Slings get both str and dex bonus

szb

Not only do slings get both a dex and str bonus to tacho, they also get the str bonus to damage.
I this a new feature or was this in the original?
Also, I checked throwing daggers and axes but those don't get the strenght bonus, so it seems only slings do. Shouldn't daggers and axes also get this bonus if slings do?

Dee

Slings should only be getting Dexterity to THAC0, and no bonus to damage. Can someone else confirm this?

Balquo

Slings get str bonus in BG1 - they do not in BG2.

szb

Made a new test char and equpped him with a normal sling bougth from Wintrop.
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/6826/sling.png
Theres also a +2 sling bonus to damage that I don't understand. Where does that come from?
EDT: Realized it comes from weapon spec...still description could be more clear

Makes me wish I could make a halfling archer focusing on slings :-)

wissenschaft

Hafling warrior focusing on slings still isn't a bad idea.

colonel_burger

Monty starts with 2 points in sling proficiency. Winner!

Merengue

I'm a bit confused about this.
According to the character pages:
17 strength Halfling Swashbuckler is getting -1 from strength
18/67 strength Dwarven Fighter/Cleric is getting -0 from strength
19 strength Orc Cleric is getting -3 from strength

However, the actual THAC0 of the Dwarf is 15, which I'm not sure makes sense unless I'm actually getting the -2 bonus from Strength in spite of the stated 0.

Space_hamster

I wouldn't want to meet that halfling in a dark alley. ;0

AADA7A

Many things don't make sense from the THAC0 calculations so far in my game!

Bercon

Yeah the displayed THAC0 numbers are completely fucked up.

Abel

Actual numbers should tell more. What kind of damage do you get in combat? Post some log.
Also, to check THAC0 attack a creature of which you know AC and check the results by displaying to hit rolls.

Abel

So I tested this. I don't know about THAC0 but there are some serious bugs right now with damage.
Actually, Slings get Strength bonus damage. But Throwing Axes that I tested along don't get this bonus. So basically, the effects of Strength on damage are completely inverted.

Bigity

Thrown weapons should get STR bonus to damage, but DEX bonus to hit.

But I'm reading that the adjusted to-hit/dmg/ac type numbers in the icon display are not showing correctly.

Not sure about actual rolls and logs from combat.

PugPug

Aosaw said:

Slings should only be getting Dexterity to THAC0, and no bonus to damage. Can someone else confirm this?

Slings are getting the Dex bonus to THAC0 and the Str bonus to damage, both in the inventory screen and in practice. I was able to deal 7 damage in a single noncritical hit with a character with 18 strength. 1d4+1 + 2 = 7.

But after reading several threads on the topic, I gather that this might be intended behavior.

I support it, as the sling is a low-damage weapon with only one attack per round. All other ranged weapons have more damage, more attacks or both.

It's true it's low-hanging fruit, proficiency-wise, but the classes that get stuck with it do not traditionally invest in strength, and this gives them a reason to try something different or at least not use it as a dump stat.

Oxford_Guy

There's a number of existing threads about this e.g.
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/201971#Comment_201971

At present slings (or it may actually be their bullets) are the *only* ranged weapon to get the strength damage bonus. The manual says throwing axes and daggers do, but either the manual is wrong (reported here: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/6819/errors-and-inconsistencies-in-the-current-manual/p1 ) or the game is bugged.

I'm pretty sure it's intended that darts don't get the strength damage bonus, as with 3 APR that would be quite OP and darts are very light (unlike daggers and axes), so arguably wouldn't be so affected by strength.

Currently Montaron rocks with a sling - 2 proficiency pips, strength damage modifier, halfling +1 THAC0 sling bonus :-)

Rafael

i think slings should not add str to damage...
since in BG2 there is a specific magic sling that allows to add str to damage
if every sling does that it will just become a ordinary item

Oxford_Guy

Rafael said:

i think slings should not add str to damage...
since in BG2 there is a specific magic sling that allows to add str to damage
if every sling does that it will just become a ordinary item

I'm inclined to agree, though it's true in the original BG1 slings did add strength damage.

