Core rules, no reloads, minimal metagaming - how far can you get?

Permidion_Stark

There was a recent thread where the OP argued that Baldur's Gate is badly designed https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/82565/bad-game-design/p1 This got me to wondering how far I could get playing on core rules and trying as hard as possible not to metagame. To do this I am going to attempt to do every encounter in what seems to be a logical order and I will also aim to complete one whole map at a time. To be honest I think this means that I am unlikely to get past Beregost because if Karlat doesn't kill me then I am pretty sure Silke will and if she doesn't then I think we can rely on Landrin's spiders to do the job.

But there is only one way to find out . . .

To make the job a little easier I have rolled myself a Cavalier, which for me wins the 'Character Class Most Likely to Survive in BG1' award. I also kept rolling until I could get 18 in everything that matters. This is her on leaving Candlekeep. She has got 345 XP, which I think is the most it is possible to get if you are being lawful and good. She's got two pips in bastard swords, one pip in two-handed weapon style (I am using a tweak that allows bastard swords to be used two-handed) and one pip in axes so she can use throwing axes (which of course being a Cavalier she shouldn't be able to do).


This is Imoen when the two of them meet. I have used the Avatar Morphing Tweak to change her body type to cleric because I think she looks better without a hood. I have also made her clothing a more restful shade of pink. https://www.gibberlings3.net/subpages/tweaks/cosmetic/



So they are now heading off to pick up Gorion's stuff - and possibly get killed by a wolf on the way.

Permidion_Stark

On the way to the Friendly Arm Inn, Hope and Imoen met up with Xzar and Montaron and, despite having some misgivings about the pair, they decided to take them up on their offer of aid. This proved to be a wise decision because they proved their worth when an assassin attacked the party on the very threshold of the Inn.

Permidion_Stark

The party has now been joined by Khalid and Jaheira and have re-equipped themselves. Jaheira decided to sell her Potion of Invisibility (I have never really understood why she has got it in the first place) to buy some shiny new splint mail.

Permidion_Stark

The party has completed their first quest. They have returned Joia's Flamedance Ring, this has not only netted them 400 XP but, possibly more importantly has provided Jaheira and Montaron with helmets, courtesy of dead Hobgoblins. They are now on the road to Beregost. I neglected to go upstairs and speak to Unshey so the party doesn't know about the Ogre with a belt fetish but I figure they would explore the map anyway.

I forgot to mention at the start that I am going to ignore the Easter Eggs so they won't find the Ring of Princes hidden in the rock (even though I am convinced I found that by chance on my first playthrough).


The party took on the Ogre and despite Jaheira's Entangle spell failing to impede it the battle was going reasonably well until a wolf appeared behind us and bit Imoen taking her down to 1HP. Fortunately, Jaheira was able to heal her and the rest of the party were able to take care of the Ogre and the wolf.


They were attacked by a couple of bandits on the road and quite a few Xvarts off it but they managed to kill them all pretty easily. However, I am using the BG1 NPC Project so they ran into an extra encounter featuring a bandit leader and three bandits. This proved too hot for the party and though they managed to kill the bandits the leader chased them all the way to Beregost, where they arrived somewhat the worse for wear.




I chose randomly which hostelry they would stay at and Feldespost's won out. With the NPC Project installed it is a bad idea going to this inn with Montaron in your party so I left him outside while Hope went in to deal with Marl. This netted the party enough experience for Jaheira to gain levels as both a druid and a fighter.

Permidion_Stark

Once the party had rested I decided it was time to see if they could get themselves killed. Generally, if I was metagaming, I would leave these encounters until I was third or fourth level, but here I am attempting to play as if I have no idea what will happen so the party is strolling into situations I would normally try to avoid. They started by going to the Red Sheaf where they were accosted by a dwarf named Karlat:

Karlat proved to be a bit of a pushover:

They then met a chap called Garrick and agreed to help him protect his mistress, the seductive Silke Rosena:

Silke didn't put up much of a fight:

At this point Garrick asked to join the party and I decided to take him because Xzar and Montaron seem a bit evil for my paladin's tastes. I have a feeling that this may be a decision I will regret because I will now have one fewer person chucking missiles into melees and without Xzar I have no sure way of interrupting enemy spellcasters.

