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Single, dual, or multi?

1. Single-classed characters level up very fast toward the end of the game, eventually becoming higher level than Elminster, which just feels wrong.

2. Dual-classed character have the same issues, and the idea of losing abilities for any length of time bugs me.

3. Multi-classing, however, hits the sweet spot. Leveling is slow and end in the 20’s, which feels like a good end point.

So, I prefer multi-classing. What about you?

Single, dual, or multi? 22 votes

Single-class
40%
O_BrucePermidion_StarkGrond0AerakarDanacmZaghoulZaxaresArviaVamel 9 votes
Dual-class
31%
MERLANCENoonBalrog99NeverusedNimranIseweinSelerel 7 votes
Multi-class
27%
sarevok57JuliusBorisovjsavingmessyStummvonBordwehrXDarkStrikerX 6 votes
ArviaJuliusBorisovVicissitude

Comments

  • VicissitudeVicissitude Member Posts: 46
    edited October 10
    Multi-classes usually are stronger because single-class' benefits often cap halfway through the game. Take THACO for instance, it will reach its peak when you're level 22. So while you'll eventually level up for nothing significant being a level 30 single-classed Fighter, multi-classes will have a real progression all along. You'll get the best of two worlds before leveling up gets superfluous.

    However, one could argue that single-classed characters reach their highest potential sooner. It's a good point. That said, you'll start out stronger with the tools of two classes combined than just one, at least most of the time. A level 1 Fighter/Mage will be able to use better weapons between spells and wield a shield to lower its AC effectively. Armor is also a possibility when you're out of spells. The faster progression of the mage will NOT catch up with that advantage in the first levels of BG1. Second example: should you be a Mage/Thief, you'll get valuable utility and better THACO. Again, faster progression is not going to compensate.

    Dual-classing is a tricky one. It depends on what you dual-class into, from what and when. What is certain though is that you have, for instance, zero reason to not dual from a fighter kit in the first chapters of BG2 if you intend to play a mage. You'll catch up with the XP poured into your first class so quickly that it will barely delay your other class progression. There are a few dual choices like that that are no-brainers, so much so that dual-classing becomes the right way to single-class. How ironical.

    In the end, single-classes are only justified from a powergaming perspective if you want to a play a unique kit that is both unavailable for dual-classing and multi-classing. If you want to roleplay, everything's fine.

    Post edited by Vicissitude on
    AerakarArviaJuliusBorisov
  • VicissitudeVicissitude Member Posts: 46
    edited October 11
    It's also worth noting that party composition matters a lot so it's hard to generalize. New players don't realize that reaching the best levels in a full party takes a very long time if you're multi-classed. Conversely, they may not know how fast a single-class becomes redundant if you solo it. It can be troublesome both ways.

    A balanced party needs a little bit of thieving skills, arcane and righteous magic. If you've got those covered, it's fine to single-class. If you don't, however, you might want to consider dual-classing or multi-classing to fill in the missing role.

    Personally, I wouldn't bother with shorties. Sure, I'm missing out on better saving throws if I play a human or half-human but that's nothing I can't fix with potions, spells, rings and so on. It's also redundant if you seek a higher magic resistance and if you play around with spell immunities, which I like to.

    Is it even worth it if you're not in the front line? I wouldn't be too sure... Meanwhile, if you dual or multi-class into a thief, you can get an extra fighter in place of a thief that has the same shorties, like Kagain. It's just my opinion though.

    ArviaJuliusBorisovAerakar
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,255
    edited October 11
    Dual-class
    Damn it! Now I want to restart with either a Cleric dualed to mage, or a Necromancer dualed to cleric. Either way it sounds like fun!

    Going Necro to cleric sounds interesting, but it'd be a slog as a single-class cleric if I dualed at level 16 or 18 (I can't imagine being a Necromancer who doesn't have Horrid Wilting and two levels more gets you an HLA and Wail of the Banshee!). On the other hand, if I dualed earlier I could be an undead exploding cleric with Skulltrap. I hate restartitis... 🤬

    ArviaJuliusBorisov
  • ArviaArvia Member, Moderator Posts: 1,971
    edited October 12
    Single-class
    Where is

    4. Other (please explain) ? :)

    It depends. If I intend to play with a full party and start from Candlekeep, I prefer single class. If I plan to be completionist and take along every NPC at least for their quest, or if I play with a small party, I'd prefer multiclassing.

