The recent potion change will be revoked for 2.6 and there will be a new build 2.6.5.0 coming up soon with potions being stackable again.
A heavy-handed approach against bugs and inconsistencies works well 99% of the time but at some point an overstep occours. This was one of those times. It isn't our intention to make controversial changes to the game without a public discussion beforehand. The hp issue for Potions of Power will be left alone for now to be addressed at a later patch.
There are good arguments for nerfing potions (and protection scrolls) stacking as well as wand recharging in BG2. That will be up to third-party modders to create such tweaks for the time being.
That being said, bugs and exploits can still be patched more than 20 years later. Microsoft has recently fixed the building foundation exploit in AoE2:DE which was a go-to exploit for high-elo players in tournament competitions.
Exploits make a lot of sense to fix for fairness in competitive play. For single player games it is more a statement on what the game mechanics is supposed to be like.
If the creators intended for something that wasn't implemented properly - if at all - then sure, it ought to be corrected. If what's true to the spirit of the original is not to your liking then please, mod the game.
That said, I've never seen anything that proves potion-stacking to be an oversight from the developers. I mean, ACTUAL proof. If anyone has information on that, please tell us. If not, why would you “fix” something that's neither missing nor broken?
To that, some people argue that they want a challenge. I call it out as misleading. What you're asking is not a challenge for yourself but a change of rules for everyone. If you don't want to drink one potion after the other, then just don't. You don't need Beamdog for that and if you can't follow the rules you set for yourself, that's your responsibility. Not ours.
In the end, it all comes down to one simple fact : in the current state of the game you're free to follow your self-imposed rules regarding potions while others can cheese the game (do they really, anyway?) if they feel like it. Everybody's happy! To frustrate others with a so-called fix for something you could do from the start is ludicrous imo. I absolutely cannot wrap my mind around it.
I could understand such plea IF what you were trying to accomplish was out of your will, then an actual fix to make your game harder would be necessary with good reasons. Since this is not the case, I fail to see the point entirely. I could stop right there since I believe it's enough to dismiss the idea, but let's dig in a little deeper.
Others contend this is game-breaking. I could argue it isn't since the fix is aimed at the potion type and not the effect provided, so it's often possible to reach the same benefits with a combination of items, potions and spells. I could also point out that warriors and thieves will mostly benefit from potion stacking which mitigates the power gap with spellcasters. So if you're REALLY concerned with balance, you should support potion stacking to put a damper on the cycle of mages going unchallenged. Heck, you might even encourage players to use such trick to ramp up their power! Therefore, it's not game-breaking.
But let's assume it is, just for the sake of argument. First, let me say that there are MANY overpowered items, spells and even classes in Baldur's Gate. Breaking balance is not an argument in itself otherwise we wouldn't have a large majority of players who agree that the Fighter/Mage is the strongest of all classes and almost none who wish otherwise. In itself, arcane spellcasting reaches godly heights to the point it outshines pretty much everything else. Almost everyone accepts this because PVP was never core to Baldur's Gate so we don't need to balance everything out. This applies to items as well. Going crazy-powerful is FINE. It's part of the game's identity. You're not playing some unremarkable and unexceptional lad, are you?
So it's not enough to find something overpowered, it must feel undeserved. So how is being able to quaff identical potions such an outrage? Potions are not heaven-sent, they must be collected and managed. You might stack, sure, but you're not going to stack very long. So this is hardly a free ride and potion stacking is actually very niche. Most people will never use it and the people who WILL use it will do so to scribe scrolls without failure, most of the time. Does that sound horrendous? Finally, reaching power peaks for short periods of time is nowhere near unfamilar in Baldur's Gate so I fail to see what the fuss is about, no matter how you want to look at it.
I usually try to be moderate but this? It's just a bad idea to me and I think it's wise to revoke the “fix”... unless someone can bring hard evidence that it shouldn't work that way. Not in D&D, but in Baldur's Gate. These are two different entities, mind you.
There are a lot of personal feelings from players about this issue which I really like because it shows our commitment to the game. I actually think the discussions were quite refreshing and insightful from both sides of the coin.
I would like to end my contribution to the discussions with some notes on product development that are considered in my own line of work.