Permidion_Stark

Next stop Landrin's house. Even with a Cavalier who is immune to poison I generally put this encounter off until I have had a chance to buy antidotes for the rest of the party because there is always the danger of someone else getting bitten by the spiders. I decided the best tactic was for my Cavalier to charge into the midst of the arachnid horde in the hope that they would all target her.

It worked like a charm.



So that's the bad stuff in Beregost dealt with and so far the only time the party has been in danger was when they walked into the bandit ambush added by the BG1 NPC mod.

Still, it is early days and I happen to know that in the Nashkel Inn a rather unladylike young lady will be waiting for me . . .

Permidion_Stark

Since I am aiming to complete one area at a time as far as is possible I now sent Imoen on a thieving spree through Beregost where she attempted to open every lock and steal everything that wasn't stuck down. I am never quite sure how to roleplay Imoen when it comes to stealing stuff. Would she really break into people's houses? Probably not. Then again how can she learn to be a lock picker if she doesn't go round picking locks?


While she was going from house to house Imoen also bumped into a couple of people worried about their loved ones.



The party now has a few quests to choose from:

Bjornin the paladin wants them to beat up some half-ogres (but he doesn't exactly give good directions as to where they can be found.

A grumpy dwarf called Gurke has had his cloak stolen by tasloi in Cloakwood (but the party has no idea where Cloakwood is - or what a tasloi is for that matter)

Mirianne's husband is late returning from Amn, to the south.

Mr Colquetle is worried about his family who are late on the road (but he doesn't say which road).

Of all of these the easiest to do sounds like finding Perdue's sword because he has told the party where it is to be found:


So off to High Hedge we go!

Permidion_Stark

While wandering through High Hedge the party met an elf who sounded like Clint Eastwood, so naturally they let him join the party.

With their new-found friend increasing the density of their missile volleys the party was soon able to defeat the gnolls and return Perdue's sword, which in turn meant that Garrick had enough experience to level up. This means he can now cast first level mage spells.

Unfortunately he doesn't know any.

Time to go back to High Hedge.

Permidion_Stark

We returned to High Hedge and acquired some spells for Garrick. This proved to be a costly affair because he kept failing to scribe them but after spending over 500GP he did manage to learn Larloch's Minor Drain and Chromatic Orb. We had now completed all the quests we could complete in Beregost and so started south to Nashkel where we ran into a couple of Ogrillons. Killing them meant that Hope, my Cavalier, was able to level up. Shortly afterwards Khalid leveled up too, meaning that the whole party is now Level 2.

We then proceeded to clear the remainder of the maps of the Trade Way North and the Trade Way South. We ran into lots of groups of bandits (appearing four at a time) and a number of Hobgoblin Elites, which I don't remember seeing on these maps before. But then to be honest I don't normally bother to explore these areas properly.

Everything was going well until we ran into a bandit ambush as we headed into Nashkel.

We dealt with this pretty easily but during the fight Garrick fired off his one and only spell, meaning that if we should get attacked by a spellcaster (and I have got a feeling that we soon might) we no longer have a guaranteed way of disrupting them.

We arrived in Nashkel, which Khalid described as being a big city (his head is going to spin when we finally get to Baldur's Gate).

We walked into the local tavern for some well earned rest and were surprised to find another assassin waiting for us. Inevitably, my Cavalier did succumb to Neira's Hold Person spell but fortunately the barrage of missiles (including Magic Missiles from Imoen's wand) managed to kill her before she could do any real damage.

Permidion_Stark

Now I was in Nashkel it was time to do all of the quests on that map. So I talked to Minsc and agreed to help him find his damsel in distress. This meant I had to lose one party member so it was Garrick who had to make way.


