Minsc is not a good guy...
Bargoth125
Member Posts: 8
There, I've said it. As controversial as this may sound, Minsc is not a good guy.
The point is, these are not the traits of a good, well-rounded individual. In fact it's somewhat of a miracle that Minsc hasn't murdered someone in rage prior to meeting CHARNAME. He is not a good guy, nor is he a bad guy, he's just batshit insane. His alignment should be Chaotic Neutral.
The first time you meet him in Nashkel, he comes across as this nutjob talking to a hamster. You rightfully get creeped out by his demeanor and refuse to help him, or you're just a simple traveler, unable help him, he'll go berserk and attack you.
You agree to help him and begin traveling together. Unfortunately you also have a mine to clear out of kobolds. Priorities, priorities... You take a detour and take too long to rescue Dynaheir, he will go berserk and attack you.
You've rescued Dynaheir, so far so good. Unfortunately for her, a stray arrow has just claimed her life. Minsc will go berserk and attack you, and anyone else who happens to be around.
You've been framed for the murder of the Iron Throne leaders, and now the corrupt officers of the Flaming Fist begin pursuing you. You rightfully fight back in self defense. Minsc will turn against you and attack you (which to be fair, the same goes for any good aligned party member, which has always been major BS as far as I'm concerned. Defending yourself against corrupt officers should not be classified as an evil act in the world of fantasy, but I digress.)
You've just awoken in Irenicus' dungeon, and in the cage cater-cornered from you is the one with Minsc in it. You have to release him, but the bars have been fused shut and there is no way of opening the gate. You try to explain the situation as reasonably as you can, but he just goes berserk, breaks free of his cage, and almost proceeds to pummel you to the ground before coming to his senses last second, thinking you tricked him into freeing himself.
Minsc befriends Aerie or Nalia, becoming one of their bodyguard. Unfortunately they then fall to a stray arrow. Minsc goes berserk and attacks everyone indiscriminately.
You agree to help him and begin traveling together. Unfortunately you also have a mine to clear out of kobolds. Priorities, priorities... You take a detour and take too long to rescue Dynaheir, he will go berserk and attack you.
You've rescued Dynaheir, so far so good. Unfortunately for her, a stray arrow has just claimed her life. Minsc will go berserk and attack you, and anyone else who happens to be around.
You've been framed for the murder of the Iron Throne leaders, and now the corrupt officers of the Flaming Fist begin pursuing you. You rightfully fight back in self defense. Minsc will turn against you and attack you (which to be fair, the same goes for any good aligned party member, which has always been major BS as far as I'm concerned. Defending yourself against corrupt officers should not be classified as an evil act in the world of fantasy, but I digress.)
You've just awoken in Irenicus' dungeon, and in the cage cater-cornered from you is the one with Minsc in it. You have to release him, but the bars have been fused shut and there is no way of opening the gate. You try to explain the situation as reasonably as you can, but he just goes berserk, breaks free of his cage, and almost proceeds to pummel you to the ground before coming to his senses last second, thinking you tricked him into freeing himself.
Minsc befriends Aerie or Nalia, becoming one of their bodyguard. Unfortunately they then fall to a stray arrow. Minsc goes berserk and attacks everyone indiscriminately.
The point is, these are not the traits of a good, well-rounded individual. In fact it's somewhat of a miracle that Minsc hasn't murdered someone in rage prior to meeting CHARNAME. He is not a good guy, nor is he a bad guy, he's just batshit insane. His alignment should be Chaotic Neutral.
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Comments
Minsc has brain damage. He lacks intelligence and wisdom and has mental health issues. That's not the opposite of Good. I understand how you arrive at the conclusion "insane=chaotic neutral".
But Minsc's motivation is clearly of Good alignment. I'm sure someone else can quote a lot of situations to prove that. I can think of several situations where he wants to help people or animals just because it's the right thing to do.
He lacks judgement and control. That's a problem, of course, but it's independent of the good-neutral-evil axis, I think.
Minsc isn't perfect, but he's a good man who in the heat of his battle frenzy sometimes loses sight of who is friend or foe.
"In fact it's somewhat of a miracle that Minsc hasn't murdered someone in rage prior to meeting CHARNAME. "
As far as this goes I'd take this a step further. It's quite likely he has murdered somebody in his rage prior to meeting Charname. We've seen how he is. The only reason he doesn't kill any innocents throughout the campaign is that spends most of our time with him under player control, and the player has the reload button for if things go south with him.