    I prefer to play minimal or no-reload, and if I go with roleplaying restrictions and a full party, I won't have such a fast level progression. A F/M/T may shine late in the game, but not in the Bandit Camp with a party of 6. I like it when a character is useful in any stage of the game, because survival counts from Candlekeep to ToB. As I said, with a smaller party or a more completionist XP heavy playthrough, I don't mind multiclassing, but I use it to enhance the abilities of one of the classes more than actually using both classes equally. For example I have a fighter/thief in the Android beta, and I use him more like a thief with better Thac0 and weapon proficiency than as a fighter who can detect traps or something.

    I'm not a fan of dual-classing, but that's probably because I only play human when I play Paladin, who can't dual anyway.

    Post edited by Arvia on
    JuliusBorisovAerakarVicissitude
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 2,311
    4) All of the above.

    I design around whole parties rather than just the protagonist; even if most of the characters are NPCs with their standard classes, they're all considered even before the run starts, when I plan things out. And as I pick characters to fit the concept, all of these options come into play.

    For example, my last full run was built around a fire theme; make the party immune and blow things up.

    Naturally, the protagonist was a Dragon Disciple. Massive firepower, and the only class that gets full permanent fire immunity innately.
    For BGEE, I paired him with an Avenger. That character spent much of her time on the front lines in fire salamander form.
    My second BGEE front-liner was Jaheira (fighter/druid multi), using equipment (scimitar, ring, helmet) to achieve fire immunity.
    Khalid (fighter) came with her, focusing on archery.
    Imoen tagged along, as trapfinder and second mage (thief-mage dual). I avoided dungeons and cleared wilderness areas during her downtime.
    Kivan (ranger) joined the party as another archer, later to be replaced in that role by Coran (fighter/thief multi)

    In BG2EE, I killed off that Avenger. The protagonist and Jaheira returned - only now Jaheira went for shapeshifting (fire elemental form HLA) for her immunity.
    The avenger was replaced by Cernd (shapeshifter), who also used fire elemental form.
    Imoen was replaced by Nalia (thief-mage dual), using the fire resistance from her signet ring in conjunction with the ring of fire control to achieve immunity.
    The last two slots went to Anomen (fighter-cleric dual) and mod NPC Isra (cavalier). Both used multiple equipment pieces to achieve their fire immunity - helped along by Anomen's personal shield and Isra's innate resistance.

    Single class, dual class, and multi class characters are all represented in both games. That wasn't the goal; it was simply a side effect of choosing the best party to fit the theme.

    JuliusBorisovArviaAerakarDinoDin
  • Christian79Christian79 Member Posts: 23
    Like someone wrote already, all of them.

    When playing a mage, dual into it from a strong fighter kit. Berserker->Cleric is also very strong. Those are straight upgrades over mages and clerics and, if not dualed too late, also almost straight upgrades over multiclasses, unless you are determined to get fighter HLA. Thaco gets partly compensated through Grandmastery and you get damage bonus on top. The caster part is a straight upgrade over multi. More spellslots and better scaling. This assumes party Play with split XP of course.

    Since thieves get way more Skillpoints than needed those are great when played as multis. They benefit from every class without really sacrificing anything in return.

    Single classes shine when playing strong or just interesting kits.

    ArviaAerakar
  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 918
    Single-class
    In the last decade i played mostly multi-classes because of easier and stronger characters, and build one man armies. But it become boring and the npc-s just used for nothing. After some years i started to rp-ing and planing parties, with specialists so i started to use single class charnames, bards, paladins, rangers or mages, but i had single classed druid charname as well. I feel it more fun, to my npc-s as important as my charname in combat situations.

    ArviaAerakar
  • SelerelSelerel Member Posts: 115
    Dual-class
    I voted Dual Class, because at different stages of the saga you're able to get the experiences of 2 single-classes AND a multi-class in one character.

