Why Are Thieves Considered Weak?
Conwan
Member Posts: 39
For the longest time I bought into the hype that single class thieves are weak and that you shouldn't play them. The most common reason cited is their poor thac0 and APR, which makes them useless in a fight.
Then I actually decided to play them and... hoo boy I was wrong.
Thieves are really, really good. A bounty hunter all but trivialized the entirety of BG1 and SoD. Even in BG2 his traps all but dominate. At first with strong damage, later (ignoring the awkward Otiluke phase) with tactile planning that allowed me to plant even MOAAAR traps while the enemies respawned in small pairs. Then I got access to spike traps... GG, but it was over. Maze and Spike traps synchronize really well together.
This little guy could take out liches in a stage of the game where I struggled with other power builds (mostly due to lack of good equipment) to do the same. Many of the difficult battles became a joke, the only limit was the amount of times I rested to regain my traps, which became less and less necessary as I got more traps. I don't think I've ever had as easy a playthrough as I've had with this Halfling Bounty Hunter.
So... what am I missing here? Why are so many guides and tier lists out there labelling thieves as the weakest of the bunch when I can easily outdamage others with my burst damage?
Then I actually decided to play them and... hoo boy I was wrong.
Thieves are really, really good. A bounty hunter all but trivialized the entirety of BG1 and SoD. Even in BG2 his traps all but dominate. At first with strong damage, later (ignoring the awkward Otiluke phase) with tactile planning that allowed me to plant even MOAAAR traps while the enemies respawned in small pairs. Then I got access to spike traps... GG, but it was over. Maze and Spike traps synchronize really well together.
This little guy could take out liches in a stage of the game where I struggled with other power builds (mostly due to lack of good equipment) to do the same. Many of the difficult battles became a joke, the only limit was the amount of times I rested to regain my traps, which became less and less necessary as I got more traps. I don't think I've ever had as easy a playthrough as I've had with this Halfling Bounty Hunter.
So... what am I missing here? Why are so many guides and tier lists out there labelling thieves as the weakest of the bunch when I can easily outdamage others with my burst damage?
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Comments
This continues through most of Baldur's Gate 2, but by then a Fighter/Thief can duel wield and be a top tier damage dealer, all with minimal micro-management. A fighter/Thief also has plenty of skill points to go around by the time Spike Traps are available, which further increases their power.
I don't think you're really missing anything. If you're building a team based on role-playing and are comfortable micro-managing, then pure class thieves are valuable, even powerful, members of the team. If you're playing a more power gamey way, then a Fighter/Thief or Fighter(kit)-->Thief are superior by almost every measure.
One last thing. None of the above isn't to say that a playthrough using increased difficulty Mods precludes the use of a pure thief. A good gamer can accomplish almost everything in the Baldur's Gate trilogy with almost any team composition of character classes (or even solo!). So, glad you enjoyed your Bounty Hunter and ignore the haters.
That and most thief play strategies center around backstab, which drops significantly in usefulness due to backstab immunities... at about when Thieves reach their developmental apex. (I happen to be a fan of traps myself so I get where you're coming from, at least - I usually have BG1 Imoen split her points between find traps and set traps - but without the Bounty Hunter's special traps they're less than useful against anything that requires +1 or better to hit, plus backstabbery is a more active style of play anyway so it keeps the player more engaged)
Which in my case the reason to play trueclass being because I plan to dual is usually true, but that's because I can't not play a fighter/cleric of some sort, I don't like playing as a paladin, and playing as a multi in BG1 slows your progression more than you'd expect (a solo triple is basically a three person party with only one aura between them, which... not for me, thank you)
The other situation that can happen is that our power-gaming min-maxer mentalities will compare dual-class/multi-class behemoths to single class thieves in the context of party-building and come to the conclusion that thievery is not worth one full character slot in the party because they could have a full-fledged fighter or caster if they just dipped into another class. The power-game approach tends to weed out low APR builds because of how strong APR is. It can also completely disregard utility that you can't exactly quantify on paper, if you understand what I mean.
I personally love thieves. They have always been my favorite class. When I was a boy I romanticized the idea of a solo thief run quite heavily and still to this day think the thief play-style is the most important and most fun. Thieves are so strong in the city; they have an answer for everything and can hard-carry you through Athkatla right when you get out of the sewer. Their scouting potential enables your whole party to benefit from better strategies and tactics too. If you're using your thief properly, then your party will always be safe. As far as the kits go, I think Bounty Hunter is hands-down the best. Especially when you get into higher difficulties. Those maze traps are so freaking strong it's absurd. Assassin is just badass and awesome. Their poison is super strong, you can use it to kill almost anything. Shadowdancers are super cool too, but are obviously going to be highly mechanically intensive. Swashies are great for a newbie, I used to run a swashie when I was a boy because I didn't understand the backstab mechanics very well and they're almost as good as a fighter at some point. Anyway, yeah, I love thieves.
Ironically, and controversially, I find the swashbuckler to be the weakest of all kits for the same reason you enjoyed it. Even weaker than an unkitted thief. In theory it sounds good, but in practice you're taking away half of its damage (the part that @Pokota says is the most engaging) for something that does not put it on par with fighter or fighter/thief and only reaches its peak at max level with all kinds of cheesy gear that I personally prefer to spread around my team. You get more damage, but no APR, which really hurts it since I prefer to give a speed weapon to someone like Korgan, Mazzy or Jaheira.
