Do you prefer maintain something OP from the source material or a complete butchering?
SorcererV1ct0r
Member Posts: 2,176
in Off-Topic
You can't choose the mid therm. Or is a nerf to make the class complete trash or copying things from P&P which makes a class much more powerful on your CRPG. For eg, composite deadly earth on pathfinder kingmaker is almost like a "win button", because enemies has poor AI and doesn't try to avoid, wings and flying creatures can't ignore the ground effect like on P&P, among other things.
In other hands, NWN2 when brought Warlocks(a similar class mechanic wise except that warlocks has way more casting spell capabilities), nerfed so much the warlock that the class at lv 20 would deal less damage than a lv 10 fighter, be threated as half caster to bypass spell resistance, the invocations are complete trash, etc.
To use a similar invocation of deadly earth as a example, look to Chilling tentacles. A greater invocation that on P&P has caster level + 8 AB and in game has a fix +5 AB meaning that the invocation only hits heavily armored enemies with a critical and after a hit, allow a FORT save vs paralyz. On P&P, the grapple routine is much more unforgiving and while grappled, the target can't cast spells, fire ranged attacks, they are sitting ducks waiting to be dead by eldritch rays or worst, permanently changed into a toad/chicken(word of changing)
My opinion. the ideal would be if the deadly earth would be less effective due better IA, enemies able to fly or cast freedom of movement but between a direct nerf and a non nerf, i choose the non nerf.
In other hands, NWN2 when brought Warlocks(a similar class mechanic wise except that warlocks has way more casting spell capabilities), nerfed so much the warlock that the class at lv 20 would deal less damage than a lv 10 fighter, be threated as half caster to bypass spell resistance, the invocations are complete trash, etc.
To use a similar invocation of deadly earth as a example, look to Chilling tentacles. A greater invocation that on P&P has caster level + 8 AB and in game has a fix +5 AB meaning that the invocation only hits heavily armored enemies with a critical and after a hit, allow a FORT save vs paralyz. On P&P, the grapple routine is much more unforgiving and while grappled, the target can't cast spells, fire ranged attacks, they are sitting ducks waiting to be dead by eldritch rays or worst, permanently changed into a toad/chicken(word of changing)
My opinion. the ideal would be if the deadly earth would be less effective due better IA, enemies able to fly or cast freedom of movement but between a direct nerf and a non nerf, i choose the non nerf.
- Do you prefer maintain something OP from the source material or a complete butchering?3 votes
- Complete Butchering (eg - WLKs on nwn2)0.00%
- Maintain something OP(EG - Kineticist on PFKM)100.00%
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Comments
I'm all for things making sense in their medium, some things just don't translate from a table top game to a video game. Take the changes Vampire: Bloodlines made to a lot of disciplines. Protean 3, Earth Meld, would have been completely useless in the game, so they changed the discipline.
My answer would be that its a case by case basis, and the choice should be what fits best for the game implementing it.
As for pressing the same button over and over, is because nwn2 DESTROYED all invocations. I used a lot Chilling Tentacles, Word of Changing, The Dead Walk, Flee the Scene, Tenacious Plague, etc on NWN2 with the reworked mod which makes the class more in line with the P&P ( https://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/other/warlock-reworked-102g )
As for some things not translating well, i think that i partially agree. I mean, WISH spell is near impossible to implement in a CRPG unless you have some ultra powerful AI with complex natural language processing or have a "wish list" like BG1/2 which is not 0,001% of what wish can do on P&P. But having a chilling tentacle invocation scaling with your caster level and grappling enemies like on P&P is not something hard to translate from one media to another.
As for everyone else needing to rest to regain supernatural powers, is truth but is exactly what makes WLK on 3.5e so distinct than sorcerers.
Even on 5e, they regain most of his spells with a short rest, not a long rest.
Witches on Pathfinder 1e also has a lot of at will powers, namely Hexes. Ice Tomb for eg is a "lesser ice prison" that can be used at will.
Warlocks were nerfed but not terribly. Chilling Tentacles really got the axe but thats about it. They still are one of the easiest classes to use, imo, since you could stack their DR sky-high with an assortment of feats. Tenacious plague, wall of fire, and chilling tentacles still puts down a lot of damage over time while you spam your Eldritch Dooms.
Strongly disagree. Invocation by invocation >
Combining all damage that all invocations can do at lv 20 on NWN2, a fighter at lv 10 with a good weapon can deal far more damage.
*This might be altered by the mods I'm using.
Eldritch Glaive isn't a vanilla Warlock ability, but one granted by supplemental source books. I personally think it's overpowered, especially for the low levels you get it at, so I'm fine with the deduction to leave it out. It remains the most damaging warlock ability from the time you get it to the highest levels. Anything that lets you get off multiple Eldritch blasts per round completely overshadows any other class, and the class itself has little defensive weaknesses.
Hideous Blow is more fair as an ability for a melee warlock yet still remains one of the best ways to deal great single target damage in a limited time frame even at higher levels.
Well, looking to wikia.
https://nwn2.fandom.com/wiki/Tenacious_Plague
https://nwn2.fandom.com/wiki/Wall_of_Perilous_Flame
And note that sorc wall scales with CL, WLK wall scales with CHA mod which is another huge nerf.
It enter in the category WARLOCKS AND OTHER CASTERS GOT A NERF in relation to P&P. Creeping doom is way more strong on P&P ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/creepingDoom.htm )
Epic level warlocks are far stronger. On NWN1 - PRC http://www.nwnprc.net/manual/index.html
Even not considering epic warlocks. Can you do that to your enemies on nwn2?
NWN2 with warlock reworked mod
Sorcereres are also extremely nerfed on NWN2... NWN2 is a game where you can rest scum consequenceless... Differently than P&P. Infinite uses of powerful magic is why many 3.5e DM's din't allowed warlock, but we are talking about P&P here, not NWN2. Infinite uses is no reason to nerf a class in as game where those without infinite casts can rest after every encounter. And honestly, i rather have the DM not allowing me to play as a WLK on P&P than giving me huge nerfs
Warlock doesn't trade damage for infinite uses on P&P. He trades FLEXIBILITY for infinite uses(3.5e) and the ability to regain power easily, with a short rest(5e). And takes way longer time to get invocations that are spell equivalent on 3.5e. A Wizard can cast Black Tentacles at lv 7. A Warlock can only cast chilling tentacles at lv 11. And the spell selection is extremely smaller. When Warlock gains a "save or become a weakling beast" spell, at lv 16, wizards already has access to tier 8 magic and one more level and they can force all enemies in a huge area to save or die(wail of the banshee)
Kineticists on Pathfinder Kingmaker can dish way more damage per second than any arcane caster
Even on 5e which has a extremely weaker version of warlock compared to 3.5e, they have less spells to learn compared to Wizard, but has the best cantrip(eldritch blast is now a cantrip) and can regain power with a short rest.
But NWN2 warlock is not only nerfed compared to P&P. Is nerfed compared even with DDO, a game who doesn't care about D&D ruleset. Tentacles on DDO grapples enemies and deal D4 damage per caster level and lasts 10 seconds. But he can even learn Mordenkainen's Disjunction and Wail of the Banshee, two spells which a warlock can't learn on 3.5e or in nwn1/2 with P&P mods.
I hate mmoish stuff, but loved so much warlock on DDO that i have a epic feypact WLK on DDO.