I then spoke to Edwin and refused his quest so he disappeared forever.

And I spoke to Noober and was surprised (and a bit annoyed) to find that if you have got Minsc in your party and the BG1 NPC project installed you don't get any experience for doing this.

Once I had spoken to everyone in Nashkel there is to speak to I set off in search of the Gnoll Stronghold.

Permidion_Stark

Minsc was still Level One when he joined the party but I felt it was only appropriate to put him in the frontline. Fortunately the first stop on our journey was the Xvart village, which doesn't pose much of a threat to even a first level character and he soon leveled up.

We then reached the Gnoll stronghold, going by way of the Dryad Falls (where for some reason I completely neglected to take any screenshots). The party was in pretty good shape and I didn't envisage any problems. Unfortunately, I managed to create problems for myself. I was using Kivan, who was wearing the Worn Whispers, to scout for the party. We were in one of the Xvart caves and I sent him forward until he found the Carrion Crawler. I then got Jaheira to cast Entangle so we could safely kill the beast with missile weapons. It all worked fine except for the fact that in trying to be clever I had been very stupid. The Carrion Crawler was entangled but it was still at the back of the cave so none of my party could see it. I then decided to send Kivan forward again, still hiding in the shadows, to try to see the creature without getting caught up himself. Inevitably, he also got entangled. That was when I did something really dumb. At this point Kivan was still hidden so I could have just waited until he could escape. Instead I thought it would be a good idea for him to shoot some arrows at the Carrion Crawler. At which point, the Carrion Crawler un-entangled itself. And that was the end of Kivan.

I was really annoyed with myself for doing this. I really liked having a stealthy ranger in the party and I couldn't believe I had managed to be quite so dumb.

I have vowed never, ever, under any circumstances to cast Entangle again.

Permidion_Stark

The remainder of the Gnoll stronghold was a stroll in the park and I returned to Nashkel with Dynaheir. I figured I should visit the Carnival map before going to the mines and that meant another encounter I generally avoid until I am higher level. Zordal the magician has killed countless of my characters with Melf's Acid Arrows. I find it is pretty much an death spell against low level characters because unlike poison there is no way to counter its effects.

This time Dynaheir proved her worth by interrupting his spells with Larloch's Minor Drain.



Despite this I dismissed Minsc and Dynaheir from the party once we freed Branwen from her stone prison. I wanted a cleric in the party so I was either going to have to get rid of Minsc and Dynaheir or Jaheira and Khalid. Minsc and Dynaheir are definitely the more powerful pair but I wanted to have at least one archer in the party and to me it feels wrong to give Minsc a bow - it feels out of character for him to do anything other than charge headlong into the fray. So Khalid's timidity won out. Fortune favours the meek . . .

To the complete the party I asked Garrick, who was waiting in Nashkel, to rejoin and we set off for the mines.

The party now looked like this:

Permidion_Stark

Some thoughts on the run so far
I normally find the early part of BG1 a bit of a grind. It seems to take ages to get a party from Level 1 - where they feel ridiculously fragile - to Level 2, where everyone but the mages has a reasonable chance of surviving a bandit attack. Generally, I would jump around from map to map, doing the XP-rich quests in an effort to get my characters to level up quickly. This time I have stayed strictly to what seems to be the logical path, completing one map at a time, and it has felt much easier and much quicker to get the party to advance in levels. I have also been surprised to find that it is perfectly possible to do all of the encounters with a low level party. I used to think Tarnesh, Silke, Karlat, Neira and Zordal were all overpowered and likely to be deadly but in fact I was able to overcome them all without any pre-buffing or cheese.

Permidion_Stark

Generally when I go into the mines I head straight down by the shortest path to find Mulahey but this time I explored fully and met lost of kobolds and a couple of ghouls I don't ever remember meeting before. I also managed to walk into some traps I had forgotten existed and which Imoen failed to notice until too late. Once Mulahey was downed I spoke to Xan and agreed to let him join the party - poor old Garrick getting the push again. I have never taken Xan in the party before - I do find him genuinely depressing - and with his seven constitution he is ridiculously weak. Still, I will see how far I can get with him. Or at least how long I can tolerate his company.

