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This game hates me (SOLVED)

SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
So much for my no-reload run. I had exactly 14 HP and met 2 kobolds. The very first arrow they fire made 8 and 6 damage respectively on my dwarf berserker. Just the exact amount to kill. What is the chance of this to happen ?

Welcome to Baldur's Gate

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Post edited by Soido on
AedanThacoBell
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Comments

  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    Rant coming

    The f with this game. Never will be in my RPG Hall of Fame. Nothing else than a casino gambling RNG game.

    I like RPG like a game of chess, like DAO was sophisticated tactical game. I hate this excessive rng element in BG. I am not of control of dices. There is no strategy in this rpg mayhem. God doesn't play dices as one famous man said.

    Okay keep the rng for fun at minimum, but here it is so excessive and pervasive.

    I am not cool constantly reloading saves and hope the dice this time will be good good. Because it takes away the accomplishment reward and feeling. There is no accomplishment in winning to good dices only.

    Because if I say look I beat BG no-reload, then everyone knows you were lucky and nothing more.

    I don't know, not very fond of DnD as gaming concept (mechanically)

    Larian took a hot potato in their pocket if they make such a dice-pervasive game

  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 755
    edited May 25
    The chances of that? Zero, unless you were foolish enough to not wear a helmet. A standard kobold archer has a nonmagical shortbow and arrows, with one dot of proficiency. They deal 1d6 damage per hit. THAC0 19, so a warrior in splint mail with average Dex is hit on a 16. Improve that by 1, if you've got a ring of protection, 1 or 2 if using a medium/large shield, by 1 to 4 if you have high Dex, and by 2 or 4 with weapon/shield style.

    So, if you build for defense ... splint mail, 17 Dex, a helmet, and a shield or ring. They only hit you on a natural 20, so there's a one in 400 chance that both arrows hit. They can't crit, so they can't do more than 12 total damage.

    Also, the D&D ruleset, in older editions, is just really deadly at low levels. They've introduced changes over the years that mitigate this - things like not instantly dying at 0 HP. In BG1, this manifests as the principle that fighting in melee as a level 1 character is almost always a bad idea. A berserker is a great character in the long run - but what you really want at level 1 are archers. With this party, go where the ranged enemies aren't, let your companions do the killing with their ranged weapons (bow, sling, throwing daggers), and have your protagonist run around distracting the enemy.

    That, and most no-reload attempts start by picking up a bunch of minimal-risk XP to get a few levels before facing any real threats.

    StummvonBordwehrThacoBell
  • DhariusDharius Member Posts: 433
    edited May 25
    Ok...consider a P&P game of D&D..there are no reloads there either...

    What you've described could possibly happen if you’re unlucky...but: so what? The DM and players have a choice:

    *accept the result, which happened legitimately but unfortunately, and deal with the consequences
    *if they prefer not to, pretend the encounter didn’t happen and either retry the scenario, or ignore it altogether and continue (nothing wrong with this, especially if there are time constraints to a game, or if the players are just really unhappy that it spoils their experience too much) - this is the nearest thing to a reload...or
    *forget about D&D altogether, drink beer and play frisbee for the rest of the day

    There are no right or wrong answers to what to do - if you dislike the result and don’t want to reload at any cost...then take a breather?

    Personally I love the game, it’s a good approximation of D&D, but if I’m getting frustrated with it then try another game for a while and come back to it...it’s a very rewarding experience really. Life, like this game, is often governed by chance, not everyone succeeds to finish an adventure to the end every time, but the story is worth it.

    BTW when Einstein said “God does not play dice” he was referring to quantum Mechanics, not D&D...he’d probably have loved D&D, because it’s played by humans rather than God, who prefers UNO. :)

    RedRodentThacoBell
  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    I am sure all of you are very familiar with DAO as rpg games, it was often coined the true BG successor. Tell me then why while I play DAO I never feel so exposed to rng elements ?

    Because DAO was not dice game. DAO was the zenith of rpg gaming. Here is a fireball spell from DAO

    Area of Effect - Sphere (m): 7.5.
    Initial fire damage: (100.0 + Spellpower) * 0.3.
    Fire damage over time: (100.0 + Spellpower) * 0.3. Over Duration: 5.0s.
    Range: 25m.
    Conjuration time: 1s.

