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Alignment options for a vigilante NPC

m7600m7600 Member Posts: 319
edited September 2020 in Off-Topic
So, I've always liked the endless debate that ensues when someone asks "What alignment is Batman?", or, less famously, "What alignment is The Punisher?". But, for some time, this got me thinking: if you had to make mod for BG2 that introduces a vigilante NPC, what alignment would you give that character?

Obviously there's no class or kit called "vigilante". So let's say that the character in question is a fighter. If this is all the information you had, how would you go about creating the NPC in question?

Here's my take: the NPC had a dayjob as an Amnian guard, but he quit because he thought the system was corrupt. He is Lawful Neutral, for more or less the same reasons as Vhailor from Planescape: Torment. Granted, he acts outside the law of his society, but he does so in order to enforce his own idealized notion of "justice".

Thoughts?

Comments

  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,673
    I would say most vigilantes would be chaotic or neutral. Vigilantism seems like one of those things that by definition is not lawful, especially in the realms. It was discouraged in Anomens test and even changed his alignment to chaotic.

    Although I suppose you could be someone with a very strict code that operates in a society that doesn't properly catch or punish criminals, then I suppose an argument could be made for it. I might argue someone who punishes criminals beyond what the law states is fitting punsihment fits the definition of good rather than lawful however, since they have went beyond the letter of the law and abided primarily by their own concience. Of course, someone like that could always take it too far and end up evil. Whether or not that character is good, neutral, or evil, depends entirely on his motivations and methods.

    I like alignment discussions. Anything can be seen a number of different ways, just like many real life situations.
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    Curiously enough, Vigilante is a base class in Pathfinder. :p

    To me vigilantes are chaotic through and through since they take the law into their own hands and deliver day in and day out their whimsey self-righteous like some sort of commercial slogan. If I were to create such a vigilante NPC for Baldur's Gate, I'd probably choose either Thief or make some sort of "urban" Ranger kit.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    A vigilante would have to be chaotic, since the concept of a "vigilante" is someone who intentional works outside the rule of law. Its a specific disregard for due process by default. So pick a chaotic anything and you're good.
  • m7600m7600 Member Posts: 319
    edited September 2020
    Ok, based on your feedback, here are some blueprints.

    Chaotic Good Vigilante: This guy is an idealist. He understands that the system has its limits, and that certain criminals are able to exploit those limits in order to get away with their wrongdoings. That being the case, he chooses to act outside the law in order to catch them. He realizes that this turns himself into a criminal as well, but he believes that "the end justifies the means". He works closely with a few members of law enforcement who appreciate what he does. When he catches criminals, he hands them over to the authorities. He only kills the bad guys if he has no other choice.

    Chaotic Neutral Vigilante: This guy is a pragmatist, although other people would describe him as cynical. His modus operandi is similar to the Chaotic Good Vigilante, except for the fact that he demands monetary compensation when he hands over the criminals to the authorities. In other words, he's a mercenary. For him, vigilantism is a business opportunity. He's different from bounty hunters in that he doesn't wait for an official "Wanted: Dead or Alive" poster, rather, he goes after whichever bad guy have evaded the system, and then asks for a reward.

    Chaotic Evil Vigilante: This guy is a sadist. He's a vigilante for the wrong reasons, because his motivations are entirely selfish and twisted. He doesn't hand over criminals to the authorities. Instead, he enjoys torturing and killing them. In other words, he punishes criminals because he gets off on it. For him, vigilantism is a source of amusement and enjoyment.

    EDIT: I had written "Neutral Good" instead of "Chaotic Neutral".
  • ilduderinoilduderino Member Posts: 773
    edited September 2020
    I guess this could be looked at the other way around and a vigilante could be a lawful character, enforcing the law in a chaotic environment where there would otherwise be no law
  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,659
    edited September 2020
    ilduderino wrote: »
    I guess this could be looked at the other way around and a vigilante could be a lawful character, enforcing the law in a chaotic environment where there would otherwise be no law

    I think it's important to consider that a personal sense of lawfulness or justice can used instead of a general societal concept of justice. You could say the same thing for Divine justice overriding society's justice.

    I can imagine a Lawful Good Paladin freeing slaves in a society that legally and morally tolerates slavery - and see him considered a vigilante. I can imagine Batman considering himself lawful as he exposes the corruption of Gotham PD.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    ilduderino wrote: »
    I guess this could be looked at the other way around and a vigilante could be a lawful character, enforcing the law in a chaotic environment where there would otherwise be no law

    I think it's important to consider that a personal sense of lawfulness or justice can used instead of a general societal concept of justice. You could say the same thing for Divine justice overriding society's justice.