If a developer takes it in scope to change the behaviour of a certain feature, then that means they are making statements on what their vision is for their product, in this case related to the game mechanics.
Neither the player base nor the developers actually need to prove anything to anyone on whether the feature was a bug to begin with or not.
The full impact of the change can be deemed fine as is, but if too impactful it will often be addressed by a secondary feature change that will solve imbalances.
It could have been a strong statement of beamdog had they said, no, this is what we think our product (the game) should do and we change it accordingly (scope definition). These types of designs or calls are not rare. They define the boundaries to the user base.
However, beamdog shows that they took careful deliberation based on the feedback from the player base and made the decision to revert it because it is the least impactful on the player base. That is a different strength altogether (user engagement), and truthfully this is more often seen in a sustaining product than the first approach.
Either way, both responses and implementations by beamdog should be considered valid by the player base. They have that right to be recognised for their choice.
Even though I belonged to the group supporting the potion stacking fix, I like that we now have a clear statement from Beamdog and can move on.
In the end this is just a very tiny part of the games and that's it.
Looking forward to the 2.6 patch release!
I personally don't really care about potion stacking... fix it or leave it, both fine for me.
However from my point of view this is obviously an oversight and not an intended behaviour. With stacking potions of Heroism you can get absurd amounts of HP, combine that with stacking potions of regeneration and you have a character that is nearly unkillable. Or stack potions of Absorption to make any character only hittable with a crit (against blunt attacks). The list goes on...
In general the power level increase you get from stacking potions is really in the exploit territory. Now that does not automatically mean it should be fixed, but at least in my opinion we can clearly label that as an exploit.
Having played DND for about 40 years, everything from Monty Haul campaigns to low level magic ones. One thing is for sure... taking something away that was originally given only builds resentment, even when it probably makes sense game balance wise (A lot of us are like the seagulls in Finding Nemo... mine... mine!). I also think its safe to say a majority of us have played Baldur's Gate for many years and if it was truly broken then it would have been left in the ashes, buts its fun so we continue to play and mod it as "we" chose or don't choose. The stacking issue has never been a problem for me, heck I still die all the time even with them, but I'm not a power gamer...I like a challenge, but that is my choice. Heck we could nit-pic and "fix" every perceived failing in the game and there will still be issues. The bottom line to me is unless it is a game or quest breaking issue leave be, because like mentioned above Baldur's Gate is not a competition type game where game balance is required, but is more a personal choice. In the end its the journey that draws me in, so let mods or personal placed restrictions be your guide.
Side note: A plug for one of the mods I've used in the past is the Randomizer mod to change things up a bit.
Taking a quote from Stan Lee's soapbox.... Nuff said and Happy Adventuring.
On the flipside of this discussion, let us all be vigilant in reporting any bugs or issues that would either handicap or hinder a character's full potential. Just as we players should resist the temptation of powergaming, so should we also not allow our characters to become underpowered. Thank you for reading, and happy (healthy) gaming to all.
Edit: Removed text related to an issue that has been mentioned before in a thread dedicated to another game. Apologies. I was just trying to emphasize my point in avoiding complacency.
There are a lot of personal feelings from players about this issue which I really like because it shows our commitment to the game.
You're absolutely right. Whenever someone has a strong opinion it means that they care. So many games have fallen into oblivion it's easy to forget we're bickering about a game that's more than twenty years old. It's mind-blowing! The downside is that the atmosphere can get a little tense. You can't have one without the other, unfortunately.
If a developer takes it in scope to change the behaviour of a certain feature, then that means they are making statements on what their vision is for their product, in this case related to the game mechanics.
Do you really believe it's that simple? First, it's not exactly their product. Yes, they do have the rights - or some of the rights, I guess - but that doesn't mean they can do just anything. Baldur's Gate is a legacy, not some mass product released out of the blue that you can shape anyway you like because people don't care. It's more like art. I can cite numerous controversies of developers who didn't bother to respect the legacy of their game with immense backfiring in the end. Sometimes it's justified, other times it isn't. Sometimes players will embrace change, other times they won't. Either way, it's something one must consider.