I do *strongly* think throwing axes and daggers (but not darts) should add strength damage, they're very underpowered otherwise and it makes sense

Rafael

Yea, i agree
i think all projectile weapons should not add str (bows,slings,xbows)
while throw weapons should (axes,daggers)...just as it is in 3.5
but i am not sure how it worked back to AD&D or BG1

ZanathKariashi

You're not thinking of the right kind of darts. Darts used in combat are miniature pilum-looking things with a heavy weight just behind the point. Because their design makes them always hit point first, it requires no special aiming/throwing, and thus you can throw them quickly. Knives and axes have to be thrown more carefully to ensure the business end hit's properly.

The actual darts are just as heavy, or more so depending on design, then throwing knives. So yes, they're just as due a str bonus as a throwing knife is.

Tip-Weight-Grip-Tassel.
<0--~

And in PnP every ranged weapon except X-Bows benefit from str.

X-Bows = No Str, Dex Hit, +enhancement hit/damage + bonus damage + Ammo

Thrown (Darts, Knives, Axes) = Str damage, dex hit, +enhancement hit/damage

Bows = Str damage (short/long up to +2 only, composite any), dex hit, +enhancement hit + Ammo

Slings = str damage, dex hit, enhancement hit, + ammo

Rafael

ZanathKariashi said:

You're not thinking of the right kind of darts. Darts used in combat are miniature pilum-looking things with a heavy weight just behind the point. Because their design makes them always hit point first, it requires no special aiming/throwing, and thus you can throw them quickly. Knives and axes have to be thrown more carefully to ensure the business end hit's properly.

The actual darts are just as heavy, or more so depending on design, then throwing knives. So yes, they're just as due a str bonus as a throwing knife is.

Tip-Weight-Grip-Tassel.
<0--~

And in PnP every ranged weapon except X-Bows benefit from str.

X-Bows = No Str, Dex Hit, +enhancement hit/damage + bonus damage + Ammo

Thrown (Darts, Knives, Axes) = Str damage, dex hit, +enhancement hit/damage

Bows = Str damage (short/long up to +2 only, composite any), dex hit, +enhancement hit + Ammo

Slings = str damage, dex hit, enhancement hit, + ammo</p>

Was that way in BG2?
why then would there be a specific magic sling that allows add str to damage?
(sling of seeking +2)

Pantalion

Dexterity *and* Strength bonus to THAC0? Yeah, that's gotta be a bug.

Looks like Halflings are out of luck, Elven Slingers are king.

Oxford_Guy

ZanathKariashi said:

You're not thinking of the right kind of darts. Darts used in combat are miniature pilum-looking things with a heavy weight just behind the point. Because their design makes them always hit point first, it requires no special aiming/throwing, and thus you can throw them quickly. Knives and axes have to be thrown more carefully to ensure the business end hit's properly.

The actual darts are just as heavy, or more so depending on design, then throwing knives. So yes, they're just as due a str bonus as a throwing knife is.

Although darts in BGEE weigh nothing, whereas throwing daggers and axes are very heavy, if trying to carry lots. I realise this is not necessarily an indication of the *actual* type of dart used, but is another reason why darts are *already* better than throwing daggers and axes, in addition to the high rate of fire - they really don't need any further boost

Oxford_Guy

Rafael said:

ZanathKariashi said:

You're not thinking of the right kind of darts. Darts used in combat are miniature pilum-looking things with a heavy weight just behind the point. Because their design makes them always hit point first, it requires no special aiming/throwing, and thus you can throw them quickly. Knives and axes have to be thrown more carefully to ensure the business end hit's properly.

The actual darts are just as heavy, or more so depending on design, then throwing knives. So yes, they're just as due a str bonus as a throwing knife is.

Tip-Weight-Grip-Tassel.
<0--~

And in PnP every ranged weapon except X-Bows benefit from str.

X-Bows = No Str, Dex Hit, +enhancement hit/damage + bonus damage + Ammo

Thrown (Darts, Knives, Axes) = Str damage, dex hit, +enhancement hit/damage

Bows = Str damage (short/long up to +2 only, composite any), dex hit, +enhancement hit + Ammo

Slings = str damage, dex hit, enhancement hit, + ammo</p>

Was that way in BG2?
why then would there be a specific magic sling that allows add str to damage?
(sling of seeking +2)

There are many things about ranged weapons that are different in BG2 e.g. magic bows, arrows and bolts don't add their +x damage in BG2, though crossbows, slings and bullets do. Bizarre, but true.

Oxford_Guy

Pantalion said:

Dexterity *and* Strength bonus to THAC0? Yeah, that's gotta be a bug.