    Do you see anywhere dice above ? DAO was a game of chess. In DAO when you die you see your mistake when you analyze what happened. There is nothing to analyze in BGEE, it was bad dice that was all it was, like in the screenshot

  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 672
    1. What you're failing to read from us, and what we're failing to outright state, is "D&D is a Dice Game." Baldur's Gate happens to run on 2nd Edition "Advanced Dungeons & Dragons", wherein the early levels are decidedly deadly (moreso depending on the campaign setting).
    2. Baldur's Gate was not originally meant to be played No-Reload. NRL is a challenge run type that veterans have started playing in order to spice things up. (I have yet to have a NRL run get past chapter 4, for reference). It is exceptionally deadly for the unprepared. A Baldur's Gate No Reload run is comparable to a DAO solo run and requires similar levels of preparedness.
    3. As @jmerry has implied, you were very likely underequipped. It would help if we went over what you were equipped with, so that we can do a Post-Mortem (and so that you're equipped with better knowledge should you take up the dice again)

    RedRodentThacoBell
  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    I think BG suffers from too many layers of randomness.

    You have THAC0 randomness, you have damage randomness, you have spell save randomness.

    I think modern rpgs should get rid of some of these, and maybe keep only 1 randomness source. Either THAC0, or damage, but keep the rest as real science.

    But when you have so many rng randomness, it becomes excessive and pervasive and spoils the game

  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 850
    Soido wrote: »
    I like RPG like a game of chess, like DAO was sophisticated tactical game.
    Mage battles in BG2 are probably the closest analogue to chess as far as RPGs are concerned, though I agree that the first few levels of BG1 has more randomness than some would like.

    Definitely wouldn't call DAO sophisticated or tactical but am glad you enjoyed it.

    ThacoBellArdul
  • DhariusDharius Member Posts: 433
    edited May 25
    Possibly...but then the game would be more simplistic. If that’s what you want then sure, DAO is perhaps a better option.

    But dice rolls are not exactly random - they are chosen or “weighed” depending on e.g. the armour you’re wearing, the visibility, the light level, how healthy/tired the character is feeling etc. All the factors together create a final number or range of outcomes, which can’t always be predicted.

    For people who like the influence of factors and numbers and a sense of intrinsic uncertainty in every action, then this is great. If not, well then you’re looking more at something like Diablo I guess...

    D&D and BG are not all about dice rolls anyway...look at all the dialog options you have for instance...but even then you can’t really predict the outcome of your words, just like in real life :)

    ThacoBell
  • velehalvelehal Member Posts: 279
    Yes, there are elements of randomness, but the game give you tools to mitigate it or avoid it completly. The game was finishid solo with Ascensio, SCS on LoB difficulty. It has nothting to do with luck but with the knowledge of the game.

    ThacoBellArdul
  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    Someone mentioned above an interesting point. I want to analyze this. Yes I do have a helmet of course. And a splintmail (missile AC is0 at that point)

    These kobolds wield shortbows with 1d6 damage. I just find it hard to believe that one of the kobolds hit me for 8 damage.

  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    The kobold at that early game, the second area leading to Friendly Arms Inn, is a level1kobold with 9 dex. How on earth he hitting me for 8 damage ?

    Here is Wikipedia link

    https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Kobold

  • velehalvelehal Member Posts: 279
    If you play on insane difficulty then all the damage that you receive is doubled.

  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    edited May 25
    I play on core rules. I can't believe a kobold hits for 8 damage. Are they wielding longbows ? I never found a longbow in possession of those kobolds in the second area ? They only have shortbows in their dead bodies

  • DhariusDharius Member Posts: 433
    Could be a bug...you could raise it with the Support Desk and ask them to investigate?

  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    I reloaded, here is the same two kobolds that killed me same exact spot, this time I killed them. See their dead bodies ? Shortbow

    bwhv7ynmkx3v.png

  • DhariusDharius Member Posts: 433
    Well, on the bright side you won that time?

  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    edited May 26
    Deleted

    Post edited by Soido on
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 755
    And another note - the potential ranged enemy spawns (bandits, kobolds) on that map only show up if you follow the road south to Beregost. If you head north to the Friendly Arm, or go off-road, you won't encounter any enemy archers.

  • DhariusDharius Member Posts: 433
    Like I said I don’t *know* if it’s a bug...I’m just speculating...I really would advise raising a ticket with Support Desk: then they can look into it when they can.

    It could be that no-one’s ever noticed this before, if it is a bug that is. But the first step is reporting it officially as a *query* and something you’d like looking into.

  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    These are mook kobolds, random spawn kobolds. Nothing scripted.

    The only way to do 1d8 damage is if the kobold has two pips in shortbows. However the kobolds have 1APR so that is not the case. A bug

  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 672
    Soido wrote: »
    I think modern rpgs should get rid of some of these, and maybe keep only 1 randomness source. Either THAC0, or damage, but keep the rest as real science.
    Surprise! Baldur's Gate was first published in 1998. Guess what exact lesson future RPGs took to heart?