    Balrog99AerakarDinoDinNimran
  • VicissitudeVicissitude Member Posts: 46
    edited October 12
    Aerakar wrote: »
    I just enjoy the specialization of a single class character versus the utility or power of multis and duals.

    To be fair, we tend to exaggerate the difference between single, dual and multi-classes. Whatever I said above is true, but that doesn't mean it's a big deal. I will even go as far as to say it's not really RP vs powergaming.

    First, there are a few single-classes that are jack-of-all-trades, so much so that they can be compared to multi-classes. I'll take two examples: the Blade, which is basically a lesser Fighter/Mage with unique advantages. Second example: the Swashbuckler, which is a thief with fighter looks. It's sort of a lesser Fighter/Thief but, once again, it has unique abilities that make up for it and it retains maximum utility beyond backstabbing. One could argue that both the F/M and the F/T are superior choices, but it'd be preposterous to claim there's a huge gap in power between them. I think it's actually possible to demonstrate Blades are on par with F/M if their strengths are maxed out. In the end, the real waste is when picking a single-class Fighter when you could have picked a F/M or F/M. You don't gain anything by being a mere Fighter while you gain something unique when you play a kit... especially a good kit!

    Second, the whole powergaming thing is about feeling all-mighty. It's about potential, not actual power. Indeed, there are so many ways to cheese the game that you don't need to be the mightiest class to walk unchallenged. Knowing the game's mechanics is far, far, FAR stronger than picking whatever class for powergaming reasons. Let's admit it, we just like looking at numbers (especially DPS calculations for nerds) because it makes us feel empowered. But, really, it's smokescreen for vanity.

    Therefore, you're absolutely right to play whatever feels best for you as you'll be godlike if you know what you're doing.

    Grond0AerakarArvia
  • DinoDinDinoDin Member Posts: 1,449
    As others have said, I have no favorite. I just want to state my own personal love of the class system in these games. It's a large part of what gives the series its replay value. There's just enough flexibility in the system to build just about any character while also maintaining enough restrictions for "classes" to still feel like an immersive system. Your character is taking on a real role when you pick a class, not just picking what perks or stats are going to help you the most. IMO, no other CRPG has topped it.

    For me personally, my class decision is what @jmerry said. It's based on thinking about which NPC's I want to take at each stage of the saga. I'm often starting characters with the idea of including companions I haven't used lately.

    AerakarArvia
  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 789
    Dual-class
    I like duals best just because you can do so many weird things with the kits that aren't possible in multis. Beastmaster 12-> Cleric and just spam a gazillion animal summonings usings the 1 - 3 slots? Totally playable, if hilariously inefficient after awhile. Also you're a Beast master for 12 levels. Priest of Helm -> Fighter to try to abuse the 3 APR from Seeking Blade, and possibly leveraging True Sight? Cool! Mage 2 -> Fighter to gain access to scrolls and wands at the expense of a few HP early game? (you actually get more HP on average after the ToB Find Familiar...) Pretty neat concept to try!

    Then there's silly ideas like Shapeshifter 13 -> Fighter or Avenger 7 -> Fighter to try to abuse the shapeshifts into actual usefulness, Kensai -> Druid to actually allow Barkskin to do something (maybe)...

    AerakarArvia
  • Christian79Christian79 Member Posts: 23
    edited October 13
    I don´t know how I feel about giving up on a fighter kit only for the use of scrolls and wands especially since good scrolls are a rather limited resource. I know its way later but a Fighter/Thief eventually gets to do that (and much more) once scrolls aren´t that scarce anymore. But I don´t know whether thieves can get a familiar with UAI...

    edit: on second thought: Can a mage->fighter cast from scrolls while wearing armor?

    Post edited by Christian79 on
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 2,311
    Yes, a protagonist thief can get a familiar through UAI.