Looks like Halflings are out of luck, Elven Slingers are king.

I presume you mean because halflings can't have 18 starting strength, but elves can, and both can have 19 Dex? I'm pretty sure, however, that for slings only the Dex bonus is actually added to THAC0, but the Strength bonus is added to damage.

Halflings get an innate +1 THAC0 with slings (elves get this for bows and all swords).

Ossory

If you think about it logically, all ranged weapons should add Str damage. For instance to string a bow or crossbow, it takes actual strength. The more you string them, the deeper (into flesh) the arrow/bolt will go, causing more damage. Same principle should apply for any ranged weapon. You shoot/hurl stuff "more strongly", the stronger you are, no?

Pantalion

Oxford_Guy said:

Pantalion said:

Dexterity *and* Strength bonus to THAC0? Yeah, that's gotta be a bug.

Looks like Halflings are out of luck, Elven Slingers are king.

I presume you mean because halflings can't have 18 starting strength, but elves can, and both can have 19 Dex? I'm pretty sure, however, that for slings only the Dex bonus is actually added to THAC0, but the Strength bonus is added to damage.

Halflings get an innate +1 THAC0 with slings (elves get this for bows and all swords).

Correct, if you read the original post, @szb has stated that slings are getting Str to THAC0, not just damage. If that's true, then an 18/51 Strength elf has the same THAC0 as a Halflng and does more damage per hit. Give 'em a tome and you're looking at a clear case of Elven superiority.

bigdogchris

@Pantalion

Slings do not get a STR bonus to THAC0. The problem is the way the new THAC0 screen is (not) working.

I do think there are a couple issues which I will be bugging, but here are my findings:

Bullet to hit bonus is being displayed in a manner which suggest it may be because of STR bonus rather than DEX bonus, but also there is redundant halfling bonus data to compound the confusion.

1. I just made a human fighter with 17 STR and 17 DEX with 1 point proficiency in Sling (for no penalties). They receive the -2 DEX bonus to THAC0 and +1 STR bonus to DMG on the bullet. Everything is calculated correctly but Bullet to hit bonus may be confused as you are gaining a STR bonus to hit.

Img 1.


2. I made a halfling fighter with no DEX or STR bonuses with 1 point proficiency in Sling. The THAC0 window is confusing as it shows to hit as -1 but also the halfling -1 bonus. The -1 to hit and -1 halfling data is redundant and can be confusing making it appear you should have a -2 bonus (19 THAC0 is correct).

Img 2.


3. I made a halfling fighter with +2 DEX bonus to THAC0 and +1 STR bonus to damage with 1 point proficiency in Sling. Again there is an issue with how THAC0 is displayed with redundant data. To hit is -3 (-2 DEX -1 halfling) which is right, but it shows -1 halfling again, which is redundant. This makes it look like you should have 16 THAC0 if you add them up. 17 THAC0 is correct.

Img 3.


4. This is what the window could look like to fix both issues.

Img 4.


THAC0 and DMG are being calculated correctly it's just not displayed correctly in the new window.

*edit* I just bugged this.

Fredjo

Ossory said:

If you think about it logically, all ranged weapons should add Str damage. For instance to string a bow or crossbow, it takes actual strength. The more you string them, the deeper (into flesh) the arrow/bolt will go, causing more damage. Same principle should apply for any ranged weapon. You shoot/hurl stuff "more strongly", the stronger you are, no?

Concerning crossbows, you either draw it or not, there's no middle point.

Concerning bows: Each bow has a certain poundage that is determined by the flexibility of the construction, if you overdraw a bow, it can either snap and poke your eye out or bend and becomes unusable, thus your exceptional 18+ strenght would be of no use unless yuu have like 200lbs draw strenght bow, which is ridiculous even for dinosarus hunting. I'd say add STR modifier bonus with STR>14 at max.

Concerning thrown knives: If I take real throwing knives as an example of a similiar weapon to the BG knives, there are no heavy knives for throwing, all of them have to be perfectly weighted and aerodynamic but you don't throw shorts swords around and the skill of throwing knives is much more about muscle memory and fingers dexterity than about your STR.

Throwing axes: These might get a boost from STR as vikings and gauls are said to throw axes into the enemy hordes before using sword for melee and the STR would be certainly useful to some extend.

