is it worth turning a sorcerer into a dragon disciple?

sarevok57

so i'm wondering if there is really any disadvantage of hitting level 20 in sorcerer and then multi classing over to dragon disciple, if i do would i lose;

spell penetration levels?
good spell casting feats?
durations for spells?
damage cap for spells ( like horrid wilting ) ?

or should i just keep going sorcerer all the way to the top, or should i multiclass into dragon disciple at a higher level? ( pretty sure i can hit level 30 by the end of HotU and i guess i can do infinite dungeons to hit level 40 )

Zaxares

I'm not really a min-maxer, but off the top of my head, I think the biggest drawback would be that you lose access to some of the Epic Spell (and epic spellcasting) feats, which provide a nice bit of flavour for epic-level spellcasting. (As to whether the epic spells are actually any GOOD... Well, that's debatable. XD)

WarChiefZeke

Not really any disadvantages, but no advantages either. Going past 20 in sorcerer will let you get epic spells. Dragon Disciple will get you some stats and abilities that will make you better in psychical combat, not really necessary.

RDD is a fun prestige class and it can be very useful but it's really meant for those who rely on their weapons first and casting as a supplement.

sarevok57

well some of the things that are nice with RDD are;

+4 AC, which is very noticeable even for casters
+2 CHA which would give me more spells and make my DCs higher
immune to fire, that is a big one, being immune to that is a very nice

and actually that +8 STR will be nice, just for packing on extra items, so then i can have the STR to hold inventories of bags

the CHA and fire resistance are the big reason why i want to dual over, so as long as RDD levels goes towards duration and spell penetrations i should be good to go?

WarChiefZeke

Reasonable. Well in that case, go for it.

But it won't increase caster level, so iirc no increased durations or spell penetration. But "epic spell penetration" should be right around the corner.

sarevok57

i was afraid of that, how high does spell resistance get for creatures in HoTU? because if it ever goes pass 46 then there is a 0% chance of by passing SR with a level 20 sorcerer ( well i guess MD can lower it by 10 for a short duration, but still )

WarChiefZeke

IIRC, the only person you are gonna have trouble with is Big M, and even then no amount of spell penetration would help. You just gotta use different tactics here, or use the other option.

sarevok57

by the looks of it, i couldn't find SR anywhere for big M, he has lots of damage resistances but no SR

if that is the scenario then hopefully i should be fine

WarChiefZeke

Yeah, basically how he works is

Nothing but acid damage really works against him. Best to stock up on several acid spells. Oh, and he uses a spear. Worth keeping in mind, I don't want to spell it out.

laurabuzz

A bunch of junk about SR caps and dispels:

The maximum spell resistance in the base game ('toolset SR') is 32. It's possible for a builder to increase a creature's spell resistance beyond this, but I believe the only way to do it is a bit finnicky and requires scripting. Most people just shoot for 32 SP and call it good; if someone is setting SR higher it's to mess with magic-users anyway.

RDD levels do not add to spell penetration or duration. SR works like this: You roll d20 and add your caster level for the spell you're trying to cast (so if you get Fireball from being a Sorcerer, you add your Sorcerer level; you dont get to add any levels taken in Wizard or Pale Master, etc.), plus any Spell Penetration you have (usually by taking the feats). If you roll over their SR, the spell works. Duration works similarly: caster level of the spell you're casting only.

To penetrate toolset SR a level 20 sorcerer will add 20 to their roll, so they need a roll of 12 or more, ie. you'll hit 40% of the time. If you take all three SP feats you'll be adding 26, so you need a roll of 6 or more, ie. you'll hit 70% of the time. Okay, but not great. However, you can cast a breach spell that lowers spell resistance first; Greater Spell Breach lowers their SR by 5, and Mordenkanen's Disjunction lowers it by 10. These spells will always strip their SR, that part can't fail. So if you plan to use Mords on whatever is giving you trouble, you can get away with only taking the first Spell Penetration feat. This is fine imo, not that much stuff has SR.

However, I'd recommend taking at least 24 levels of Sorcerer if you're going that deep, because 24 levels makes you undispellable (nothing will dispell you except for Mords, which can't fail). If the enviornment you're going to play in doesn't have a lot of dispel effects it's fine to go less.

Sorry for the wall of text! Spoiler'd for everyone's convenience. I find it helpful to know the 'breakpoints', hopefully others do too.

In terms of an RDD Sorcerer, I don't think it works out pre-Epic but its a classic Epic build. Just not as a straight-up caster. While a sorcerer will appreciate the AC and CHA from the RDD, you're also losing out on their bonus feats in Epic. You could use two of your bonus feats on Great Charisma and three on the Automatic Still Spell feats; if you do that, at level 35 you'd have +2 CHA and the ability to cast in heavy armour, which will get you much more than 4 AC, plus you'll beat toolset SR; or you could take Epic Warding which prevents all physical damage. I think these are better for a straight caster.

IMO a good Sorc/RDD build will be a spellsword that uses their spells to control the battlefield. You want to leverage the eight points of strength you get from RDD. You can grab just enough CHA to cast 9th level spells (17 + the 2 from RDD will work) and prioritize spells with no save (so having high CHA doesnt matter). This character can load herself up with undispellable buffs, cast Time Stop and cut the bad guys to pieces, and if that doesn't finish them she can shut down enemy mages with Mords and let the brawn knock themselves out on her Mestil's Acid Sheath. You can even cast Ultravision on yourself and cast Darkness to blind everyone else.

There are a few builds like this on the 'Epic Character Builder's Guild' forum: one by Mick Dagger thats a Sorc/Pal/RDD and one by Maximillian Kane thats a Wizard(!)/Bard/RDD, you could look at those for inspiration.

HOTU is only going to take you to somewhere around level 26-27, though, so you'd have to plan for that. 10 levels of RDD leaves you with 16-17 levels of Sorcerer, just short of Time Stop, but you'll still have Acid Sheath, Greater Dispell, and Tensor's. There are some user modules that pick up where HOTU left off if you want to take the character further.