    I can imagine a Lawful Good Paladin freeing slaves in a society that legally and morally tolerates slavery - and see him considered a vigilante. I can imagine Batman considering himself lawful as he exposes the corruption of Gotham PD.

    The Paladin isn't inherently adverse to rule of law though. They support where it doesn't conflict with good. Vigilante, as a concept, is someone who is specifically and intentionally acting outside the law because they see it as inadequate. Anybody can do something unlawful if they feel it matches their values, but only a vigilante does so as their modus operandi. Someone who believes that official organizations CANNOT effectively uphold justice.
  • m7600m7600 Member Posts: 319
    Ok, let's see if this makes sense:

    Lawful Good Vigilante
    : This guy doesn't see himself as a vigilante. He is a private citizen who pursues and catches criminals, but he is quick to point out that what he does falls under the scope of "citizen's arrest", not vigilantism. According to him, everything he does is "by the book", so no laws are broken when he apprehends criminals. While the legal system of his society does grant him (and everyone else) the legal authority to make citizen's arrests, his modus operandi is generally considered to be unprofessional and potentially harmful by the city's legal authorities.
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 1,332
    Stuff like "a paladin doing good deeds in a Lawful Evil nation" or "the honorable Barbarian who adheres to his own personal code of honor" is why these days I tend to use a different interpretation of Lawful/Chaos. Instead of Law being all about "following the rules" or Chaos being all about "breaking the law", I instead interpret it as follows:

    The Law/Chaos axis of your alignment indicates HOW you like to approach life. Lawful types are people who prefer an orderly, methodical approach to life. They're the people who make plans, schedules, have a "standard procedure" for dealing with situations etc. They enjoy "bringing order to chaos", and as such TEND to obey laws (mostly because the reverse would result in more instability and unpredictability in their life, and they don't like that.) To use a real life example, they are the type of person who, before assembling a piece of furniture, will read the instruction booklet front to back before even beginning, preferring to know exactly what's coming and what they need to do.

    In contrast, Chaotic characters are people who like to live "fly by the seat of your pants" lives. They prefer to operate on things like gut feeling and instinct, and thrive on novelty and unpredictability. It's not that Chaotic types can't understand or appreciate the importance of plans, or that they don't have long-term goals/dreams. Rather, they're more the type of person who are more than willing to throw those plans out the window the moment something more interesting comes along, like a person who agrees to meet you at a bar for drinks after work, but then calls you 5 mins later to say they spotted an interesting bistro they want to try instead. To use the example above again, a Chaotic type is the person who NEVER reads instruction manuals, instead preferring to dive right in while thinking "Eh, I'll figure it out as I go along."

    So with that in mind, it is indeed entirely possible to have Lawful vigilantes. Batman would be an excellent example of a Lawful Good vigilante. He believes in having plans (and gadgets) for every contingency, does his research before diving into new situations, and ultimately believes in working WITH law enforcement to catch the criminals that fall through the cracks or that the police are unable to tackle on their own. On the opposite end of the spectrum, Deadpool is an excellent example of a Chaotic Good/Neutral vigilante. While he ultimately does go after "bad guys", he maintains a haphazard approach to doing things and often dives right into situations without knowing what exactly he's going to do, trusting instead that he (or his regenerative powers) will find some way out of it.
  • m7600m7600 Member Posts: 319
    I think that D&D's alignment system has always caused confusion, especially the Law / Chaos axis. Even before the 1st edition of AD&D, it was already confusing. To the extent that Gygax tried to clear things up in a note that he published in 1976, titled "The Meaning of Law and Chaos in Dungeons & Dragons and Their Relationships to Good and Evil". Take a look at the opening paragraph:

    "Many questions continue to arise regarding what constitutes a “lawful” act, what sort of behavior is “chaotic”, what constituted an “evil” deed, and how certain behavior is “good”. There is considerable confusion in that most dungeonmasters construe the terms “chaotic” and “evil” to mean the same thing, just as they define “lawful” and “good” to mean the same. This is scarcely surprising considering the wording of the three original volumes of DUNGEONS & DRAGONS. When that was written they meant just about the same thing in my mind — notice I do not say they were synonymous in my thinking at, that time. The wording in the GREYHAWK supplement added a bit more confusion, for by the time that booklet was written some substantial differences had been determined. In fact, had I the opportunity to do D&D over I would have made the whole business very much clearer by differentiating the four categories, and many chaotic creatures would be good, while many lawful creatures would be evil. Before going into the definitions of these four terms, a graphic representation of their relative positions will help the reader to follow the further discourse. (Illustration I)"
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    Alignment was always rather poorly executed, flimsy and on top very loosely done in D&D. No matter its editions. Personale, I vastly prefer how Pathfinder has tackled it. Especially when it comes down to the Law vs. Chaos conflict.
    Law Versus Chaos
    Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties. Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it.