    Scrolls ... even in my no-spellcasting party, with a bard along to enable the option (and a fighter/thief protagonist eventually gaining UAI), I didn't use them much. I used a few "silver bullet" strikes like a Cloudkill scroll on Davaeorn, but mostly they just sat in the scroll case until I either cashed them in for XP or sold them.
    Wands, on the other hand, saw plenty of action - even into ToB. Cloudkill to disrupt spellcasters. Lightning for Devil Shades and their massive weakness. Spell Striking to clear away abjuration immunity so that Keldorn's dispel could get through.

    StummvonBordwehrArviaAerakar
  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 918
    Single-class
    Mage->fighter early dual is not a bad combination, not powergamy but like a single class. You gain scroll using, minimal spellslots and use of wands, later amulet of power etc. In bg1 the wand using is huge, but boring, you can just pew pew the whole game with fire wand, kill every enemy like a machine gunner. But also you loose some hp-s in level 1-3 and exeptional strength.

  • VicissitudeVicissitude Member Posts: 46
    edited October 13
    I don´t know how I feel about giving up on a fighter kit only for the use of scrolls and wands especially since good scrolls are a rather limited resource.

    Actually, you can use simulacrums to clone your scrolls and solve the problem of high-level scrolls being scarce. Just put whatever scroll you want to cast in one of your quick slots, cast simulacrum, use the scroll from your clone and voilà! The original scroll will not be destroyed and you can repeat the process if you wait long enough. If you can't cast simulacrum from your spell pool, you can use Vhailor's Helm once per day. This makes casting from scrolls a viable option.
    edit: on second thought: Can a mage->fighter cast from scrolls while wearing armor?

    Edit: I thought you meant casting from your spell pool, in which case no. For scrolls, I think you can eventually.

    Post edited by Vicissitude on
  • Christian79Christian79 Member Posts: 23
    edited October 13
    Actually, you can use simulacrums to clone your scrolls. Just put whatever scroll you want to cast in one of your quick slots, cast simulacrum, use the scroll from your clone and voilà! The original scroll will not be destroyed and you can repeat the process if you wait long enough. If you can't cast simulacrum from your spell pool, you can use Vhailor's Helm once per day.

    I am using SCS which prevents this kind of cheese. :#
    Nope, unless you wear a specific armor that allows it.

    This seems to make it a tad risky in BG1.

    Arvia
  • VicissitudeVicissitude Member Posts: 46
    edited October 13
    Actually, you can use simulacrums to clone your scrolls. Just put whatever scroll you want to cast in one of your quick slots, cast simulacrum, use the scroll from your clone and voilà! The original scroll will not be destroyed and you can repeat the process if you wait long enough. If you can't cast simulacrum from your spell pool, you can use Vhailor's Helm once per day.

    I am using SCS which prevents this kind of cheese. :#
    Nope, unless you wear a specific armor that allows it.

    This seems to make it a tad risky in BG1.

    I actually don't mind this one, it's far from being the worst cheese and it brings a whole new gameplay for classes that can't cast high-level scrolls naturally. Since arcane users tend to be overpowered in this game, it closes the gap a little.

    Apologies for my second answer, I read too fast and thought you meant learning from scrolls and then use them as a learned spell. I know I can cast in armor from scrolls if I'm a F/M or even a Bard, but when it comes to dualclassing I'd guess you won't be able to when you're a sole fighter or mage since you can't wear armor when you're a mage and can't cast from scrolls if you're a fighter. After you've reached the necessary xp to get your mage class to dual effectively into fighter, you should be able to cast from scrolls while in armor just like a F/M, but not your spell pool unless you have a specific armor. Someone will probably confirm or disprove.

  • ArviaArvia Member, Moderator Posts: 1,971
    Single-class
    I personally think that the above mentioned possibility (which SCS prevents) to use consumable items like scrolls from the quickslot of a simulacrum can really break the balance quite a bit, considering that you sometimes find or can buy only one scroll of some higher level spells in SoA. And then you can buy Vhailor's Helm and use them in every battle, and besides IIRC spells cast from scrolls can't be interrupted, so that's a huge difference to regular gameplay.
    Anything is allowed in single player games of course, but it can turn combat from a challenge to a cakewalk quickly when compared to usual progression of available spells. Not everyone enjoys that.
    In no-reload the hoarding and occasional use of scrolls can really turn the tide of a battle, but to spam them like that would kill the fun for me.