And Beamdog has, in my opinion! You need only look at the steam page of the game to find out they mention the original Baldur’s Gate adventure. To get to that page, you can start right here, on this website, by clicking "games" then "Baldur's Gate" and what do you get as a selling point? The "classic" RPG, of course! That's two attempts to play on your nostalgia in a few clicks. How would you feel buying the game based on that to find out later it's nothing to do with the original game?
So the message is clear: it's the good old-fashioned Baldur's Gate with just a few tweaks to make it better, not to mention brand-new stories that won't conflict very much. And guess what? It's exactly how I feel when I play the Enhanced Edition and it's the reason why I find it's a real success. They found the proper balance between not adding anything new and twisting our beloved game into something we don't recognize.
Neither the player base nor the developers actually need to prove anything to anyone on whether the feature was a bug to begin with or not. Either way, both responses and implementations by beamdog should be considered valid by the player base.
I'd claim it's the exact opposite. Developers should never look down on the fanbase and act on a whim, nor should they be afraid to change anything. Every change has to be pondered, pros and cons must be examined. If possible, players should be consulted. It takes time and it's not easy so call it a moral obligation if you want, but I believe it's worth something here.
Besides, it's not like it's impossible. Beamdog just did it with that potion-stacking controversy! It's another proof that they're fit for the job and I wouldn't want anyone else doing this.
Let me also point out that the discussions you seem to care so much about wouldn't exist if Beamdog were reckless, forcing our hand to take just anything because they can. Or maybe there would be discussions, but with massive resentment and bitterness. More trolling than sharing. I've seen it elsewhere and I guarantee you don't want that.
You can change the frame rate from 30 to 60 in the baldur.LUA file in the game directory.
I know but there are no reason to keep things like they were in the past, specially if they harm gameplay making it annoying.
That's a matter of opinion, I suppose. For some people, a double frame rate means you have to use pause a lot more often to react to enemy actions or to issue commands in battle. Or to click on Gellana Mirrorshade
Two things come to my mind:
- Jaheira's romance - not a fix yet? This has been sadly broken ever since the year 2000
- When entering an area and immediately opening the map screen with M on PC, the map screen as immediately closes by itself
1. The romance is not broken itself. It's working as intended. If you have a problem with it, please upload a save.
2. I confirm this minor issue, thanks!
All of a sudden, there are 2 pages of comments, with more than 40 new comments in 2 days. Thanks for tons of feedback, moments like this show how passionate players of these games are and how important it is to test things out before releasing a regular patch.
I don't have an immediate response regarding the issue as all this discussion happened during the weekend but my personal take would be to reverse the change as we don't want to introduce huge changes to the game balance at this stage of the game development, and the majority of voices here are against this change.
Speaking of which, any word on the doubled hit point rolls on level-up?
Man, to see this list of fixes for a game two decades old is absolutely amazing. I have purchased these games at least twice (once on GoG and another time on the Beamdog store) and I continue to be amazed at the work you are putting into it, despite what I can only assume are fairly lackluster sales at this point. If you include the original releases, I've probably purchased BG and BG2 5 or 6 times by now.
Kudos to the dev team for getting after this -- it's commendable, despite what some here would say.
I love this game, the discussions we have here in the forums, and the mod community that surrounds it. Simply stunning.
1. The romance is not broken itself. It's working as intended. If you have a problem with it, please upload a save.
Ah, okay. I have to admit I haven't written down when was the last time I tested it, so if it has been fixed previously, good enough. I'll try it when 2.6 is released.
2. I confirm this minor issue, thanks!
Fixing this would be an absolute treat. I want the party to start moving to their destination immediately when I enter an area (open area map -> click the destination -> close map -> click to the screen so they start walking), so this delays it considerably.
One more thing I remember seeing online before: the text in TotSC werewolf island mission's narrator screen is not aligned correctly, it goes outside the text "box".
Was there any change to the lightning contraption from Irenicus's dungeon?
I am asking because i had just started a new play through in BG2EE (version 2.6.5.0) and i usually like to kill all mephits before activating the switch to turn off the lightning contraption. The old behavior of the lightning bolts shot by the contraption when it spawned new mephits was that the bolt would hit the wall and disappear but now it bounces back (and considering that it's a small room, it bounces back several time) and can hit your party several times and can kill you very fast.