That doesn't preclude a good alignment though. The qualifications are a lot more lax than you're picturing them imo.
If anything, now that I think about it, it's almost like that one D&D player we all know that grossly exaggerates their character's low intelligence and wisdom way out of proportion when in reality their actual stats are just below average to low. Just going at it stats-wise, Minsc would be a loud, forgetful oaf that's also socially awkward, but nothing about his stats justifies such poor judgement that he would randomly attack anyone who refused to help him or simply couldn't, or for that matter believe that his hamster can talk... He has enough intelligence and wisdom, given his stats, to be held accountable for his actions. I think at that point, he is actually making the conscious decision of attacking anyone unwilling to help him, and that's even worse! That just tells me he has some serious anger issues.
Keep in mind, this is a 7-foot behemoth of a man with a huge sword we're talking about, not some random Marl at an inn. God forbid, a poor fellow accidentally piss him off, there is no saving him, it'll be a slaughterhouse.
I guess I can somewhat forgive going berserk in the heat of battle though, guess that's a risk you gotta take when choosing to travel with him, and even the sharpest of minds can be impaired by a powerful enough confusion spell anyway.
There's stupid and there's brain damaged, and those are two very different things. If you ask Dynaheir why he's like this when you meet, she says he took a blow to the head in battle and hasn't been the same since.
Used to know a brain damaged person who would compulsively drink anything. His caretakers had to lock up all the cleaning chemicals, all the alcohol, the toilet and sink because if he could just get his hands on any fluid he'd drink until he made himself sick. Not like his mental faculties were completely ruined in other areas but around fluids he was pretty clearly not in control of his own actions anymore. Where is that on the Intelligence Chart? Is that a 6? an 8?
If Minsc before his head injury was anything like the Minsc we knew today he probably only took the head injury in the first place defending some maiden from some nefarious agent like your classic knight in shining armor. Does that factor into the equation at all here?
I have no doubt Minsc was a shining example of chivalry prior to his head injury.
The real question is, if I rudely dismiss this huge, crazy homeless man on a street corner babbling to his hamster, as I realistically would, is my life forfeit?
He's seeking help to rescue not only an important person he was charged with keeping safe, but also a close and trusted companion. You're options to refuse him are...to insult him. No really, you cannot turn Minsc down without dialogue that no good aligned pc should say. He calls you out for insulting someone seeking help and making like of a what will be a nightmarish and grisly murder. Clearly not the actions of someone outside the evil alignment. Hardly attacking a "simple traveller" or someone "unable to help him." Especially since he takes his measure of you before asking. There's no way he propsitioned some random commoner and then killed him for not being able to help.
"You agree to help him and begin traveling together. Unfortunately you also have a mine to clear out of kobolds. Priorities, priorities... You take a detour and take too long to rescue Dynaheir, he will go berserk and attack you."
You agreed to help with a rescue mission where time if of the essence. Dyna is already in the hands of Gnolls preparing to devour her. That's not something you put off. "Oh sure, we'll rescue your friend, but hold on. I need to clear some rats out of this dude's basement first. Then I need to fix the mayor's wagon." Like, that's not well adjusted behaviour. If someone acted like this in real life, it'd be a pretty good soft sign of sociopathy.
"You've been framed for the murder of the Iron Throne leaders, and now the corrupt officers of the Flaming Fist begin pursuing you. You rightfully fight back in self defense. Minsc will turn against you and attack you (which to be fair, the same goes for any good aligned party member, which has always been major BS as far as I'm concerned. Defending yourself against corrupt officers should not be classified as an evil act in the world of fantasy, but I digress.)"
Who says the officers are corrupt? They under the direct payroll of the Iron Throne (Angelo being the current head of the FF.) Some of them even help you. You have access to magic invisibility, an underground system that spans the city, or even just stealthy scouting. If you choose to ignore all that and just slaughter your way through them because you can? Or because its easier? Yeah, good characters have every right to be ticked at that.
