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Has anyone made a npc that you can actually corrupt ?

Comments

  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 1,687
    Corrupt who when how? I don't understand the title.

  • ArthasIIArthasII Member Posts: 219
    A npc who you can mold and change from good/neutral to evil

    You can redeem sarevok, viconia, kinda change korgan through mazzy,

    But who can you actually corrupt ? At best anomen.

  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,307
    you could corrupt imoen in the pre rewrite imoen romance.

  • IseweinIsewein Member Posts: 260
    You most definitely still can, but in a more realistic rather than hamfisted way. Come to think of it, that scenario kind of reminds of Ty Lee after my recent AtLA rewatch.

    megamike15
  • SkitiaSkitia Member Posts: 488
    I need to watch all of AtLA again. That show is amazing and has great characters.

    I thought about doing something like this. Recorder's originally planned BG2 storyline was centered all around Oghma and the power of names, and there would have been an opportunity to learn her true name, which the PC could have used for terrible evil or great good, influencing Recorder to do actions under threat of taking control until eventually she just complied out of habit. But no-good aligned party member would tolerate this except Imoen (It's practically mind-slavery), so I'd have to write a leave, warn, or fight instance with all of them. I was still uncertain of Recorder's initial alignment (Initially she was Lawful Neutral, and I was just about done with BG1/SoD development), and didn't know of the opcode that prevented them from leaving the party.

    Ultimately it was just a little too dark, ambitious, and uncomfortable for me all at the same time, so I dropped it pretty quickly in the planning stages. Thus I only have Chaotic-Neutral->Lawful-Neutral and Neutral-Evil-True Neutral as possible alignment changes.



    megamike15
  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,143
    Might be unpopular opinion, but this archetype is less fun to write than it seems.

    Skitiamegamike15Caedwyr
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,307
    edited August 3
    yeah i feel having a jerk be redeem is alot easier to write then the reverse.

  • ilduderinoilduderino Member Posts: 582
    Maybe the voice work could be done Hayden Christensen

  • MothorMothor Member Posts: 96
    edited August 3
    In later Bioware games you can actually run wild corrupting folks. :)

    Dragon Age: You can "harden" Leliana and Alistair.

    Dragon Age Inquisition: You can encourage Leliana to stay hardened (not your LI in this game though)

    Jade Empire: You can corrupt all love interests.

    Neverwinter Nights Hordes of the Underdark: You can encourage Aribeth to be an evil blackguard.

    Star Wars KotOR: You can keep Bastila as the evil dark sider.

    Star Wars KotOR 2: You can corrupt everyone.

    The closest to "corrupting" anyone in BG is Aerie. And by that its turning her from a wide eyed innocent idealist into a more badass good girl who is less naive and more raunchy in bed lol. Ah, and right...Anomen. Though its possible to make him nicer too. He starts LN and can become either LG or CN.

    I think that the problem with some corruptions and redemptions is that they seem to extreme. Like a person with a Lawful Good alignment like say...Aribeth becoming Lawful/Chaotic Evil? Well...maybe she had some emotional disorder as her true name seems to imply. In such cases sure why not?

    But otherwise I think it seems more realistic when its only a jump or fall in one "rank" only. Like going from Lawful Good to Lawful Neutral or from Chaotic Neutral to Chaotic Evil. Unless some magical corruption is involved (or some super traumatic event that turns the character's life and beliefs upside down) it is a bit to hard to imagine for someone to so completely changing his/hers value in such a drastical way. Same when it comes to redemption. Like going from Neutral Evil to Neutral Good. You were a bandit who was the epitome of selfishness but suddenly you are willing to sacrifice yourself for other people?

    In fact I find it weird how Sarevok goes from Chaotic Evil to Chaotic Good. Viconia at least is less extreme by jumping from NE to N.

  • SkitiaSkitia Member Posts: 488
    edited August 3
    I wouldn't really call the Dragon Age Origins hardening corrupting. While Dragon Age doesn't have alignment, I wouldn't even say Alistair's hardening takes him away from "Good" (Nor Leliana's, really, though she gets noticeably more grey shades than he does after the fact.) I think for them and Aerie it is just having their experiences gradually mold them. Experience is the enemy of naivety, after all.

    Also Alistair is the best character ever and should be a real life love interest, but oh well. No Wish Spell to use.

    megamike15Isewein
  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,143
    edited August 3
    Mothor wrote: »
    But otherwise I think it seems more realistic when its only a jump or fall in one "rank" only. Like going from Lawful Good to Lawful Neutral or from Chaotic Neutral to Chaotic Evil. Unless some magical corruption is involved (or some super traumatic event that turns the character's life and beliefs upside down) it is a bit to hard to imagine for someone to so completely changing his/hers value in such a drastical way. Same when it comes to redemption. Like going from Neutral Evil to Neutral Good. You were a bandit who was the epitome of selfishness but suddenly you are willing to sacrifice yourself for other people?
    I disagree. I don’t think real morality should fall on a karma meter like video games portray it. I’m fine with Sarevok because after seeing the PC’s example he understands and wants to be good, and his shift reflects that. If someone genuinely regrets their evil acts and has no intention of turning back, I don’t think it’s fair that they be barred from being classified as good.

