise in-game? Their 19Str can be replicated through items and potions early in the series & their Constitution max is shared by Dwarves who are arguably better with their shorty save bonuses.

Comments

  • ShangerooShangeroo Member Posts: 84
    Most likely due to some silly 2nd ed. Rule. There are several of those that don’t make sense such as an evil cleric of Cyric not able to use sharp/bladed weapons.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 10,299
    Editions pre-3e were hecka racist.

  • Dev6Dev6 Member Posts: 719
    It's just 2e silliness. There's probably a mod to remove such restrictions.

    ThacoBell
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 475
    For most such restrictions, mods can remove them easily. In the case of monks, no. The problem is that the monk unarmed attack animations don't exist except for human (and near-human) sprites. You should probably be able to build an elf monk, and maybe a half-orc, but halflings are right out.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 10,299
    There is a mod for non-human monks over in the general modding section. Shorties get a special kit, and there are even multiclass monks available.

    NoloirAerakar
  • BlackbɨrdBlackbɨrd Member Posts: 63
    Don't know. Monks are a pretty lame class though so not too bad.

    I want the ability to have half-orc mages, now THAT would be cool.

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,192
    I think it's the same deal as the paladins.

    In 2nd edition to be a paladin you had to be a part of a particular order. And this order (these orders) only accepted humans. So even if you were like Mazzy Fenton and met every other requirement for the class, you couldn't be a paladin just because of fantastic racism.

    Same thing with the monks I think. The monastic orders only take humans. A half orc could theoretically train their body as a monk does, but they wouldn't be a monk, because they wouldn't have their membership card.

    The attitude gets particularly silly when applied to Gorion's Ward, who realistically shouldn't be a part of any order at the start of their journey, having never left Candlekeep. But I'm sure Wizards had something in their contract about how you couldn't mess with that sort of stuff.

    NoloirThacoBellAerakar
  • NoloirNoloir Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 377
    edited March 20
    Chronicler wrote: »
    I think it's the same deal as the paladins.

    In 2nd edition to be a paladin you had to be a part of a particular order. And this order (these orders) only accepted humans. So even if you were like Mazzy Fenton and met every other requirement for the class, you couldn't be a paladin just because of fantastic racism.

    Same thing with the monks I think. The monastic orders only take humans. A half orc could theoretically train their body as a monk does, but they wouldn't be a monk, because they wouldn't have their membership card.

    The attitude gets particularly silly when applied to Gorion's Ward, who realistically shouldn't be a part of any order at the start of their journey, having never left Candlekeep. But I'm sure Wizards had something in their contract about how you couldn't mess with that sort of stuff.

    The concept of <charname> being anything besides a vanilla Fighter (Guards may have trained him/her), Thief (Spent too much time with Imoen), Cleric (Particular the Oghma sect as they're literally in the keep compared to say Talos), or a Mage (learned directly from Gorion. Cleric to a lesser extent would make sense too for this reason) iskind of a stretch. You're right.

    How could charname be a full on Barbarian or Shaman if they were reared by a Harper? Rangers help see people through the wilderness to safety. If charname was rarely outside the keep until Gorion's death how would charname have the training without being apprenticed by an actual Ranger out of the city?

    For those reasons although it's shorter I prefer IWD to BG. There's more creative agency arond the character's stories where BG is a bit restrictive.

    Chronicler
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,000
    Same reason as a halfling you can be a fighter, thief, cleric, or fighter/thief, but not a fighter/cleric or cleric/thief.

    2nd edition is very strict about what races can use different classes and multiclasses. Sometimes it just didn't make any sense.

    Probably didn't help either that the monk wasn't one of the core classes in 2E.

    ThacoBellJuliusBorisovAerakar
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,192
    edited March 20
    Noloir wrote: »
    Chronicler wrote: »
    I think it's the same deal as the paladins.

    In 2nd edition to be a paladin you had to be a part of a particular order. And this order (these orders) only accepted humans. So even if you were like Mazzy Fenton and met every other requirement for the class, you couldn't be a paladin just because of fantastic racism.

    Same thing with the monks I think. The monastic orders only take humans. A half orc could theoretically train their body as a monk does, but they wouldn't be a monk, because they wouldn't have their membership card.

    The attitude gets particularly silly when applied to Gorion's Ward, who realistically shouldn't be a part of any order at the start of their journey, having never left Candlekeep. But I'm sure Wizards had something in their contract about how you couldn't mess with that sort of stuff.

    The concept of <charname> being anything besides a vanilla Fighter (Guards may have trained him/her), Thief (Spent too much time with Imoen), Cleric (Particular the Oghma sect as they're literally in the keep compared to say Talos), or a Mage (learned directly from Gorion. Cleric to a lesser extent would make sense too for this reason) iskind of a stretch. You're right.

    How could charname be a full on Barbarian or Shaman if they were reared by a Harper? Rangers help see people through the wilderness to safety. If charname was rarely outside the keep until Gorion's death how would charname have the training without being apprenticed by an actual Ranger out of the city?

    For those reasons although it's shorter I prefer IWD to BG. There's more creative agency arond the character's stories where BG is a bit restrictive.

    Personally I lend a bit more leeway for stuff like the barbarian. As a level 1 of any class it's not like your training is really extensive. You mostly figure it all out as you go along through your journey.

    But being a member of any particular order is like, where are these guys? Is it like when the army sends recruiters to do a presentation at your highschool, and then you sign up on the spot? Do you do work for this order? Just odd jobs around Candlekeep or something? Like what exactly does a membership to an order of holy knights or monks entail in this situation?

    Post edited by Chronicler on
    ThacoBell
  • PingwinPingwin Member Posts: 246
    elminster wrote: »
    Same reason as a halfling you can be a fighter, thief, cleric, or fighter/thief, but not a fighter/cleric or cleric/thief.

    2nd edition is very strict about what races can use different classes and multiclasses. Sometimes it just didn't make any sense.

    Probably didn't help either that the monk wasn't one of the core classes in 2E.

    This is completely correct. You can't be a halforc monk because there aren't any monks. Or halforcs. Ok there was the monk kit in The Complete Priest's Handbook, but that is nothing like the BG monk.

    I blame 1st edition silliness as BG took monks and halforcs from 1st edition.

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,192
    You sure they didn't take monks and half orcs from 3rd edition?

    3rd edition was coming out around the same time as BG2, and a lot of the BG2 additions were taken from it because it was the hot new thing.

    Sorcerer for example was a new class introduced in 3e, and it was one of the new things for BG2.

    ThacoBell
  • PingwinPingwin Member Posts: 246
    1st and 2nd edition were very similar and BG monks and halforcs certainly have some strong similarities with 1st edition.

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