Tranzig wasn't much of a challenge so now we are heading off in search of a bandit hideout.

Selerel

I think getting a large group fast is key to level 1 survivability. It seems to be an afterthought when most people talk about ambushes, tough encounters, etc. But yeah, if you have 6 people in your party vs. 2, the odds of your PC dying is much lower. It's also like the first piece of advice that the game gives you outside Candlekeep--that you should join up with other traveleres.

For that reason, I imagine no-reload playthroughs and no-reload SOLO playthroughs are completely different animals, especially BG1.

jmerry

Permidion_Stark wrote: »

Zordal the magician has killed countless of my characters with Melf's Acid Arrows. I find it is pretty much an death spell against low level characters because unlike poison there is no way to counter its effects.

You can't prevent the future damage, but you can try to keep up through healing. An acid arrow is 5 average damage per round while it lasts, and a healing potion is 9 points of healing; potions can pretty much keep up with two arrows.

Looking Zordral up ... level 6 conjurer, with 5/5/2 memorization (should have 5/3/3 spell slots). In order of priority, one Mirror Image, one Horror, three MAA, five LMD. He'll never cast his two Haste spells.

He's also tougher than he should be; 25+12=37 HP including his Con bonus, and a spell save of 3 instead of the 10 it should be.

If you can disrupt his initial spells, he goes down cleanly. If his MI protection works and his Horror panics most of your party, then he's free to deal quite a lot of damage. And if he's targeting a panicked character, that 15 average damage on an acid arrow can't be countered with healing potions.

Permidion_Stark wrote: »

Generally, I would jump around from map to map, doing the XP-rich quests in an effort to get my characters to level up quickly. This time I have stayed strictly to what seems to be the logical path, completing one map at a time, and it has felt much easier and much quicker to get the party to advance in levels.

Of course, if you really want to rush the first few levels, the best tactic is to run solo for a while before recruiting a party. Those joining XP triggers are a powerful resource.

Permidion_Stark

It was now time to raid the bandit camp.


This was the party as they went into action.






The whole encounter proved to be a stroll in the park. I started by sending Imoen, hiding in the shadows, to scout the area. This caused individual bandits to start to patrol the extremities of the camp and I was able to pick off a number of them without being seen. I was expecting Taurgosz Khosann to be a problem but he fell to a Command spell from Branwen and I finished him off while he was on the floor. I then went into Tazok's tent. The battle there was ridiculously easy. Xan cast Horror, everyone failed their saves and I picked them off without them fighting back at all.

Permidion_Stark

What to do now?
Having cleared the bandit camp and triggered Chapter Four I wasn't sure what to do next. Should I head straight on into Cloakwood or explore some of the wilderness areas that I had so far ignored? I decided to do that latter and started visiting the maps bordering the main Friendly Arm Inn-Beregost-Nashkel road. However, I soon regretted doing this because it seemed a bit against the spirit of what I was trying to do in the first place (which is seeing how far I can get without picking and choosing my fights) so I have decided that I will go back to my save at the beginning of Chapter Four and head straight into Cloakwood.

Assuming I don't get killed along the way I will then explore the wilderness areas before entering Baldur's Gate itself.

Permidion_Stark

So it's off to Cloakwood but first I stopped off In the Friendly Arm Inn to ask Garrick to rejoin the party.

I couldn't stand Xan's company any longer. I know the joke is that he is always depressed but the problem is he makes me depressed right along with him. This does of course mean that my only arcane spellslinger is a Level 2 bard with 13 intelligence. Davaeorn will be quaking in his boots.

Permidion_Stark

I made it through Cloakwood without any real problems. Having a Cavalier who is immune to poison is a great advantage when fighting spiders, ettercaps and wyverns. I was also lucky because I didn't run into the ettercap ambush which usually causes me problems (I probably shouldn't speak too soon though - I still have to get back and it will probably get me then).

