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Purely from a game design point of view, Imprisonment shouldn't exist in SoA

Guess this is more a little rant than anything else, but I just got imprisoned by that random ass mage in the Underdark with a way overleveled party and it got me thinking:

- Imprisonment immediately ends the campaign if cast on your Main Char

- It is often uninterruptable, at least temporarily

- It ignores Magic Resistance and there is no Saving Throw

- There is no counterplay except Spell Immunity: Abjuration

- It is not even really possible to know that Imprisonment belongs to the Abjuration School because the first scroll you find is in ToB. Maze is Conjuration btw., so you can't even deduce it from there. Afaik Imprisonment is the only Abjuration Spell that doesn't either protect you from something or removes protections. In that regard you could even argue it's off theme. According to the ingame description an Abjurer is someone who "specializes in protective magics".

- You don't even know what happened. Enemy casts green spell animation, Main Char stands in front of him, Main Char disappears, game is over. Might as well have been a bug from the perspective of a new player.


I'm sure there are some more reasons I could come up with, but that is basically he gist of it. The reason I'm saying from a game design point of view is because with enough background knowledge in D&D you could probably have known/guessed the spell exists and maybe figured out the SI: Abjuration one for example. Also, purely from a role-playing perspective, the spell could be interesting for some people. E.g. companion gets imprisoned by Kangaxx, you kill Kangaxx, you figure out later that there is actually a Freedom Spell to counteract the effects, you return from the Underdark and free your long lost companion. But let's be real here, almost no one plays the game like that. I'm pretty sure 99% of players would just reload or google what happened to their party.

In any case, the concept of the spell is a pretty cool idea in principle but all it does in the actual game is encourage reloading and cheese. But then again, I guess there are a lot of things in BG2 that are more or less impossible to beat on your first try without meta knowledge.

Permidion_StarkiosfrustrationgorgonzolaSharGuidesMyHandkaja8
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Comments

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,901
    D&D is full of things that can just kill you. Especially the older editions. Be glad BG isn't based on the original edition.

    sarevok57WarChiefZekegorgonzola
  • CyberliskCyberlisk Member Posts: 25
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    D&D is full of things that can just kill you. Especially the older editions. Be glad BG isn't based on the original edition.

    Which - again - is why I said purely from a game design point of view. I'm well aware that D&D, much like any other fantasy world, is inherently unfair. A well designed game on the other hand is supposed to give you adequate counterplay options to anything it throws at you. This is clearly not the case here.

    That being said, Baldur's Gate isn't balanced in that way in the first place when you think about it. You are not supposed to be able to beat everything on the first try when you play the game for the first time. Meta knowledge is part of the game and part of the fun so to speak. Most difficult encounters in the game absolutely smash you at first, then you reload and come up with a strategy and figure out what works and what doesn't. Eventually you find the perfect storm for every encounter and the difficulty becomes trivial.

    That is also why the whole debate on what should be considered cheese and what shouldn't is kinda moot. At the end of the day, the game is designed for you to enter difficult encounters with meta knowledge in order for you to beat them. E.g. if you actually just stumble upon the Twisted Rune fairly early in the game, you are fucked. Iirc you can't even rest in there. There is almost no way that a low-ish level party is prepared enough to handle that fight. Same with Kangaxx. If you don't know exactly what is coming then you might not even have a weapon that can damage him.

    So yeah, like I said... This was more like a little rant or a general observation on how a lot of the game is designed which is particularly obvious in the case of Imprisonment. For all its flaws, I still love this game, otherwise I wouldn't be playing it for the 50th.

  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 1,176
    Cyberlisk wrote: »
    There is no counterplay except Spell Immunity: Abjuration

    And Spell Deflection, Spell Turning, Spell Trap, Shield of the Archons, some items that cast spells of this type, the various sources of (improved) invisibility ...

    Imprisonment is an unfair spell, but let's not go overboard. There are a lot of ways to fight it, and you don't need to know the spell's school for most of them.

    ThacoBellgorgonzolaJuliusBorisovGrond0
  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 838
    If bg games not use the old dnd rules but use a ruleset that balanced for a pc game, a spell like imprisonement should never exists. But there is, and the balance logic behind it that is a reversible spell becuase freedom is exist.
    Not fair but in pnp its managable.
    In a pc game this spell needs to be save or suck with a very high penalty to saves and applies magic resistance as well.

    Off: there were a very well desinged sub-mod that removes magic resistance almost from the game and use only saving throws. I really liked it, because it stopped the dual-magic defensing attributes and seem so logical to use only one type the saving throws.