    One big plus in favor of single class that I forgot to mention in my first post is that I quite like to try out the many different kits available, to try out the differences and how it affects gameplay. Of course those could be dualed then, but I fear I would fall into the optimization trap then which seems to be the cause of so many cases of restartitis. Or it could lead to different builds that are then still played in the same way, and I love to try out new things and characters that require me to adjust the way I play them instead of falling back into old patterns.

    VicissitudeAerakar
  • VicissitudeVicissitude Member Posts: 46
    edited October 13
    Arvia wrote: »
    I personally think that the above mentioned possibility (which SCS prevents) to use consumable items like scrolls from the quickslot of a simulacrum can really break the balance quite a bit, considering that you sometimes find or can buy only one scroll of some higher level spells in SoA. And then you can buy Vhailor's Helm and use them in every battle, and besides IIRC spells cast from scrolls can't be interrupted, so that's a huge difference to regular gameplay.
    Anything is allowed in single player games of course, but it can turn combat from a challenge to a cakewalk quickly when compared to usual progression of available spells. Not everyone enjoys that.
    In no-reload the hoarding and occasional use of scrolls can really turn the tide of a battle, but to spam them like that would kill the fun for me.

    I respect your opinion. Here's why I personally don't mind:

    1) You're bothered by the fact that with simulacrum a rare scroll can be used multiple times. You mention that this breaks balance. What I don't understand is that learning from a rare scroll and casting the rare spell whenever you want from your spell pool leads to the same result as casting from quick items through simulacrums. In both cases you'll be able to cast the rare spell more than once, circumventing the scarceness. If it was impossible to learn from those scrolls, I would agree with you. But you can!

    2) Vhailor's Helm doesn't allow you to cast simulacrum in every battle, it's once per day. You may claim that one can sleep an entire day between each battle but how is that any different from resting between every fight and recasting from your spell pool?

    3) What turns combat into a cakewalk isn't cloning if you ask me, it's high-level arcane magic no matter the source. There are quite a few spell combos that are so powerful that it's basically a "press to win"' situation. I understand mages start out pretty underwhelming and need to come out very strong to compensate, but ultimately high-level arcane magic was blown out of proportion. Also, there are a few potions or protection scrolls that are OP, cloned or not. Blaming cloning for using broken spells/items is kinda misleading in my humble opinion, there wouldn't be anything broken if the scroll/spell/potion wasn't broken in the first place.

    Arvia
  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 789
    Dual-class
    Yes, you can cast from scrolls with armor on. It's a fun little dual, almost definitely weaker than a F/M in the long run, but definitely comparable to a Fighter kit: the ability to cast Invisibility, Stoneskin, PfMW, use wands of Fireball and paralysis early on, and even Tensor's Transformation, even just from scrolls, would match up well to a Berserker IMO. There's also the -2 bonus you get vs saving throws in your school, so that's a factor as well.

  • Christian79Christian79 Member Posts: 23
    Don't know about Tenser. Scroll in SOA are cast with Level 10 Caster level. Your are most probably nerfing your Thaco by a good margin.

  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 2,311
    Tenser's Transformation cast at minimum level (anything from 1 to 12) ... base THAC0 set to 9, duration 12 rounds. Then you get a +2 bonus, for effective base THAC0 7. With all of the weapon/mastery/stat bonuses you can stack on top of that as a fighter, you shouldn't have trouble hitting things.
    For most spells, the minimum effective caster level is the minimum level you can cast them at; you won't get any less than 12th level effects for level 6 spells, 14th level effects for level 7 spells, 16th level effects for level 8 spells, and 18th level effects for level 9 spells. Casting them with an actual caster level of 10 is only worse in regard to dispel checks.

    On that "in your school" note - specialization does lock you out of scroll-casting anything in your opposition school. It's a significant drawback, and might not be worthwhile. Especially since you're not really getting anything from the primary kit bonus of extra spell slots.