Arriving at the mine the party was confronted by Drasus. We gave him the time honoured reply (does anyone ever choose any of the other options here?)

The fight was going well thanks to some Holy Smiting by Branwen, some insects summoned by Jaheira and a Horror spell cast from a scroll by Garrick (he is Level 5 and so still only knows level one spells). Unfortunately, my Cavalier then got confused:

The rest of the party told her to go and stand in a corner and think hard about what she had done:

Permidion_Stark

The party are just about to head downstairs to meet Davaeorn:

I am feeling quite apprehensive about this encounter. My party is much less experienced and much less well equipped than they generally would be at this stage and I am starting to think relying on Garrick as my arcane caster could be costly. He has got three first level spells memorised (all Chromatic Orb) but the only second level spells he knows are Ghoul Touch and Stinking Cloud, which I can't see being much use (and which I forgot to get him to memorise anyway!). He has got a Wand of Fear (again no use) and a few scrolls (Haste, Slow and Spell Thrust) which could come in handy. Branwen has memorised Animate Dead and got Dispel Magic for when things start to go wrong . . .

Permidion_Stark

The battle proved to be a total anti-climax. Imoen used a potion to turn invisible and checked for traps, which meant I didn't have to face any Battle Horrors. Meanwhile, Davaeorn just stood there waiting for the party to attack him so they were all able to buff themselves (all I used was Aid, Chant and Protection from Evil) before going into battle. When he saw the party Davaeorn just stared Dimension Dooring all round the place but the only offensive spell he cast was a single lightning bolt which hit Khalid (who then panicked and drank a totally unnecessary potion of heroism). In the meantime, Jaheira had summoned some insects which just followed Davaeron around until they caught up to him and as soon as they did the battle was over because he couldn't cast anymore.


To be honest it was slightly deflating. I had expected the battle to be quite tough but it turned out to be very easy. I think Summon Insects may be the culprit here. It is basically a an insta-death spell for mages.

Anyway, after looting Davaeron's quarters we flooded the mine. This film always gives me the willies.


As predicted, we got attacked by Ettercaps on the way home. Fortunately, we had managed to kill them before Imoen triggered the trap while she was attempting to find it (which was a bit disappointing considering she has got 90 points in Find Traps)

Permidion_Stark

Since defeating Davaeorn I have been systematically going through all of the wilderness areas, none of which proved to be much of a challenge since the party now seems to be overpowered for nearly all of the encounters. I had reached the point where all that was left was the Firewine Bridge, the Basilisk map, the Ankheg farm (which I was going to do on the way to Baldur's Gate itself) and the Zombie Farm. So I decided to do Firewine Bridge next. I figured my big problem here would be fighting Kahrk but I ran into trouble before I even got to him . . .

Generally, I go into the Firewine dungeon via the back door in Gullykin because I find that makes the fight easier but this time I thought I should go from the entrance on Firewine Bridge to make it more of a challenge (and to play in the spirit of minimal metagaming). I made it through all of the dungeon (collecting dozens of fire arrows along the way). But then I ran into Lendarn and I really messed things up.

He was round a corner (I knew he was there because I could hear him casting Improved Invisibility on himself) so I sent Imoen, hiding in the shadows, ahead to find him. I then used a Wand of Monster Summoning to send some critters to attack him but he killed them very easily with a Lightning Bolt. I could have used the Wand again and sent in more monsters but for some reason I decided I should play fair and instead played stupid. I basically got my whole party to charge round the corner to attack him hoping they could disrupt him before he could get a spell off. Not a great plan as it turned out.

I really liked having Branwen in the party and I found her spells to be more useful than either of my other casters (Jaheira and Garrick). Unfortunately, I won't be able to find a like for like replacement for her since I am way too good for Viconia's tastes - though I will probably take her in briefly so that there is story continuity if I meet her again in SoD and BG2.

Mind you, I am now getting way ahead of myself, because if I keep making dumb moves like I did in Firewine Bridge my chances of getting that far seem remote.