  • CyberliskCyberlisk Member Posts: 25
    jmerry wrote: »
    Cyberlisk wrote: »
    There is no counterplay except Spell Immunity: Abjuration

    And Spell Deflection, Spell Turning, Spell Trap, Shield of the Archons, some items that cast spells of this type, the various sources of (improved) invisibility ...

    Imprisonment is an unfair spell, but let's not go overboard. There are a lot of ways to fight it, and you don't need to know the spell's school for most of them.

    I guess I should have said reliable way of stopping it. Most enemies that are capable of casting Imprisonment also cast True Seeing and/or can innately see invisible and they usually open with Time Stop coupled with a few Power Words and what not, which usually gets rid of Spell Turning or Spell Deflection. Spell Trap is a Level 9 Spell so you don't have access to it in SoA unless you are using a Scroll or Staff of the Magi.

    Of course you can counter it with giga cheese as well, like SI: Divination + Mislead and what not but I was mostly talking from the perspective of someone who encounters the spell for the first time or doesn't know it's coming. If you do know it's coming the simplest solution is to cast SI: Abjuration anyway.

    kaja8
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,901
    Most rpgs have instant death spells, Imprisonment isn't really that unique, AND there are ways to counter it. Acting like its some travesty that shouldn't exist in the game is an overreaction.

  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 965
    From a game design point of view, I think it would be better to either make Bhaalspawn immune to imprisonment or else prevent enemies from casting it until after you encounter the imprisoned mage in the Underdark.

    Cyberliskkaja8
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    edited November 2
    Cyberlisk wrote: »
    You are not supposed to be able to beat everything on the first try when you play the game for the first time. Meta knowledge is part of the game and part of the fun so to speak. Most difficult encounters in the game absolutely smash you at first, then you reload and come up with a strategy .........................

    if you actually just stumble upon the Twisted Rune fairly early in the game, you are fucked. Iirc you can't even rest in there. There is almost no way that a low-ish level party is prepared enough to handle that fight. Same with Kangaxx. If you don't know exactly what is coming then you might not even have a weapon that can damage him.
    The Twisted Rune has been defeated from solo players straight out of the starting dungeon and Kangaxx if you know what to do is very easy.
    The mage in the underdark is tough, but those 3 encounters share something: they are completely optional and there are warnings that can let a player know, even a first time not spoiled one, that is wise not to fight them if you are not prepared.
    You agree to help a powerful mage, that even if was imprisoned himself is capable to enter elemental planes and come out of them, if you decide to betray him and attack him you do it at your own risk.
    You are warned about dealing with that coffin in the temple sewers, it is told to you that a great evil is there and that it is better to simply forget about it, again if you do it it is at your own risk.
    And for the rune you must have a very valuable stone in your inventory, a stone that a not spoiled player would probably sell as he found it to buy equipment or to rise the money for the Shadow Thieves or vampires, and there is also a warning about some evil related to that door, thing that afaik is true only for that particular one in all the game.

    3 encounters that are completely optional and that give you some hint about how dangerous they can be. But I agree, there are so many situations where a not spoiled player can have to reload in the game, due to the fact that not only charname has not to die, but there are other conditions that cause the game over.
    A thief charname has good chances to die disabling a certain trap in the maze under Spellhood, and right as you enter the Beholder area in the underdark a Beholder cast flesh to stone on someone, if that someone happens to be charname it is game over just like for an imprisonment, if he fails the save (ok, at least there is possible to save). And those are only 2 examples.
    And even if RP wise it has no sense that a charname imprisoned, turned to stone or killed but not chunked is game over, the party can have a scroll of freedom, a mage to turn him back to flesh or a cleric to resurrect him, it is a feature of the game, probably hard coded, that Beamdog did choose to keep for the EE.

    When I begun to play like 20 years ago I had no internet connection, I never passed trough the TR door as I had never a rogue stone with me, I found Kangaxx and found, after many defeats, the way to beat him, and I killed that mage in the underdark at the first try, he did not survive enough to imprison any one, but I also died probably 1000 times fighting way less powerful enemies, at that time vampires scared me, the dragons was borderline impossible to beat and I had to try a lot of times before I found some strategy that works against beholders ( I had a SoA only version so there was not that shield that make them much more easy).

