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Bug report: Upon saving and reloading, nearby monster spawns disappear

AdulAdul Member Posts: 2,002
edited November 2013 in Fixed
Monsters tend to disappear when I save and reload with a monster spawn location nearby. This is how that happens:

1. I save the game near a monster spawn location (just outside of its visibility)
2. I move my character closer to the spawn location and "aggro" the monster
3. I reload the latest save
4. Now the monster is no longer there

Expected behavior: spawned monsters should not disappear when reloading the game.
Post edited by Balquo on
«1

Comments

  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    edited November 2012
    In the very first area where Gorion dies, I saved the game next to the bear and tried to kill it but failed. So I reloaded but the bear was gone. Then I spoke to the guy that wants to jump off the cliff, and fought a wolf, but died again. After reloading both the wolf and the guy that was going to jump had disappeared.
    Post edited by Balquo on
  • AranthysAranthys Member Posts: 722
    I believe this is not a bug : Some spawns are random, and do not occur 100% of the time.
  • AdulAdul Member Posts: 2,002
    That could be the case with some spawns, but I've noticed the same behavior even with ones that are directly in view of the camera when I save the game (e.g. black bears and brown bears). Upon reloading they disappear too, even though they were most certainly there before.

    Also, these monster spawns do not have a chance to reappear after reloading, they simply disappear forever.
  • kilroy_was_herekilroy_was_here Member Posts: 455
    Aren't black and brown bears not 'enemies' unless you get too close and they become hostile? In that case it makes sense that they can disappear since they are only 'fluff' at that point. I'm not at my home computer right now but can you try getting them to attack you, stealth/run away and then save to see if they still disappear?
  • AdulAdul Member Posts: 2,002
    They do disappear for me. Even engaged enemies do, as I've found our after some testing. Not "hard-placed" enemies though, only spawned enemies. E.g. Nimbul in Nashkel will not disappear by reloading, but a randomly encountered gibberling or huge spider will.
  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    I already made a thread about this. Save the game near a bear, attack it and die trying to get that precious 650 XP. Reload and the bear is gone. This is just annoying.
  • MountieXXLMountieXXL Member Posts: 8
    Another negative effect this bug produces:

    Charmed creatures disappear when saving and then loading. When loading a game any charmed creature should respawn in charmed state together with party members.
  • Avenger_teambgAvenger_teambg Member, Developer Posts: 5,862
    Spawns always disappeared, by design.
    Spawns usually don't reappear right on reload (in the visible area) for good reasons, again by design.
    Disappearing spawn points will turn back active once they are out of the visible area (and some time passed).

    All these features are intentional or you could get
    1. overcrowded areas with spawns on load/save loops.
    2. instant combat on load even when there was no opponent around you at save.

    These problems weigh heavier than the problems you listed as both of them have the potential of causing a saved game dead.
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  • AdulAdul Member Posts: 2,002
    @Avenger_teambg

    BG:EE has a bug regarding disappearing spawns upon reload. It works very differently than in the original engine. I've just tested this using BGT - there, randomly spawned black bears do not disappear upon game reloads, nor do they duplicate (at least not regularly, I've tested it 15+ times just now and never encountered a duplicate, even after reloading various saves I've made around the area). In BG:EE they simply disappear. It's a bug and it should be fixed, because it's rather distracting.

    If the regular disappearing I noticed is intentional as you've described, then it should be removed in favor of another workaround. Or scrapped entirely. The original engine worked better in this regard.
  • AdulAdul Member Posts: 2,002
    Bump.

    It would be nice to hear from the dev team whether or not a fix is in the works or at the very least planned. Even charmed creatures disappear after reloading, which, frankly, is ridiculous. I sincerely hope this behavior has not been dismissed as a non-issue.
  • Avenger_teambgAvenger_teambg Member, Developer Posts: 5,862
    There was a fix committed, that may or may not solve this problem.
  • AdulAdul Member Posts: 2,002
    @Avenger_teambg Thanks for the heads-up. Can't wait to check it out.
  • sokuratesusokuratesu Member Posts: 8
    Can someone confirm whether this bug has been fixed and/or if it will?

    It is totally game breaking for me, since i save and load a lot.
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438

    Can someone confirm whether this bug has been fixed and/or if it will?

    It is totally game breaking for me, since i save and load a lot.

    Umm, game breaking means that it makes it impossible/very difficult to continue in your game. The only thing this bug would do is make it so you miss some minor xp and loot occasionally. If you're really concerned about missing a spawns, you can always reload a few more times until you get the spawn again. Annoying? Maybe. Game-breaking? No.
  • sokuratesusokuratesu Member Posts: 8
    edited February 2013
    Ty for the reply.

    I think we disagree about what the bug is about. This is what my testing shows:

    For those spawns that are affected (which is most of them), if you load while close enough to the spawn, the monster occupying it will NEVER appear. So lets say i want to redo an encounter where i saved 'nearby'. I can't. I have to wait 24 hours for a monster to respawn or use a save that's far away (if i have one). No matter how many times i reload, no monster will appear at the spawn.