    Viconia is a different story. She becomes True Neutral because she’s selfish as all hell and ONLY “changes” at all for the PC. It’s, simply put, “I won’t do evil things anymore so you’ll still love me.” I don’t believe Neutral is simply ‘good with flaws’. There’s a self-serving aspect to being neutral-aligned.

    I also disagree with what seems to be the notion that Aerie as a character is fundamentally corruptible. She’s not... at least not in the good-evil sense.

  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,143
    edited August 3
    Skitia wrote: »
    I wouldn't really call the Dragon Age Origins hardening corrupting. While Dragon Age doesn't have alignment, I wouldn't even say Alistair's hardening takes him away from "Good" (Nor Leliana's, really, though she gets noticeably more grey shades than he does after the fact.) I think for them and Aerie it is just having their experiences gradually mold them. Experience is the enemy of naivety, after all.

    Also Alistair is the best character ever and should be a real life love interest, but oh well. No Wish Spell to use.
    You may not like that I always give him up for Loghain nowadays then, heh. And I do like Alistair and befriend him in all my playthroughs, too. That doesn’t change the fact that I believe he is wrong. And that’s fine. It’s good development, even if it’s not a happy one.

    But maybe I’m weird, I also love Hawke yet I’d always sacrifice them, even over Stroud. Make of that what you will.

  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,143
    edited August 3
    Mothor wrote: »
    Jade Empire: You can corrupt all love interests.
    Jade Empire's moral philosophy was... not done well. A Closed Fist character who embodied the actual Closed Fist values would've been my ideal character to play. Alas, it was apparently too nuanced for the writers.
    Also it's infuriating how the Open Palm Death's Hand epilogue is like the best in the game but there's no sensible way to actually get it AAAARRRGHHH WHYYYYYYYY

  • IseweinIsewein Member Posts: 260
    AionZ wrote: »
    You may not like that I always give him up for Loghain nowadays then, heh. And I do like Alistair and befriend him in all my playthroughs, too. That doesn’t change the fact that I believe he is wrong. And that’s fine. It’s good development, even if it’s not a happy one.

    But maybe I’m weird, I also love Hawke yet I’d always sacrifice them, even over Stroud. Make of that what you will.

    Same here. When I love a character I want a satisfying conclusion to their arc, and what could be more satisfying than a heroic sacrifice? Guess my inner GM is just too strong there. Also, there's the whole Flemeth's prophecy thing...

    Back to topic, I think these kind of changes work best when they are not actively pushed by the PC but presented as the natural outcome of their decisions or the cumulative experience together - maybe even against the player's intentions. It makes the NPC in question feel more like an actual person rather than a dating sim.

  • MothorMothor Member Posts: 96
    edited August 3
    megamike15 wrote: »
    yeah i feel having a jerk be redeem is alot easier to write then the reverse.

    IMO only when the bad guy was more disillusioned/bitter than outright EVIL.

    Can you imagine redeeming a slaver who made money by kidnapping and selling children? Or a mass rapist? Or some psycho who kills for the thrill or some sadistic fulfillment?

    Staying true to high standards is also more difficult than the opposite. Plus lets see...how many devils or demons in the forgotten realms setting were redeemed? Now, how many angels ended up falling to evil?
    Skitia wrote: »
    I wouldn't really call the Dragon Age Origins hardening corrupting. While Dragon Age doesn't have alignment, I wouldn't even say Alistair's hardening takes him away from "Good" (Nor Leliana's, really, though she gets noticeably more grey shades than he does after the fact.) I think for them and Aerie it is just having their experiences gradually mold them. Experience is the enemy of naivety, after all.

    Also Alistair is the best character ever and should be a real life love interest, but oh well. No Wish Spell to use.

    Well, the hardening was closer to what Aerie gets rather than becoming a card carrying mustache twirling villain. Granted, I recall how Leliana and Alistair are less hesitant about agreeing to go along with stuff that would normally fall under the controversial category to them. They also become less romantic with Leliana no longe minding sharing her Warden with other girls (at least when its a one night stand) and Alistair won't mind having a mistress even while married.

  • ArthasIIArthasII Member Posts: 219
    Mothor wrote: »
    lets see...how many devils or demons in the forgotten realms setting were redeemed? Now, how many angels ended up falling to evil?
    .

    Pretty true.

    I will add.. The sarevok redemption on tob is canon, but is far from realistic. The lack of meaningfulness can be seen in the ending, no matter if you redeem him or not he is an indecisive man unable to find his spot. The truth is that it would be way better did he turned to neutral.

    Vicinia on the other hand.. Aionz told that she changed for the charname, but I would say that her change is far more effectual than the one by sarevok. When you tell her you regret what is happening, she starts to reconsider her values.

    Sarevok doesn't do that, he just doesn't want to go back to where he was, and I will go further by saying that it is probably due to the fact that he lacks the essence that fueled him. Now he is a broken man.

    Viconia embraces her legacy, but I m not exactly sure she is happy to pursue that path.