    I don't see a real problem here, imprisonment is a nasty spell, but there are ways to counter it and a first time player not spoiled is not supposed to win without a reload, all the game is hard for him, and still this level of hardiness make the game very easy when you are experienced, there is a reason why most of the experienced players used in the past mods like tactics, now play with ScS and if the LoB difficulty has been introduced, it is what makes this game so great.
    It is a very complex game and to master the magic system, to master the combat one and to use at best the items needs a lot of knowledge, you pay with the reloads at the beginning to have more fun potentially for years of playing and still some experienced players don't dare to try to go no reload as it is still possible to die even if you have gone trough the game 100 times.

    ThacoBellJuliusBorisovGrond0
  • CyberliskCyberlisk Member Posts: 25
    @gorgonzola: With your first sentence about the Twisted Rune I'm not sure you even read my post or understood my point at all. Although you even quoted it, so I'm a bit confused. I never said TR was tough to beat, I'm saying it's almost impossible to do without meta knowledge on your very first try. These days TR is usually one of the first things I do in Athkatla as well. Same of goes for Kangaxx, but that's just the thing... nothing is difficult anymore once you know how the game works.

    Personally I'm not even bothering with ScS or LoB anymore because it just makes the game more tedious, but not more difficult. Almost everything is based on meta knowledge. My complaint about Imprisonment is just a particularly obvious symptom of the underlying game design. It is based on planning ahead as opposed to thinking on your feet. And the only thing that is difficult/dangerous about a no-reload run is that you might misremember something or get too cocky/lazy to look something up again.

    About the Underdark Mage: There are two btw., not only the you can betray (Vithal). There is also the insane one whose soul is trapped (Raevilin Strathi). You can either cast 'Heal' on him to cure his insanity or you can kill him. Anyway, both the imprisoned Mage and the insane Mage are absolutely trivial encounters. I just didn't bother casting SI: Abjuration when Raevilin spawned because I had simply forgotten he could cast Level 9 Spells. Vithal didn't even get a single spell off before I killed him because he was already 'Near Death' from the Elementals.

    What triggered my little rant is that there was no counterplay to Raevilin's Imprisonment within the actual fight. It sometimes frustrates me that your options to react to something you don't see coming are often very limited, which is a weakness of BG's game design. That doesn't mean this kind of game design doesn't have its upsides as well though.

    gorgonzolakaja8
  • WrathofreccaWrathofrecca Member Posts: 98
    Sure it's frustrating but it's also easy to counter once you learn the game and it's become a feature. Also many of the harder bosses are optional and designed to test puzzle solving, memory and skill for defeating. They also have multiple ways to tackle but a favorite go to is summoning an army of summons to bait out many of the harder spells before going in.

    As for magic resist it's not that big of a deal tbqh. On any difficulty your primary method for defeating NPCs should be physical damage with magic being a backup. If you know the game you can also do some stupid things with cloud kill and fireball to soften up most packs. If you swap to Legacy of Bhaal you will rely on physical damage for about 95% of your damage and magic resist is still only an issue on boss fights and the way you deal with it is the same. A lot of harder encounters become trivialized if you don't have to setup spell sequences and chain lower resistance spells at the beginning. Firkraag especially is a joke if you don't waste the first 1-3 rounds shredding his magic resistance with mage(s). Saving throws work both ways as well. The player characters and monks can gain magic resistance which is a huge deal in later portions of the game and nothing to sneeze at.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,901
    @Cyberlisk "What triggered my little rant is that there was no counterplay to Raevilin's Imprisonment within the actual fight. "

    React? This is D&D, you prepare ahead of time or be prepared to die. ESPECIALLY with high level mages.

    gorgonzola
  • WrathofreccaWrathofrecca Member Posts: 98
    I think the real frustration comes from not knowing you need to save ahead of time. This game is like 30 years old. Now a days it's a pre-requisite for games to autosave before they one shot us. BG is one of those games where if you forget to save and have to reload from a dungeon ago, you just log off for the night.

    ThacoBellkaja8
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,901
    Save early, save often. In multiple slots.

    gorgonzola
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 1,143
    I think it's fine. Imprisonment is used by very few enemies and in the Underdark it is both signalled by the Duergar at the start & there are freedom rolls available. It is true it is game over when used on CHARNAME, but that is true of a large number of instant kills as well. Plus it is an optional encounter.

    As for knowing it is an Abjuration spell: BG 2 is from a time where people used to look things up in the manual. All spells are listed with their spell school in there.