    I've cleared at least three of the first wilderness areas in the beginning of EE. In those areas, i removed about half the monsters in this way while exploring (i like to redo about every other encounter, maybe more).

    This effectively (for my play style) reduces monster density by about half.

    Dunno if game breaking is the best term - but i'd rather play BG1 than EE because of this (which is sad bacuse i am very excited about EE).

    Haven't tested this very rigorously though (and i can't because i do not own the game) so i may be wrong. But i did do a few somewhat systematic tests:

    1. save when gibberling or whatever is just out of sight,
    2. make sure gibberling or whatever acutally is just out of sight,
    3. load 'infinity' times and discover no gibberling or any monster where the gibberling was,
    4. load far away from gibberling 'infinity' times and walk into it to discover that something spawns there frequently,
    5. repeat for other spawns.

    i did this test some time ago, so it may have been fixed in the mean time..?
  • sokuratesusokuratesu Member Posts: 8
    Also, to reconfirm that my explanation is indeed the very bug that has been the topic from the beginning, here is a quote from OP:
    Adul said:

    Also, these monster spawns do not have a chance to reappear after reloading, they simply disappear forever.

    (sorry for dp)

  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438

    Ty for the reply.

    I think we disagree about what the bug is about. This is what my testing shows:

    For those spawns that are affected (which is most of them), if you load while close enough to the spawn, the monster occupying it will NEVER appear. So lets say i want to redo an encounter where i saved 'nearby'. I can't. I have to wait 24 hours for a monster to respawn or use a save that's far away (if i have one). No matter how many times i reload, no monster will appear at the spawn.

    I've cleared at least three of the first wilderness areas in the beginning of EE. In those areas, i removed about half the monsters in this way while exploring (i like to redo about every other encounter, maybe more).

    This effectively (for my play style) reduces monster density by about half.

    Dunno if game breaking is the best term - but i'd rather play BG1 than EE because of this (which is sad bacuse i am very excited about EE).

    Haven't tested this very rigorously though (and i can't because i do not own the game) so i may be wrong. But i did do a few somewhat systematic tests:

    1. save when gibberling or whatever is just out of sight,
    2. make sure gibberling or whatever acutally is just out of sight,
    3. load 'infinity' times and discover no gibberling or any monster where the gibberling was,
    4. load far away from gibberling 'infinity' times and walk into it to discover that something spawns there frequently,
    5. repeat for other spawns.

    i did this test some time ago, so it may have been fixed in the mean time..?

    Well I suppose we could be talking about different things, but what you're describing does sound like what I've experienced. If I was determined to get a spawn, I would just use your method #4, although in my case I don't remember having to go very far away for it to work.

    With regards to an overall increase in monsters, in theory for every spawn group that disappears on a reload, another spawn should be generated somewhere else on the map, maintaining a more or less constant monster density in the area. I guess that the other spawns can appear in areas of the map where you've already been though, meaning that it could result in a overall decrease in the amount of enemies you encounter, especially if you reload very frequently when encountering enemies.
  • sokuratesusokuratesu Member Posts: 8
    TJ_Hooker said:


    ..I would just use your method #4, although in my case I don't remember having to go very far away for it to work.

    For me, reloading further back is often much further back. I think that i can modify my play to use multiple different saves or save less often; making this bug only annoying and not "game breaking". But i still think that it would be nice if it was fixed.
    TJ_Hooker said:


    ..in theory for every spawn group that disappears on a reload, another spawn should be generated somewhere else on the map..

    Not to imply that you are wrong, but can i ask how you know this?

    On a different note; i'm starting to suspect that this bug is a feature - to make the BG world seem more dynamic or something. Any thoughts on this?
  • AdulAdul Member Posts: 2,002

    On a different note; i'm starting to suspect that this bug is a feature - to make the BG world seem more dynamic or something. Any thoughts on this?

    Definitely not. It's a bug. Even charmed creatures disappear on reload. That is not a feature.

    And I can confirm that the bug has not been fixed, unfortunately.

    Has a fix actually been committed? Was it tested at all? Did it work under any circumstances? When can we expect a fix that works?
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438

    TJ_Hooker said:


    ..I would just use your method #4, although in my case I don't remember having to go very far away for it to work.

    For me, reloading further back is often much further back. I think that i can modify my play to use multiple different saves or save less often; making this bug only annoying and not "game breaking". But i still think that it would be nice if it was fixed.
    Mmk, yeah I'll trust you on this, as I didn't bother trying to get spawns back through reloading very often, so you'd probably know better than I.

    TJ_Hooker said:


    ..in theory for every spawn group that disappears on a reload, another spawn should be generated somewhere else on the map..

    Not to imply that you are wrong, but can i ask how you know this?
    Fair enough, I admit that was just an assumption on my part, which may be way off as I really don't anything about how the monster spawn algorithm works. My logic behind this was:
    -There's a set number of spawn points in each area (I'm somewhat confident about this)
    -Each point has a pre-determined probability of spawning monsters (I don't actually know this, but I don't know why they would make the spawn probabilities themselves variable)
    -The last 2 points would mean that there would be an expected value for the number of spawns for each area. So, for example, if an area has an expected value of 5 spawns, and you see one spawn disappear when reload, you would still expect a total of 5 spawns, so it's likely there's another somewhere else to make up for the one you lost. Of course this will vary due to random chance, as a missing spawn in one place doesn't influence whether or not another spawn will show up somewhere else, hence why I said "in theory".