ZanathKariashi

Short/Long bows are supposed to allow up to plain 18 (+2 damage) for str...only composites can go higher because they're re-enforced and can handled greater pull strength.

You don't even get a str bonus till 16 (+1).

Unlike a bow, a crossbow string is simply cranked for heavy or manually pulled to a notch for light. No matter how strong you are, it's not going to effect the output because a X-Bow has a preset amount of force. It might reasonably allow you to reload it faster if you were quite a bit stronger then the minimum, but it's not going to change the damage output at all.

Oxford_Guy

Fredjo said:

Ossory said:

If you think about it logically, all ranged weapons should add Str damage. For instance to string a bow or crossbow, it takes actual strength. The more you string them, the deeper (into flesh) the arrow/bolt will go, causing more damage. Same principle should apply for any ranged weapon. You shoot/hurl stuff "more strongly", the stronger you are, no?

Concerning crossbows, you either draw it or not, there's no middle point.

Agreed, and so no strength bonus damage should apply for crossbows, just a strength requirement to draw them - though much can be said for bows, see below:

Fredjo said:

Concerning bows: Each bow has a certain poundage that is determined by the flexibility of the construction, if you overdraw a bow, it can either snap and poke your eye out or bend and becomes unusable, thus your exceptional 18+ strenght would be of no use unless yuu have like 200lbs draw strenght bow, which is ridiculous even for dinosarus hunting. I'd say add STR modifier bonus with STR>14 at max.

BTW in real life, I actually do shoot a bow, it's a composite bow with 32lb draw weight (if that doesn't sound like a lot to you, it is when you try to pull it!). The force behind an arrow is based on a number of things, the strength of the limbs of the bow itself (even the strongest man in the world would not shoot an arrow much harder than me with a bow with limbs with a 32lb draw weight), how far the string is drawn back (which is not infinite, there is in fact a "perfect" distance beyond which power and accuracy would decrease, if you can draw the string back to it's optimum point, being any stronger won't help) and the skill of the archer in performing the whole action smoothly, also the weight and design of the arrow.

So, whilst there *is* a relation between the strength of someone, and how hard a bow hits, alot of this is to do with "are you strong enough to use this bow in the first place" - I could not, for example, properly use even a 50-60Ib olympic composite bow, let alone a Hundred Years War era 120Ib War Bow. In fact I think bows are modelled fine as they are - you have to have a certain minimum strength to use a short bow, long bow and composite bow effectively, and they all progressively hit harder.

Also - from a game balance point of view - bows are already *extremely* powerful weapons in BG1/BGEE (less so in BG2 where they nerfed the magic +x damage bows and arrows do and limited access to +3 and higher bow ammo) and really, really do not need to be made any more powerful. Please.

Fredjo said:

Concerning thrown knives: If I take real throwing knives as an example of a similiar weapon to the BG knives, there are no heavy knives for throwing, all of them have to be perfectly weighted and aerodynamic but you don't throw shorts swords around and the skill of throwing knives is much more about muscle memory and fingers dexterity than about your STR.

Yes, I'm less convinced the strength damage bonus should apply to throwing knives, they're not great big bowie knives, and are already quite powerful with 2 APR. The main problem with them in BGEE is actually the lack of magic returning ones

Fredjo said:

Throwing axes: These might get a boost from STR as vikings and gauls are said to throw axes into the enemy hordes before using sword for melee and the STR would be certainly useful to some extend.

Throwing axes are think are perhaps the most justified to get the strength bonus, they're heavy to carry (which can be problematic), but that indictaes they're pretty hefty weapons that a strong warrior could put some heft into. Also, with only 1 APR, they look underpowered in the game compared to other ranged weapon options.

EDIT: corrected some typos, but not content

valky

Oxford_Guy said:

Yes, I'm less convinced the strength damage bonus should apply to throwing knives, they're not great big bowie knives, and are already quite powerful with 2 APR. The main problem with them in BGEE is actually the lack of magic returning ones

Despite the bow/xbow discussion, which I think is fine, IMO the reflected +dam on several weapons, specially in BG2 just reflects the 'composite' or 'mighty' behavior. And you need a specific strength anyway to use them....

The returning throwing dagger is another mystery in BG2, usually the magical ones
Cause they get the same 2 APR if switched to melee, which you can or might abuse....and there is +2, which you can get really early on. (or use a fixpack to switch them to ranged only)
And with the additional ApR, they outshine even short-swords