    ThacoBell
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    Cyberlisk wrote: »
    @gorgonzola: With your first sentence about the Twisted Rune I'm not sure you even read my post or understood my point at all. Although you even quoted it, so I'm a bit confused. I never said TR was tough to beat, I'm saying it's almost impossible to do without meta knowledge on your very first try.
    I understood perfectly your point, but you seem to have missed mine.
    That encounter is completely optional, there are in game clues that warn you about something really evil, so potentially really dangerous, luring behind that door. If you decide to walk in you should better be well prepared (rest to memorize again the spells, good items and fairly high level party), if not you should not complain if your party is wiped out fast.

    I think the real frustration comes from not knowing you need to save ahead of time. This game is like 30 years old. Now a days it's a pre-requisite for games to autosave before they one shot us. BG is one of those games where if you forget to save and have to reload from a dungeon ago, you just log off for the night.

    Your post I just quoted shows perfectly the difference of opinion you and I have about the game (and both the opinions are legittimate and good on their own).
    While modern games often baby sit the player, giving him auto saves and trading complexity for better graphics or complications the old school ones are way less forgiving, BG2 is not forgiving at all if you don't use meta game knowledge.
    The player should save often, the player is not granted that whatever level his party is he will be able to beat each enemy he finds quite easily.

    I personally like the old school and my way to play BG2 is to avoid as possible the help of meta game knowledge, I don't buff if I can not spot the enemy with a hidden scout or an other way before and I try as much as possible to avoid to exploit AI weaknesses, I try to fight as fair as possible, as my party lacks in game of the knowledge I have gathered in previous runs.
    But my party, doing so, tries to gather all the in game clues possible, my thief is always exploring the dungeons and if there is a clue that something really dangerous can be found in a place they maybe delay that encounter until they have levels and items that make them confident in succeeding.
    Ok I admit, when I play tactics mod I rely also on meta game, Irenicus in Hell, the Red Badge and other battles you find in that mod are too hard to go there "like if the party do not know", at least for me, but when we are talking of vanilla this is like I play and I have fun.
    And I save very often...

  • StummvonBordwehrStummvonBordwehr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 909
    edited November 2
    Imprisonment is a drag, and I was completely lost the first 100 times it was used against me.

    Then I found out about the 2 scrolls of protection from magic and Vhailors helmet you can buy at the adventurers market straight out of chateau Irenicus. If you have the funds.

    With those two in hand the above mentioned fights are trivialised. Even in a no re load run.

    I know these tactics are hard to come by if you haven’t consulted a walkthrough. Even the first ones I read had no mention of this - they probably ctrl - y’d Kangaxx. But to me these hard to come by solutions are the allure of the game. You can keep learning new stuff, and new ways of beating the game - even after 20 years.

    JuliusBorisovGrond0gorgonzola
  • IseweinIsewein Member Posts: 290
    The issue is gameover on Charname's death while everyone else can be resurrected (including Bhaalspawn...), not the spell. If others could cast freedom on Charname it would work better.

    gorgonzola
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,511
    edited November 2

    My biggest issue with imprisonment is that a beholder was able to successfully cast it on my party member who was equipped with the beholder-reflecting shield, instead of the spell being reflected back onto the beholder. Not sure if that's a bug or not, but it sure seems like a design flaw/imbalance if it was meant to be.

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 6,636
    Imprisonment is a drag, and I was completely lost the first 100 times it was used against me.

    Then I found out about the 2 scrolls of protection from magic and Vhailors helmet you can buy at the adventurers market straight out of chateau Irenicus. If you have the funds.

    With those two in hand the above mentioned fights are trivialised. Even in a no re load run.

    I know these tactics are hard to come by if you haven’t consulted a walkthrough. Even the first ones I read had no mention of this - they probably ctrl - y’d Kangaxx. But to me these hard to come by solutions are the allure of the game. You can keep learning new stuff, and new ways of beating the game - even after 20 years.

    Those scrolls are also handy as measures of last resort. The OP complained that there's nothing you can do to react to this spell once it's cast - but PfM can dispel maze/imprisonment after they're cast, but before they take effect. Theoretically dispel magic could do the same, but timing that correctly would probably be a challenge (I've never tried it).

    ThacoBellgorgonzola
  • DinoDinDinoDin Member Posts: 1,182
    Just going to chime in and say that while imprisonment was really frustrating when I first played this game and was ignorant, I can't say it's all that bad. As others have said, it really is no worse (especially for the protagonist) than several other instant death or huge damage spells in the game.

    And even a relatively inexperienced player learns to do things to protect their protagonist in the course of the game. Even without bothering to look up guides or knowing D&D rules. You quickly learn that all sorts of traps or even basic spells like hold can mean an instant game over.