    Grond0AerakarStummvonBordwehr
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,255
    Dual-class
    jmerry wrote: »
    Tenser's Transformation cast at minimum level (anything from 1 to 12) ... base THAC0 set to 9, duration 12 rounds. Then you get a +2 bonus, for effective base THAC0 7. With all of the weapon/mastery/stat bonuses you can stack on top of that as a fighter, you shouldn't have trouble hitting things.
    For most spells, the minimum effective caster level is the minimum level you can cast them at; you won't get any less than 12th level effects for level 6 spells, 14th level effects for level 7 spells, 16th level effects for level 8 spells, and 18th level effects for level 9 spells. Casting them with an actual caster level of 10 is only worse in regard to dispel checks.

    On that "in your school" note - specialization does lock you out of scroll-casting anything in your opposition school. It's a significant drawback, and might not be worthwhile. Especially since you're not really getting anything from the primary kit bonus of extra spell slots.

    You get the save bonus/penalty for your specialization school. That also applies to scrolls and wands so you are getting 'something', especially if you choose invoker.

  • ArviaArvia Member, Moderator Posts: 1,971
    Single-class
    Arvia wrote: »
    I personally think that the above mentioned possibility (which SCS prevents) to use consumable items like scrolls from the quickslot of a simulacrum can really break the balance quite a bit, considering that you sometimes find or can buy only one scroll of some higher level spells in SoA. And then you can buy Vhailor's Helm and use them in every battle, and besides IIRC spells cast from scrolls can't be interrupted, so that's a huge difference to regular gameplay.
    Anything is allowed in single player games of course, but it can turn combat from a challenge to a cakewalk quickly when compared to usual progression of available spells. Not everyone enjoys that.
    In no-reload the hoarding and occasional use of scrolls can really turn the tide of a battle, but to spam them like that would kill the fun for me.

    I respect your opinion. Here's why I personally don't mind:

    1) You're bothered by the fact that with simulacrum a rare scroll can be used multiple times. You mention that this breaks balance. What I don't understand is that learning from a rare scroll and casting the rare spell whenever you want from your spell pool leads to the same result as casting from quick items through simulacrums. In both cases you'll be able to cast the rare spell more than once, circumventing the scarceness. If it was impossible to learn from those scrolls, I would agree with you. But you can!

    2) Vhailor's Helm doesn't allow you to cast simulacrum in every battle, it's once per day. You may claim that one can sleep an entire day between each battle but how is that any different from resting between every fight and recasting from your spell pool?

    3) What turns combat into a cakewalk isn't cloning if you ask me, it's high-level arcane magic no matter the source. There are quite a few spell combos that are so powerful that it's basically a "press to win"' situation. I understand mages start out pretty underwhelming and need to come out very strong to compensate, but ultimately high-level arcane magic was blown out of proportion. Also, there are a few potions or protection scrolls that are OP, cloned or not. Blaming cloning for using broken spells/items is kinda misleading in my humble opinion, there wouldn't be anything broken if the scroll/spell/potion wasn't broken in the first place.

    (I hope I'm not derailing the thread too much by answering that. Also not trying to convince anyone that my opinion is right, it's a personal opinion after all. Just explaining)

    By casting a scroll from a similacrum's quickslot, you can use it more often than when you memorize the spell, because you can cast spells that are still above your casting level without having to fret when to use that precious high-level spell, or use more than your spell slots allow at your current level. Memorizing the spell doesn't help you if you can't cast it yet or have only one level 8 or 9 slot and various valuable spells for that slot. Additionally, not being interrupted while casting is a huge advantage compared to casting from your memorized spells.

    And imagine using the one and only Protection from Magic scroll in SoA, sold by Ribald, like that. Instead of a once-in-a-lifetime rescue item you could use it every time.

    You don't need to agree with me, but maybe that makes it a bit clearer where my impression comes from.

  • Christian79Christian79 Member Posts: 23
    I find it fun to have more pressure when managing resources. But I have played BG2 several times and so I know the difficulty spikes and when to use the big guns. Duping items through simulacrum may be considered cheese or not cheese by personal definition. You usually don´t need it depending on party and meta knowledge.

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