"You've just awoken in Irenicus' dungeon, and in the cage cater-cornered from you is the one with Minsc in it. You have to release him, but the bars have been fused shut and there is no way of opening the gate. You try to explain the situation as reasonably as you can, but he just goes berserk, breaks free of his cage, and almost proceeds to pummel you to the ground before coming to his senses last second, thinking you tricked him into freeing himself."
Reasonably? There is not conclusion to that conversation outside of "You're insane, I'm not freeing you." or "Dynaheir died because you suck. I'm leaving you." Saying this is reasonable is some revisionist history
Independant of all this, he's also very protective of animals and children. To the point of being incredibly gentle. Jumps to the defense of anyone in trouble, and doesn't really seem to have much of a concept of bigotry. Accepting anyone who doesn't demonstrate sadistic tendencies.
Okay, this is a side tangent, but were the gnolls gonna eat Dynaheir? It's been a while since I did this questline but I thought they were just like demanding a ransom or something.
The gnolls as a whole? Probably not. Some of them? Definitely. From dialogue with Ingot, a gnoll you meet east of the fortress:
"The forrtrrresss to the wesssst! I wisshed to rrrroasst the captive when the otherrrs would rather let herrr live within that cellarrr! Foolss! And now my brrrethrren make me an exile frrrom my own clan! Hearrr me: I ssshall tassste herrr flessh yet!"
It appears the "Don't eat her" faction held the majority, and expelled the "Eat her" faction.
Incidentally, that dialogue with Ingot leads to Minsc berserking if he's in the party.
Some wanted to eat her, some didn't. Being 2e Gnolls, there's no telling how long she had.
Conversely it is also not implausible that the gnolls in the stronghold, or more likely their more intelligent Flind cousins among their ranks, were somehow in contact with the Chill, and perhaps the reason why they elected not to eat Dyneheir is because they thought that a Rashemi wizard would be a valuable tribute to Tazok and his Iron Throne bosses to gain their favor.
Eh, Occam's Razor. There's no evidence that these Gnolls were part of the bandit coalition. Besides, All but, what, 3? 4? Gnolls at the bandit camp were locked (guarded and held?) in a cave for being too violent. Doesn't speak well for Dynaheir's time.
1. She's about to become the main course at dinner
2. The gnolls plan to sacrifice her to Yeenoghu (not a pleasant way to go, since Yeenoghu's preference for sacrificial victims is to have them burnt alive)
3. They are holding her for ransom, but considering that Dynaheir only has Minsc around, who exactly are they holding her ransom for? It could be that Dynaheir managed to talk them into it, but I suspect that the most likely option is that the gnolls were planning on sacrificing Dynaheir and it was only a matter of time. (IIRC, clerics of Yeenoghu usually conduct their sacrifices on the night of the new moon.)
It's gotta be just like shinies and meat and such, right? Like a sack full of those baubles that grandmas put on their shelves or something.
I argued the very same thing a number of years ago.
However, I would also argue that the devs seemed to have retooled his personality in the sequel so that he's much closer to (chaotic)good than he was in the first game.
Incidentally, Minsc was considered neutral good in BG1, which is just ridiculous IMO.
That's Dynaheir's influence. Without her, he has a harder time keeping his rages under control without her support. Hence the slide to chaotic.
If I recall, a lot of the promotional material for BG2 also played up how Minsc had been driven "crazier than ever" by the tortures he experienced in Ironicus' dungeon.
Though since his characterization in BG1 was so sparse, it's kind of hard to tell exactly what's different and why based purely on the games themselves.
The player character seems to have some memory loss though, and Imoen seems to have some new PTSD triggers. Jaheira's mentally much worse for wear, though it gets chalked up mostly the loss of her husband and the traumatic exposure to his completely mangled corpse. It seems fair to say that the dungeon experience was pretty rough on us all mentally, and Minsc is maybe just a tad more fragile in that department than the rest of the group.
yeah her death is why minsic is more unhinged in 2.
and it's worth noting he isnt as crazy in the npc project or sod.
the memory loss is player dependent. it's only there so new players get backstory info. it stops being a choice by chapter 2.
Exactly how much memory is lost is player dependent, but I'm pretty sure no matter what dialogue choices you choose, you've forgotten at least a bit.
it's mostly when talking to imoen, jaheria and minsc for the first time.
Jaheira is pretty egregious though. The way she's written, there's no way to avoid her explaining the last game to you as if you forgot everything.