Yigor

@Permidion_Stark Do U use a mod that transforms Imoen from a plain thief to Swashbuckler‽ ?

Permidion_Stark

Yigor wrote: »

@Permidion_Stark Do U use a mod that transforms Imoen from a plain thief to Swashbuckler‽ ?

Yes. It is Level One NPCs that you can get from the Gibberlings 3 site: https://gibberlings3.github.io/Documentation/readmes/readme-level1npcs.html

You can change the kits and classes of any of the original Bioware NPCs (I don't think it works on the new Beamdog ones). I feel swashbuckler fits Imoen's character much better than straight thief. However, next time, I'm going to make her into a bard since that actually seems like a perfect fit for her.

Permidion_Stark

Having lost Branwen I went and recruited Viconia. And promptly went and lost her too. And I didn't only lose her. I also lost Garrick.

And then I lost Jaheira.

I knew the fight against Kahrk was a tough one but I wasn't prepared for how tough. Mind you I probably deserved what happened because I had cheated on my self-imposed rules and done some metagaming before going into battle. I knew he was going to cast a Minor Globe of Invulnerability so I got Garrick to memorise Spell Thrust to bring it down. The only problem was the spell didn't work. I'm not sure why this was but it may have been because I got Garrick to start casting before Kahrk turned hostile. Anyway, with all his defences still intact it turned out I couldn't lay a glove on him so I tried running for the map edge but he managed to kill Garrick and Viconia with a Lightning Bolt before we got there. The rest of the party escaped but of course I had not only lost two party members but a whole load of gear. So the four remaining members rested up and went back to collect the equipment. They could have done this without any trouble because Kahrk was not in sight. I sent Imoen to look for him and discovered that the only defence he had up was Protection from Normal Missiles so I foolishly thought he was there for the taking. As soon as I got close he put up multiple mirror images so I got Jaheira to cast Summon Insects hoping to bring them down. Kahrk of course made his save and the spell had no effect. His armour class was so low that none of my fighters could hit him and the only way I could bring down the mirror images was for Imoen to take them out one by one with a Wand of Magic Missiles. By the time she had done this Jaheira was dead and Khalid was close to it.

All in all, it was a total disaster. I've managed to get all my favourite characters killed and to be honest I am not sure who to recruit next.

Selerel

Lendarn's Lightning Bolts, I'm realizing, are one of the biggest low level threats. So easy to get a party wiped out.

Permidion_Stark

Selerel wrote: »

Lendarn's Lightning Bolts, I'm realizing, are one of the biggest low level threats. So easy to get a party wiped out.

That's true. But stupid play on my part also contributed to my downfall. My Cavalier is wearing Talos's Gift and the Gift of Peace so she has got 70% electricity resistance. She has also got 90 Hit Points. I didn't really need to put the rest of the party in harm's way when I was fighting Lendarn. I could have sent her in on her own and I think she would have made pretty short work of him.

Kahrk on the other hand . . .

jmerry

Kahrk is just nasty all around - including extremely good saves of 4/3/3/5/2. You were targeting his weakest save with a -4 modifier, and he still had a 60% chance of making it.

Of course, the option of simply not fighting him never crossed your mind. Sealed evil in a jar? Of course we open the jar so we can fight it!

Permidion_Stark

Having got half my party killed I decided the only thing to do was to re-recruit Minsk and Dynaheir. Unfortunately, they are both only level 2:



Fortunately, I have got nearly 40,000 GP so I can buy them the best equipment and once I have done that we are off to kill some Ankhegs.

Permidion_Stark

The party has finally arrived at Baldur's Gate. I love seeing these movies again.


This is the current state of the group. I decided to add Faldorn to the mix - partly because I have never really used her before and partly because I find Druid spells can be very useful, particularly when fighting mages:






More movies.


And a new area to explore! The party are going to Balduran's Seatower: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/77570/mod-baldurans-seatower-early-access-open-beta/p1