If i would make a guess, i would say that there was a change in regards to what type of lightning bolt the contraption shoots: before, it was shooting the same kind of bolt which is used by the lightning mephits (that one does low damage and does not bounce) and after the change it shoots a level 3 spell lightning bolt (it has high damage, a save vs. spell and will bounce).
Thanks for the report. The trap spell is "SPWI017" and it should use the no bounce version (207) rather than the bounce version (206).
Before 2.6, those 2 projectile entries were hardcoded in BG2EE but not IWDEE which had fully externalized but dysfunctional LB projectiles. Both projectile entries were non-bouncy in BG1/2 while one of them was bouncy in IWDEE (206). Now the projectiles have been fixed and fully externalized in all games as was done in IWDEE before 2.6. Looks like we forgot to make sure spells using 206 use 207 in the BG games. Will be fixed in 2.7.
Until 2.7, no reload runs beware, as the bolt kills quickly and the first one will bonce in the same area with the contraption switch and it would be a real pity to lose a character right at the beginning of the game and even more so if it's a trilogy run.
Greetings.
Got myself fighter/druid multi (iwd 2.5)
Put on a splint mail
Still can cast a sunscorch
(and same with all shields)
Isn't this a bug?
Hi, no, it's the normal behaviour. in unmodded game, multiclass fighter/druid can wear any armor and shield.
Divine magic is not blocked by wearing armor.
Hi, no, it's the normal behaviour. in unmodded game, multiclass fighter/druid can wear any armor and shield.
Divine magic is not blocked by wearing armor.
Thought that in EE druids can't cast spells for some time, if they wear/put on something metal (armor or shield).
Hi, no, it's the normal behaviour. in unmodded game, multiclass fighter/druid can wear any armor and shield.
Divine magic is not blocked by wearing armor.
Thought that in EE druids can't cast spells for some time, if they wear/put on something metal (armor or shield).
Not in the Infiny Engine EE games. Maybe in NWN EE ?
Comments
A heavy-handed approach against bugs and inconsistencies works well 99% of the time but at some point an overstep occours. This was one of those times. It isn't our intention to make controversial changes to the game without a public discussion beforehand. The hp issue for Potions of Power will be left alone for now to be addressed at a later patch.
There are good arguments for nerfing potions (and protection scrolls) stacking as well as wand recharging in BG2. That will be up to third-party modders to create such tweaks for the time being.
That being said, bugs and exploits can still be patched more than 20 years later. Microsoft has recently fixed the building foundation exploit in AoE2:DE which was a go-to exploit for high-elo players in tournament competitions.
If the creators intended for something that wasn't implemented properly - if at all - then sure, it ought to be corrected. If what's true to the spirit of the original is not to your liking then please, mod the game.
That said, I've never seen anything that proves potion-stacking to be an oversight from the developers. I mean, ACTUAL proof. If anyone has information on that, please tell us. If not, why would you “fix” something that's neither missing nor broken?
To that, some people argue that they want a challenge. I call it out as misleading. What you're asking is not a challenge for yourself but a change of rules for everyone. If you don't want to drink one potion after the other, then just don't. You don't need Beamdog for that and if you can't follow the rules you set for yourself, that's your responsibility. Not ours.
In the end, it all comes down to one simple fact : in the current state of the game you're free to follow your self-imposed rules regarding potions while others can cheese the game (do they really, anyway?) if they feel like it. Everybody's happy! To frustrate others with a so-called fix for something you could do from the start is ludicrous imo. I absolutely cannot wrap my mind around it.
I could understand such plea IF what you were trying to accomplish was out of your will, then an actual fix to make your game harder would be necessary with good reasons. Since this is not the case, I fail to see the point entirely. I could stop right there since I believe it's enough to dismiss the idea, but let's dig in a little deeper.
Others contend this is game-breaking. I could argue it isn't since the fix is aimed at the potion type and not the effect provided, so it's often possible to reach the same benefits with a combination of items, potions and spells. I could also point out that warriors and thieves will mostly benefit from potion stacking which mitigates the power gap with spellcasters. So if you're REALLY concerned with balance, you should support potion stacking to put a damper on the cycle of mages going unchallenged. Heck, you might even encourage players to use such trick to ramp up their power! Therefore, it's not game-breaking.
