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Feeblemind Not Working?

VanDerBergVanDerBerg Member Posts: 212
So, I am fighting the final battle in De'Arnise keep in BG2 (SCS on Hardcore) with solo Mage/Thief. I am able to more or less easily take out everything (Umber Hulk, all the trolls and Yuan Ti mages) with Invisibility, Protection from Acid and Death Fog. Repeating this twice kills everyone eventually apart from TorGal. What I planned to do then was to Feeblemind TorGal. I can cast Lower Resistance and Greater Malision on him, then Feeblemind lands easily on him (there is no text about any resistance or him making a saving throw), his colour changes briefly to yellow (as when someone is hit by that spells), but then he just proceeds as if nothing happened and slaughters me easily. Isn't Feeblemind supposed to disable the enemy permanently? Is he somehow immune to this and shouldn't some message appear if he is?

Similar thing happens quite often with Glitterdust for me - it lands, creatures briefly change colour, but then immediately proceed as if nothing happened.

Comments

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,302
    Trolls are still immune to a broad range of mind-affecting effects, including Feeblemind, a legacy from when their deaths relied on AI scripted triggers.
    The color flash/visual only indicates that the spell impacted, and that neither saving throw or magic resistance blocked it. Passive immunity often has no direct indication that the target was immune.

    StummvonBordwehrAerakarJuliusBorisov
  • VanDerBergVanDerBerg Member Posts: 212
    Crumbs, I thought 'Unaffected by XX' is a message you get when something is immune to the spell. Oh well. Presumably he is also immune to Hold Monster.

  • VanDerBergVanDerBerg Member Posts: 212
    Though it is still confusing to get a Saving Throw message when he saves. Why bothering with a saving throw when he is immune to the spell anyway...

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,302
    He's not immune to the color flash, which is what he ends up saving against.

    StummvonBordwehrJuliusBorisov
  • VanDerBergVanDerBerg Member Posts: 212
    That will teach him a lesson.

  • XDarkStrikerXXDarkStrikerX Member Posts: 77
    As mentionned, color flash usually mean immunity which also happens for immunity to paralyzation, so nothing will appear on the feedback. You only see unaffected for an immunity from a damage type as far as i know but there might be exceptions. The only way to be sure that feeblemind worked is by seeing a yellow sphere on to of the head of the foe and it will display Target : Feebleminded on feedback, like for other debilitating effects like stunned, webbed and blinded.

    Also be aware that some powerful enemies might have spell protections with SCS so make sure to use a spell protection dispeller first and breach as chaotic command will protect against it.

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,775
    SCS must be using the old school scripts when it comes to trolls and their "unconscious" phase

    back in the vanilla days it was impossible to one hit trolls except for cromfayer and they were immune to hold/ sleep and stun spells and effects because it could mess up their "unconscious" script

    then in the EEs beamdog fixed that so now they don't have those silly immunities because beamdog did a much better scripting job on the "unconscious" scripts for trolls

    for example, if i recall correctly, in the vanilla days, an ice troll has 4 HP but if you were to cast a fireball on it, you could deal 20 damage, and then it would go into its unconscious phase and you would have to fire or acid damage it again

    but in the EEs now luckily if you just deal enough fire or acid damage in one go, they just die, so you don't have to fireball 'em twice, which is much better

  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 1,882
    SCS plays with troll regeneration effects, but I wouldn't call it entirely old school.

    (1) Their base state can't go down to damage in one shot; if enough damage is dealt, even if that's fire or acid, they go unconscious.
    (2) Once a troll goes unconscious, only fire or acid can deal damage to it. But it only has 1 HP, so it dies immediately if this happens.
    (3) Hitting a conscious troll with fire or acid disables this protection for a time, so damage of any type can finish them off.
    (4) Fire and acid damage effects deal an additional separate 1 damage to trolls, so that (for example) a fireball can kill ice trolls in one hit.

    Points (1) and (2) are present in the standard game, as of v2.5. SCS adds points (3) and (4).

    The immunity to effects like fear, confusion, and feeblemind is present in both vanilla and SCS.

    The update the EE made is that unconscious trolls are still the same creature. In the original, going unconscious replaced trolls with an alternate version with different properties; in the EE, a spell effect destroys their min-HP and regeneration item and changes their resistances (If they get up, the items are replaced and the resistance changes expire).
    Those alternate unconscious versions of trolls are still present in the game files, but are unused.

    jsavingGrond0AerakarJuliusBorisov
  • VanDerBergVanDerBerg Member Posts: 212
    edited June 26
    Wait, I still don't understand this precisely. Does a troll always go to unconscious phase when they are reduced to 1 HP, or this necessary happens only when it is at full health? I.e. is it possible to finish a troll who is low on HP without him entering the unconscious phase? Because I am pretty sure I have killed some conscious trolls with low HP with one fireball without them entering the unconscious phase...

    There also seems to be some issue (or feature) with some trolls (including TorGal) and invisibility. When I go invisible, many of them still follow me around closely, but they don't attack. So they can half-see through invisibility. I didn't notice this with other creatures or maybe I just didn't pay attention. So, it is impossible, for example, to backstab them, go invisible, go out of their line of sight and set traps. I didn't try this with other enemies, so this may be general feature with invisibility.

    Luckily, this is actually useful for Death Fog + Invisibility tactics in that fight, because it ensures that trolls stay in the spell's AoE area because I can just sit in the center of it and they will follow me there (but not attack). Which is why dealing with all of them apart from TorGal is easy.

  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 1,882
    The troll goes unconscious when you bring them down to 1 HP. While unconscious, they remain at 1 HP. If they get up, they're back up to full health.

    I've definitely killed plenty of trolls in SCS without them going unconscious; fire damage disables their protection, and any sort of damage can finish them off after that. A single overkill fire hit can do this as well, since it hits again with that extra one damage. That's faster than the transition to unconsciousness, so they go straight from healthy to dead.

    TorGal ... sees through invisibility. The real question isn't how he follows you, it's why he doesn't attack you.

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