    But it a been years since I played with these two and I may be wrong

  • ArthasIIArthasII Member Posts: 219
    There is also a few things that stand correction in tob...

    I would like to tell sarevok that there is a chance that I may accompany him on his travels finished tob if I was a mortal, or, if pursuing divinity, that I would like to have him by my side.

    The tamoko stuff has also no retcon. I didn't kill her but there is no way to make this known.

    And there is also the matter of payment, I would like to reward him if he was by my side.

    Tob lacks options that a dm would offer.


    A npc that would be probably offer some opportunities would be a banished angelnow turned human. Maybe he lost his memory or maybe he has to find back how to enter celestia once again. Provided that meeting charname would not make him reconsider some stuff.

  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,307
    AionZ wrote: »
    Mothor wrote: »
    Jade Empire: You can corrupt all love interests.
    Jade Empire's moral philosophy was... not done well. A Closed Fist character who embodied the actual Closed Fist values would've been my ideal character to play. Alas, it was apparently too nuanced for the writers.
    Also it's infuriating how the Open Palm Death's Hand epilogue is like the best in the game but there's no sensible way to actually get it AAAARRRGHHH WHYYYYYYYY

    the main villain is the only time we get to see that grey aspect of open palm we are introduced to during the tutorial.

  • MothorMothor Member Posts: 96
    edited August 3
    AionZ wrote: »
    Mothor wrote: »
    But otherwise I think it seems more realistic when its only a jump or fall in one "rank" only. Like going from Lawful Good to Lawful Neutral or from Chaotic Neutral to Chaotic Evil. Unless some magical corruption is involved (or some super traumatic event that turns the character's life and beliefs upside down) it is a bit to hard to imagine for someone to so completely changing his/hers value in such a drastical way. Same when it comes to redemption. Like going from Neutral Evil to Neutral Good. You were a bandit who was the epitome of selfishness but suddenly you are willing to sacrifice yourself for other people?
    I disagree. I don’t think real morality should fall on a karma meter like video games portray it. I’m fine with Sarevok because after seeing the PC’s example he understands and wants to be good, and his shift reflects that. If someone genuinely regrets their evil acts and has no intention of turning back, I don’t think it’s fair that they be barred from being classified as good.

    Viconia is a different story. She becomes True Neutral because she’s selfish as all hell and ONLY “changes” at all for the PC. It’s, simply put, “I won’t do evil things anymore so you’ll still love me.” I don’t believe Neutral is simply ‘good with flaws’. There’s a self-serving aspect to being neutral-aligned.

    I also disagree with what seems to be the notion that Aerie as a character is fundamentally corruptible. She’s not... at least not in the good-evil sense.

    But Sarevok lived like 20-30 years convinced in his evil ways. He was even willing to start a war merely to please Bhaal. Should he be persuaded to throw it all aside just like that and become the opposite of what he was for so long? Personally I think that the problem with ToB is that its rather short which is why such a drastic change happening in such a short amount of time seems unrealistic. I could see if Sarevok was spared in BG1 and joined the PC to see how he/she became so strong and to perhaps kill him/her after figuring that out. Then by seeing the PC in action Sarevok turns Chaotic Neutral by the end/middle of Shadows of Amn and Chaotic Good by the end of Throne of Bhaal.

    Also...Sarevok's ending whether redeemed or not seems to imply that Sarevok is more than anything Chaotic Neutral by then. He saves a city and takes over it shortly afterwars. Then he leaves and goes to kick some ass just because. The epilogue outright says that Sarevok was someone who did not know himself. Probably as a result of how he lived his life for so long and how the PC affected him.

    As for Viconia IMO she seemed the most reasonable of the evil companions. Not crazy like Korgan and looking for blood nor masturbating to the idea of betraying someone like Edwin and his muttering under the nose. Those guys were easily as selfish as her if not more. True, a big part of her choosing to stay with the PC was for protection but such level of pragmatism does not strike me as too evil. Viconia was betrayed quite a couple of time by surfacers and alomost burned to death. So why should she be nice to them or generous in any way? The PC was the only person since her brother who was kind to her.

    Viconia seems to hate herself after falling for a male PC since she thinks it to be a weakness. She fears that she will get hurt (whether via heartbreak or death brought by such weakeness) and it terrifies her. The fact that she feels that way towards a surfacer despite her being told all her life that males are worthless and surfacers are pathetic puts her in a state where her whole set of beliefs is being challenged and she no longer understands herself. After a time she starts worrying about the PC due to believing that Loth may hurt him. She wants him to hate her so that neither of them has to suffer. Alas by the time of Throne of Bhaal she seems to get more comfortable with the idea of love and seems to fully embrace it in her romance edning. Her being Neutral implies that she had not thrown away everything she believed all her life (after all only the PC had treated her well and not other surfacers) but she is willing to protect the guy she loves and her children. Not a Neutral Good person who will throw away her life for some stranger though.

    Her fear of love and her bitterness seem to remind me somewhat of Morrigan in Dragon Age.

  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,307
    morrigan's character arc was inspired by vicky's. heck alot of bioware's characters come from bg 2 and kotor.

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