But let's assume it is, just for the sake of argument. First, let me say that there are MANY overpowered items, spells and even classes in Baldur's Gate. Breaking balance is not an argument in itself otherwise we wouldn't have a large majority of players who agree that the Fighter/Mage is the strongest of all classes and almost none who wish otherwise. In itself, arcane spellcasting reaches godly heights to the point it outshines pretty much everything else. Almost everyone accepts this because PVP was never core to Baldur's Gate so we don't need to balance everything out. This applies to items as well. Going crazy-powerful is FINE. It's part of the game's identity. You're not playing some unremarkable and unexceptional lad, are you?
So it's not enough to find something overpowered, it must feel undeserved. So how is being able to quaff identical potions such an outrage? Potions are not heaven-sent, they must be collected and managed. You might stack, sure, but you're not going to stack very long. So this is hardly a free ride and potion stacking is actually very niche. Most people will never use it and the people who WILL use it will do so to scribe scrolls without failure, most of the time. Does that sound horrendous? Finally, reaching power peaks for short periods of time is nowhere near unfamilar in Baldur's Gate so I fail to see what the fuss is about, no matter how you want to look at it.
I usually try to be moderate but this? It's just a bad idea to me and I think it's wise to revoke the “fix”... unless someone can bring hard evidence that it shouldn't work that way. Not in D&D, but in Baldur's Gate. These are two different entities, mind you.
I would like to end my contribution to the discussions with some notes on product development that are considered in my own line of work.
If a developer takes it in scope to change the behaviour of a certain feature, then that means they are making statements on what their vision is for their product, in this case related to the game mechanics.
Neither the player base nor the developers actually need to prove anything to anyone on whether the feature was a bug to begin with or not.
The full impact of the change can be deemed fine as is, but if too impactful it will often be addressed by a secondary feature change that will solve imbalances.
It could have been a strong statement of beamdog had they said, no, this is what we think our product (the game) should do and we change it accordingly (scope definition). These types of designs or calls are not rare. They define the boundaries to the user base.
However, beamdog shows that they took careful deliberation based on the feedback from the player base and made the decision to revert it because it is the least impactful on the player base. That is a different strength altogether (user engagement), and truthfully this is more often seen in a sustaining product than the first approach.
Either way, both responses and implementations by beamdog should be considered valid by the player base. They have that right to be recognised for their choice.
In the end this is just a very tiny part of the games and that's it.
Looking forward to the 2.6 patch release!
However from my point of view this is obviously an oversight and not an intended behaviour. With stacking potions of Heroism you can get absurd amounts of HP, combine that with stacking potions of regeneration and you have a character that is nearly unkillable. Or stack potions of Absorption to make any character only hittable with a crit (against blunt attacks). The list goes on...
In general the power level increase you get from stacking potions is really in the exploit territory. Now that does not automatically mean it should be fixed, but at least in my opinion we can clearly label that as an exploit.
Side note: A plug for one of the mods I've used in the past is the Randomizer mod to change things up a bit.
Taking a quote from Stan Lee's soapbox.... Nuff said and Happy Adventuring.
Edit: Removed text related to an issue that has been mentioned before in a thread dedicated to another game. Apologies. I was just trying to emphasize my point in avoiding complacency.
You're absolutely right. Whenever someone has a strong opinion it means that they care. So many games have fallen into oblivion it's easy to forget we're bickering about a game that's more than twenty years old. It's mind-blowing! The downside is that the atmosphere can get a little tense. You can't have one without the other, unfortunately.
Do you really believe it's that simple? First, it's not exactly their product. Yes, they do have the rights - or some of the rights, I guess - but that doesn't mean they can do just anything. Baldur's Gate is a legacy, not some mass product released out of the blue that you can shape anyway you like because people don't care. It's more like art. I can cite numerous controversies of developers who didn't bother to respect the legacy of their game with immense backfiring in the end. Sometimes it's justified, other times it isn't. Sometimes players will embrace change, other times they won't. Either way, it's something one must consider.