    If anything, imprisonment is actually a tiny bit less frustrating that spells like disintegrate or some massive damage spells that risk permadeath, since you can bring back imprisoned companions.

    ThacoBellgorgonzola
  • MaurvirMaurvir Member Posts: 907
    The only real problem with imprisonment of the PC is that, due to game mechanics, it triggers a game over when it really shouldn't. Unfortunately, IE equates imprisonment to death, and there you go.

    In reality, it shouldn't be game over until your party is dead or also imprisoned, but I imagine that was too much of a check. Not to mention, it would be very possible to abuse the game in game breaking ways - given the sheer number of quests that demand the PC talk to them directly. I imagine there were ways to get around this, but the easiest was to just punt.

    Also, as others have pointed out, BG/BG2 already nerf the crap out of AD&D as it is. In a real campaign, it is very, very likely that your "party" would not have survived the opening cutscene without DM help. Your PC only survived due to "plot armor".

    gorgonzolaStummvonBordwehr
  • WrathofreccaWrathofrecca Member Posts: 98
    @gorgonzola I'm not advocating the removal of the spell but for me I think the party should I have an option to Freedom charname but we have game over which mechanically, doesn't make any sense. I'm happy with the mechanic as is I'm just pointing out people's possible frustration and poor coding.

    From a design standpoint the game has X amount of counter consumables which you must save for specific encounters which is good design imo. I personally fight the lich with 2 undead scrolls and just use them on whoever can hit him and park everyone else out of line of sight.

  • StummvonBordwehrStummvonBordwehr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 909
    edited November 3
    Grond0 wrote: »
    Imprisonment is a drag, and I was completely lost the first 100 times it was used against me.

    Then I found out about the 2 scrolls of protection from magic and Vhailors helmet you can buy at the adventurers market straight out of chateau Irenicus. If you have the funds.

    With those two in hand the above mentioned fights are trivialised. Even in a no re load run.

    I know these tactics are hard to come by if you haven’t consulted a walkthrough. Even the first ones I read had no mention of this - they probably ctrl - y’d Kangaxx. But to me these hard to come by solutions are the allure of the game. You can keep learning new stuff, and new ways of beating the game - even after 20 years.

    Those scrolls are also handy as measures of last resort. The OP complained that there's nothing you can do to react to this spell once it's cast - but PfM can dispel maze/imprisonment after they're cast, but before they take effect. Theoretically dispel magic could do the same, but timing that correctly would probably be a challenge (I've never tried it).

    That is true.

    Imprisonment is the DM’s d... move of the BG series.

    But in all fairness about the devs choices. You are given fair warnings before the encounters

    1) Kangaxx is guarded heavily, and the quest is completely optional as said. There are ample warnings about getting involved - 2 lich guardians the most notable.

    2) the underdark Wizard is imprisoned himself, and has just visited 3 astral planes of some sort - and you still have to rob him blindly? Some traps and a backstab would have been the safer move here if you thus inclined.

    3) the beholder lairs speaks for it self. If you want the eyesstalk, it’s in the first room. Going treasure hunting with the shield of Balduran is optional - and going into a beholder lair is ample warning in it self... well they are beholders.

    Any DM would pull the same move on you and you’re entire party if your ever push forward after the first or second warning I’d reckon.

    Post edited by StummvonBordwehr on
    ThacoBellJuliusBorisov
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,511
    kjeron wrote: »
    My biggest issue with imprisonment is that a beholder was able to successfully cast it on my party member who was equipped with the beholder-reflecting shield, instead of the spell being reflected back onto the beholder. Not sure if that's a bug or not, but it sure seems like a design flaw/imbalance if it was meant to be.
    It's one of the few spells they legitimately cast, it's not one of their eye/ray spells. They actually require and expend memorized copies of the spell, and can be interrupted like any other spell.

    Thanks a lot for clarifying that.

    I had no idea about this, so I was just letting my shield bearer stand in front of the beholders and wasn't even paying attention to whether one was casting a spell or not. Then the next thing I knew, the party member had just disappeared.

    gorgonzola
  • WrathofreccaWrathofrecca Member Posts: 98
    I just use summoned skeletons to zerg beholders anyhow. I think improve invisibility helps and I feel dirty using the shield.

    gorgonzola
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 1,159
    I just use summoned skeletons to zerg beholders anyhow. I think improve invisibility helps and I feel dirty using the shield.