  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    I had to use complicated console commands to find out what these kobolds are. Now it becomes apparent.

    They have +2 damage from proficiency (indeed they have 2 pips in shortbow). Notice their APR is actually 2. It must be 2 pips in shortbow.

    fguxknmfgmxr.png

  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 672
    Shortbows and Longbows have a base APR of 2, so a single Kobold can remove 32 HP per round with max damage crits on both hits against an un-helmeted character.

    Minimum damage of 3 is concerning, since it's entirely possible to roll a character with exactly 3 HP (any Wizard with a negative CON bonus)

  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    edited May 26
    So what really happened here

    Kobolds have THAC0 19 and my AC missile is 0. I wear helmet so is not critical.

    They must have rolled d20 of 19 or 20 exact in order to hit me. Because in order to hit THAC0=0 you must roll equal or bigger to (19-0). Remember my missile AC is 0 with splintmail and 17 dex.

    The chance a kobold to roll 19 or 20 is 10%. The other kobold also hit me so another 10%, or cumulative 1% chance two kobolds to hit me in the same round.

    There is more, the damage. The first kobold hits me for maximum damage, so the kobold rolls 6 in 1d6, or 16.7% chance. The other kobold hits for 6 so he rolled 4 or bigger , or 50%. Cumulative is 8.33% chance

    Then 1% hit chance multiplied by 8.33% damage chance is 0.0833 % chance

    0.0833 % This game hates me. Odds for this are 1 in 1200 attempts

    If I had one billion dollars I would open a casino in Las Vegas and name it Baldur's Gate. I think it will be a nice name next to Bellagio and the Mirage.

    Then I will throw half of the blackjack tables and roulette tables away and replace them with BGEE tables. Customers will be so hooked that they will play for 8-10-14 hours and order drinks and food and rooms in the Baldur's Gate casino-hotel.

    Post edited by Soido on
    BelgarathMTH
  • masteralephmasteraleph Member Posts: 86
    Soido wrote: »
    I am sure all of you are very familiar with DAO as rpg games, it was often coined the true BG successor. Tell me then why while I play DAO I never feel so exposed to rng elements ?

    TBH, I've always found that the "Baldurs Gate successor" stuff was mostly referring to a single player game, with a world that seemed very large, with tons of people and quests and so on, and played with a party
    (and mostly really from BG2) with lots of dialogue, strong personalities, interparty conflicts, romances, etc.

    DAO isn't a successor of BG tactically. It's a successor of BG (and BG2) in the epic scope and the dialogue. The entire Elder Scrolls series didn't have it, Knights of the Old Republic had it to a limited degree, NWN didn't have it, NWN2...sort of a little bit had it. DAO was really the first game to bring that back.

    ThacoBell
  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    edited May 26
    I think oneof the posters above nailed down the problem

    He said something like BGEE DnD has issue with early level being unfair. But once you make a few levels up and get HP, then situations like 1 in 1200 become rather the exception than the norm. Once you advance and have a good optimized and rounded party you will have response to these rare events and not be a sitting duck to the rng dice mechanics. At that point the game starts to shine, but early on it may disappoint being a very broken mechanics

    You could die in late levels of course, but that is not much because of the dice being bad but because of tactical errors when you have much more tactical options to counteract. But in this early stage when you don't have yet access to many options you are sitting duck on the mercy of the dice.

    BelgarathMTH
  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 814
    The dnd system is made for pen and paper game not video game. DAO system made fo a video game, thats why is so predictable. Btw they published DAO rpg pen and paper, but it uses dices :) 3 six sided dices, becase it should be rather tedious and bland to play pnp without dices(or card pool) or any other random element.

    ThacoBell
  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    Pen and paper is cool, I played the last PnP many many years ago and it was so fascinating. But maybe I was just too young. But PnP was also very tedious and slow and required a lot of spreadsheets. But the reading was cool. PnP stimulates imagination because you read it like a book and you imagine at slow pace.

    But video games rpgs provide another powerful stimulant. Music and graphical expression which are captivating also. DAO made that leap many years ago and thingslike the below video still remain in fans hearts

  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 172
    @Danacm

    I have to tell you that I enjoyed Fallout 1 and 2 a lot too. It is a turn-based system but it is made so well and it is rpg and it is hard rpg. I played Wasteland 2 DC and it is also excellent rpg game. I played Gothic 2 and 3 and it is amazing rpg games. Risen 1 also great. DAO, DOS these are good and not trivial games. These are classics. So video rpg games are good. of course if they are made well.

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