And Beamdog has, in my opinion! You need only look at the steam page of the game to find out they mention the original Baldur’s Gate adventure. To get to that page, you can start right here, on this website, by clicking "games" then "Baldur's Gate" and what do you get as a selling point? The "classic" RPG, of course! That's two attempts to play on your nostalgia in a few clicks. How would you feel buying the game based on that to find out later it's nothing to do with the original game?
So the message is clear: it's the good old-fashioned Baldur's Gate with just a few tweaks to make it better, not to mention brand-new stories that won't conflict very much. And guess what? It's exactly how I feel when I play the Enhanced Edition and it's the reason why I find it's a real success. They found the proper balance between not adding anything new and twisting our beloved game into something we don't recognize.
I'd claim it's the exact opposite. Developers should never look down on the fanbase and act on a whim, nor should they be afraid to change anything. Every change has to be pondered, pros and cons must be examined. If possible, players should be consulted. It takes time and it's not easy so call it a moral obligation if you want, but I believe it's worth something here.
Besides, it's not like it's impossible. Beamdog just did it with that potion-stacking controversy! It's another proof that they're fit for the job and I wouldn't want anyone else doing this.
Let me also point out that the discussions you seem to care so much about wouldn't exist if Beamdog were reckless, forcing our hand to take just anything because they can. Or maybe there would be discussions, but with massive resentment and bitterness. More trolling than sharing. I've seen it elsewhere and I guarantee you don't want that.
You can change the frame rate from 30 to 60 in the baldur.LUA file in the game directory.
I know but there are no reason to keep things like they were in the past, specially if they harm gameplay making it annoying.
That's a matter of opinion, I suppose. For some people, a double frame rate means you have to use pause a lot more often to react to enemy actions or to issue commands in battle. Or to click on Gellana Mirrorshade
- Jaheira's romance - not a fix yet? This has been sadly broken ever since the year 2000
- When entering an area and immediately opening the map screen with M on PC, the map screen as immediately closes by itself
2. I confirm this minor issue, thanks!
Speaking of which, any word on the doubled hit point rolls on level-up?
Kudos to the dev team for getting after this -- it's commendable, despite what some here would say.
I love this game, the discussions we have here in the forums, and the mod community that surrounds it. Simply stunning.
Looking forward to 2.7!!!
Fixing this would be an absolute treat. I want the party to start moving to their destination immediately when I enter an area (open area map -> click the destination -> close map -> click to the screen so they start walking), so this delays it considerably.
I am asking because i had just started a new play through in BG2EE (version 2.6.5.0) and i usually like to kill all mephits before activating the switch to turn off the lightning contraption. The old behavior of the lightning bolts shot by the contraption when it spawned new mephits was that the bolt would hit the wall and disappear but now it bounces back (and considering that it's a small room, it bounces back several time) and can hit your party several times and can kill you very fast.
If i would make a guess, i would say that there was a change in regards to what type of lightning bolt the contraption shoots: before, it was shooting the same kind of bolt which is used by the lightning mephits (that one does low damage and does not bounce) and after the change it shoots a level 3 spell lightning bolt (it has high damage, a save vs. spell and will bounce).
Before 2.6, those 2 projectile entries were hardcoded in BG2EE but not IWDEE which had fully externalized but dysfunctional LB projectiles. Both projectile entries were non-bouncy in BG1/2 while one of them was bouncy in IWDEE (206). Now the projectiles have been fixed and fully externalized in all games as was done in IWDEE before 2.6. Looks like we forgot to make sure spells using 206 use 207 in the BG games. Will be fixed in 2.7.
Until 2.7, no reload runs beware, as the bolt kills quickly and the first one will bonce in the same area with the contraption switch and it would be a real pity to lose a character right at the beginning of the game and even more so if it's a trilogy run.
Got myself fighter/druid multi (iwd 2.5)
Put on a splint mail
Still can cast a sunscorch
(and same with all shields)
Isn't this a bug?
Divine magic is not blocked by wearing armor.
Thought that in EE druids can't cast spells for some time, if they wear/put on something metal (armor or shield).