    You'd feel EXTRA dirty using my strategy: "Give Jaheira the Shield of Balduran, have her run right into the middle of a beholder cluster, then cast Cloudkill on her. Jaheira is immune to poison as a high-level Druid. The beholders? Not so much. Now just sit back and watch the fun." ;)

    gorgonzolaThacoBellMaurvirBlackbɨrd
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 1,176
    Just how did this thread's topic mutate so far?

    If you only have one tactic for fighting beholders, you're doing it wrong. I mean, I used four different methods to fight the beholders in the Unseeing Eye quest in my last run, and none of those included the shield of Balduran (which I didn't buy at all that game). Or spellcasting power, which was forbidden by the run's rules.

    As for the thread's actual subject, Elder Orbs are beholders that are also spellcasters. There aren't many of them, but the standard version does have an Imprisonment memorized in the unmodded game. It's definitely something to watch out for.
    Since Imprisonment has a long casting time, it's fairly easy to disrupt the Orb. A weapon with elemental damage will do it, as will an area spell - though the Orb does have 50% magic resistance to watch out for.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    @jmerry completely agreed, I would say that almost all the battles in the vanilla game can be fought in many completely different tactics, and their problems can be solved in more then one way, and I would say also that to save before the hardest ones and, after winning them, to reload and fight them again using a different approach, is really useful as it compels you to expand your knowledge and look which of your available tools ( weapons, spells, tricks (not weak AI exploits) and tactics, can be the keys to solve a particular problem.
    I do it very often, you do it in a different way, playing different runs each one with some self given limitation, but the outcome is the same.

    Not only the not demilich sent imprisonment can be avoided hitting with elemental damage, through a weapon, ammo or spell, but insect spells and poisoning ammo can be used, and those can be used preemptively as prevent spell casting until their effect last, the orb has a good chance to save against a poisoning bolt, but with enough APR you can hit him many times before he casts that spell, at least one of the poisoning effects will kick in passing trough MR and ST, even better if he has been doomed or malisoned.
    In that particular case, but not in the case of the underdark mage, if i am not wrong the orb sees naturally trough invisibility, so the tactics to have the person he is casting at going invisible, plenty of potions to do it all the party in the game, as he his casting to have him loose the spell that fizzles, will not work, but anyway with good timing and an hasted party is quite easy to withdraw the party members from his sight before he begins to cast the spell and send a couple of cheap summons, one by one, so the summoned creature is the one imprisoned. It is also perfectly possible to lure him into some trap carpet, to overwhelm his protections with enough ranged apr to get trough his protections (even the combo PfMW + Stoneskin can be beaten with not enchanted ammo and enough apr to carve trough the skins and erode them, even if now I don't remember if he uses that combo in the vanilla game, I am quite convinced that he does not).

    And on and over, there are probably other 10 or 50 things that can be done.
    An impossible to solve problem is often only due to our lack of knowledge or more likely a lack of fantasy and flexibility of our own minds as happens often that we have both the knowledge and the tools at our disposal, but we fail to link together tool and problem to get a possible solution.

    By the way the Staff of Command, available in the underdark, that grants you a domination lasting 12 hours and that works on almost anything but a couple of bosses and allows no save, is one of the best tools at our disposal, and I almost never read about it as a possible problems solver, you can have almost all the enemies and most of the bosses in the game fight at your side against their former minions then gladly run into the trap carpets that you have prepared for them.

    Knowledge is power, but only if you are able to link the knowledge and the particular problem.

    Grond0Mantis37DinoDin
  • KorbenDallasKorbenDallas Member Posts: 28
    edited November 7
    I just encountered a bug regarding imprisonment. I'm playing the latest version of BG2EE and SCS, and I'm not sure if SCS had anything to do with it although I do have the component installed to custom level up NPCs.

    I was fighting Vithal in the Underdark and Anomen got imprisoned, after the fight I used a freedom scroll and he reappeared as a recruitable NPC. I added him back to my party and continued playing another section of the Underdark. After a while I checked my character's stats and noticed that Anomen was a level 16 cleric with 268,919 XP and needed 1,756,081 XP points to the next level, which is obviously incorrect, clerics level up every 200,000 XP points or so.

    Anyway, I had already cycled through Quicksaves so I had to compare my other characters' XP from the Chapter 5 start save to the current Quicksave, and I used the console to set Anomen's XP to what he should have. All of my other characters were fine. So I am attributing the cause to Anomen getting imprisoned by Vithal, and the game didn't correctly store his XP after I got him back.

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