    This is all speculation on my part, so if you don't believe it I wouldn't hold it against you.

    On a different note; i'm starting to suspect that this bug is a feature - to make the BG world seem more dynamic or something. Any thoughts on this?

    I suppose it's possible, but I kind of doubt it, as for the most part I think they want to make the game function like the original. I think many players have a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality, which the devs are likely aware of, which would make it unlikely for them to deliberately change something like this.
  • sokuratesusokuratesu Member Posts: 8
    TJ_Hooker said:

    Fair enough, I admit that was just an assumption on my part, which may be way off as I really don't anything about how the monster spawn algorithm works. My logic behind this was:
    -There's a set number of spawn points in each area (I'm somewhat confident about this)
    -Each point has a pre-determined probability of spawning monsters (I don't actually know this, but I don't know why they would make the spawn probabilities themselves variable)
    -The last 2 points would mean that there would be an expected value for the number of spawns for each area. So, for example, if an area has an expected value of 5 spawns, and you see one spawn disappear when reload, you would still expect a total of 5 spawns, so it's likely there's another somewhere else to make up for the one you lost. Of course this will vary due to random chance, as a missing spawn in one place doesn't influence whether or not another spawn will show up somewhere else, hence why I said "in theory".

    Well, you can confirm your theory like this:

    1. explore one area making sure to remove ALL monsters by reloading near them.
    2. Once you've gone through the entire area you've removed all monsters and they should have respawned around the map.
    3. Go through the area again and see how many if any have respawned where you had already explored.
  • Sese79Sese79 Member Posts: 478
    I can totally confirm this bug, it happens with me too, single- and multiplayer, WIN7 or XP. It happened yesterday too.

    This bug added to the new ability of monsters to exit Areas - escaping from you with the loot and XP, this can hurt you (try Horror, Spook, or just Turn). Added that the overall difficulty is lowered in this edition, new powerful kits are added, and new even more powerful characters added (Dorn is stronger as Kagain, You now who is stronger as Edwin), this game is lot easier as it was.
    The Bandit Camp is no more a challenge, I saw 0 Elites, and there is/was a bug with the Chills, they didn't attack us. Only the Firewine Bridge was as hard as it was in the vanilla. But OK, I am older now, I think I would have a hard time to play trough this game with the original difficulty.
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    @Sese79 do you mean monsters can actually leave entire maps/areas? Like the kind that require you to gather your party and result in an auto-save? Or do you just mean they can make minor area transitions, like entering or exiting a building or something?
  • sokuratesusokuratesu Member Posts: 8
    I think he means that monsters that go out of sight (because they run away from you or because you run away from them) disappear forever. Key monsters (like the ogre with the belt fetish south of the friendly arm inn) will teleport back to their original spawn.

    I think that this is a different bug.
  • Sese79Sese79 Member Posts: 478
    I could Turn or Spook monsters out of Areas.
    Also I could play a game outside of the gamestent - because the gamesman runned out from a fight. Also I could stay and sleep in an Inn without to enter: the bartender fled from the building before. I also saw skeletons run away from me entering a cave full of ghasts.
  • sokuratesusokuratesu Member Posts: 8

    I think he means that monsters that go out of sight (because they run away from you or because you run away from them) disappear forever. Key monsters (like the ogre with the belt fetish south of the friendly arm inn) will teleport back to their original spawn.

    Tested this today. Was unable to reproduce. Ran around with a ghoul and a hobgoblin; even got the ghoul completely lost in a flower feild across the map. He was still there sniffin' the lillies when i came back to help him push daisies.
  • ErgErg Member Posts: 1,756

    Tested this today. Was unable to reproduce. Ran around with a ghoul and a hobgoblin; even got the ghoul completely lost in a flower feild across the map. He was still there sniffin' the lillies when i came back to help him push daisies.

    Are you sure they were spawned? Some monsters are just placed on the map and therefore are permanent.
    You should check with NI to see if this is indeed the case.

    By the way, I also find this bug annoying, especially considering that the spawning system in both vanilla BG1 and BGtutu worked fine. I understand that the spawning system from vanilla BG1 cannot be used because BGEE uses the BG2 engine, but BGtutu used the BG2 engine too.
  • sokuratesusokuratesu Member Posts: 8
    Erg said:


    Are you sure they were spawned? Some monsters are just placed on the map and therefore are permanent.
    You should check with NI to see if this is indeed the case.

    Note that this is not the disappear on load bug i'm talking about. That one is still going strong as far as i can tell. I'm talking about monsters vanishing as soon as they leave the screen in the quote you're refering to.

    Quite sure that the ghoul was spawned. I loaded far away and walked into it several times. Sometimes it's there, sometimes there's nothing, sometimes there's a hobgoblin.

    What is NI?
  • ErgErg Member Posts: 1,756

    What is NI?

    NearInfinity: most recent version for BGEE is currently this one (Jan 25, 2013).
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