    Law: Law implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include closed-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, self-righteousness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.

    Chaos: Chaos implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them.

    Neutral: Someone who is neutral with respect to law and chaos has some respect for authority and feels neither a compulsion to obey nor a compulsion to rebel. She is generally honest, but can be tempted into lying or deceiving others.
    Chaotic Good even has an official philosophy section specificly for vigilantes. :)
    Vigilantes
    Vigilantes believe those individuals enforcing the laws of the land are too lazy or uncaring to effectively punish evildoers, or that their hands are tied by the law. Therefore, vigilantes step forward to deliver justice to wrongdoers, serving as both judge and punisher for thieves, thugs, and murderers. When their prey happens to be slavers or violent oppressors, vigilantes sometimes cross paths with freedom fighters. For vigilantes, justice must be delivered at all costs, and they risk their own lives to keep the lives of innocents safe and secure.

    If you are a vigilante, you:
    • Value the justice delivered by your own hand.
    • Are motivated to punish evildoers.
    • Disregard laws to bring about your own justice, and are, therefore, often a wanted individual.
    Code: You risk limb and life to bring wrongdoers to justice for their crimes, and in doing so, make life better for others.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    @m7600 I don't think any lawful character could be a vigilante. Vigilantism is ant-lawful, and is consistent about it. Any lawful character who attempts vigilantism is in for a very quick alignment shift.
  • m7600m7600 Member Posts: 319
    @ThacoBell I do see your point. I guess it depends on how one interprets the concept of "lawful". If it refers to following the laws of society, my question is: how would you explain Edwin's case? Being Lawful Evil, one would think that he follows society's laws only for tormenting others and for his own benefit. However, he was associated with the Shadow Thieves, and he asks Charname to commit robbery and murder. He probably committed those acts himself, several times. This is against Amnian law, so how can he be Lawful Evil if he routinely breaks the law?
  • ilduderinoilduderino Member Posts: 773
    edited September 2020
    Being a vigilante can be about enforcing the law where existing law enforcement is inadequate eg the authorities are stretched or corrupt. The motivation is to enforce the laws. Is a citizens’ arrest a vigilante action? Is the line crossed when there is no citizens‘ arrest procedure but a suspect is restrained and left outside the guards’ station?

    Does being lawful mean you have to accept every law? What about a lawful character sent from one nation to another country eg to bring back a convicted criminal? They may be perceived as a vigilante where they are operating but are acting lawfully under their own nation’s rules and they are actually enforcing them.

    A lawful good character may free slaves in a land where slavery is lawful - because it is a “good” outcome, because they view slavery as unlawful, because slavery is unlawful where they come from, is against their deity’s laws or a variety of other reasons. The local slave traders would see them as a vigilante.

    After a revolution when the rebels form a government and enact new laws, which they follow, do they cease to be chaotic and become lawful?

    Daredevil tries to prosecute criminals but when the law is inadequate he takes the law into his own hands, albeit he is not a killer. So he tries to enforce the law but when the law fails he tries to obtain a good outcome under his own authority. I guess he is a lawful chaotic good vigilante?
  • m7600m7600 Member Posts: 319
    ilduderino wrote: »
    Daredevil tries to prosecute criminals but when the law is inadequate he takes the law into his own hands, albeit he is not a killer. So he tries to enforce the law but when the law fails he tries to obtain a good outcome under his own authority. I guess he is a lawful chaotic good vigilante?

    Sounds like Neutral Good, IMO.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    m7600 wrote: »
    @ThacoBell I do see your point. I guess it depends on how one interprets the concept of "lawful". If it refers to following the laws of society, my question is: how would you explain Edwin's case? Being Lawful Evil, one would think that he follows society's laws only for tormenting others and for his own benefit. However, he was associated with the Shadow Thieves, and he asks Charname to commit robbery and murder. He probably committed those acts himself, several times. This is against Amnian law, so how can he be Lawful Evil if he routinely breaks the law?

    Edwin follows the laws and customs of the Red Mages. That is his law. Hence lawful evil. Lawful doesn't mean you follow all laws, more like you respect the concept of law and have a strict moral code for yourself.
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