That being said, I'd place fighter and thief on the same level. They just function completely differently and that may affect people's views. It also doesn't help that most people build their thief as a utility bot first and damage dealer second. I find a good backstab (5 attacks in one) just as effective as five attacks. It's why assassination (when it works) works best with a F/T. But I for the life of me can't play a multiclass. Probably because I play more as one class and underutilize the second one.
- Tank. You get up there in the enemy's face and draw their attention, swinging your melee weapon. Obviously, you need defense to absorb the counterattacks - heavy armor, damage resistance, absolute defenses. Thieves are bad at this; only a high-level (UAI) swashbuckler can really pull it off.
- Archer. You attack with a ranged weapon at a distance, and just try to put out as much damage as possible. And if they come for you, either withdraw or switch to melee. Defense is not a high priority, because the enemy is attacking the tank instead. Thieves with bows are tolerable here because of the natural 2 APR, but still not a match for a specialized warrior.
- Skirmisher. This one's tricky - you fight in melee, but you don't have the defenses to stay there. Instead, you need to slip in and out, hitting hard and retreating before the counterattack can land. Thieves - all kinds of thieves - are naturally suited to this role.
So, what does it take to play a skirmisher well?
First, a lot of attention. Repeatedly striking and retreating is a lot of extra actions, and you can't rely on the in-game AI for it. You need to micromanage that character, and likely neglect other members of the party.
Second, a way to hit hard enough for it to be worthwhile. A thief's backstab is the gold standard here.
Third, a way to surprise the enemy. Obviously, thief skirmishers will use stealth to sneak up on their foes.
Fourth, quick movement. You need to be able to retreat. Skirmishers are typically the first priority for any boots of speed you acquire.
Fifth, quick attacks. That weapon speed number actually matters, because getting it low means a better chance of you getting the first attack in. Fortunately, all of the melee weapons that single-class thieves can use are on the fast side, and high enchantment levels improve their speed further.
With swashbucklers, it's easy to make the mistake of thinking the AC bonus and lack of backstab means you should be a tank. No. You still can't wear a helmet, and it takes a lot of levels or epic gear before that AC bonus catches up with heavy armor. So then, you're still a skirmisher. You can't afford to ignore stealth - you still need to sneak up on enemies so they don't target you.
At epic levels, the situation changes. With UAI (heavy armor, helmets) for tanking and Whirlwind Attack for burst damage, swashbucklers get a lot better.
On multi-class fighter/thieves - one way to emphasize the class combination's potential is to build for role flexibility. Open with a backstab and stay in there to fight in melee. Fight in heavy armor but take it off when you need to disarm a trap. I got a lot out of these tricks with the protagonist of my no-spellcasting run.
Dual-class fighter-thieves have another option: they can build for super-powerful backstabs. After all, specialization bonuses get multiplied in a stab. I've done this with kensai-thieves; that can one-shot fire giants in the late game.
- Honestly, nothing tanks better than a bard, regardless of kit. Cast a lot of defensive spells that last longer or give more of it due to caster level (Stoneskin), walk in front of your enemies and start singing because those bonuses are better than missing your two-handed or katana. Using gear like Carsomyr only makes you more defensive in nature. Nothing a thief can do even compares to it, even with scrolls. And I did use scrolls.
- As for archer vs skirmisher: I'd say the archer thief is the lazy way to play. Invest in utility skills, have them shoot bows or throw daggers or the like. It's the skirmishing that I really enjoy and I think it's where the thief gets its greatest strength from.
I mostly agree with the rest. Swashbuckler only becomes good after level UAI. The lack of helmet is honestly worse than the lower AC. Crits are brutal and I've found that a thief can lose damage very quickly from just a few hits. I just don't get how people can think it's better than a F/T when even that class has to watch out with higher HP and a helmet.
-There are many characters who can be terrific tanks. The best I can recall playing was a Fighter/Mage/Cleric, but that may be
subjective.
-I'll requote jmerry's initial line in their response: " There are three fundamental combat roles a weapon-based character can take:"
A pure thief, including a Swashbuckler (until UAI) are best used as skirmishers. Jmerry explicitly (and eloquently IMHO) express
this.
-I haven't seen anyone say a Swashbuckler is better than a F/T. However, high level Swashbucklers can become one of the few
characters who can AC tank at least semi-successfully late game.
-Speaking of Fighter/Thief, the reason I love them is their versatility. They can be tanks, archers, or skirmishers at need.
Higher casting level means protective spells either last longer or you get more of it in comparison to other mages. Stoneskin especially is a powerful defensive spell for a bard for this reason. Not to mention every bard song will bestow some extra buff (or debuff) to the team, which mage classes don't have access to.
That being said, a bard is a very passive, defensive tank. Any other mage class will do more damage aside from the occasional Skull Trap.
For tanking? I'd still go with the bard. An FM is a powerful god of destruction who's supposed to hakai his way to victory. A bard is about empowering said FM to do that while he takes all the aggro.
Bring on fighter HLA like hardiness etc later on, and you don't even need your spells most of the time and can save them and avoid resting so much.
Bards are strong, but I don't quite see them doing better than an FM at anything that matters.
Picking Pockets.
Some spells don't have a caster level cap. Stoneskin and Skull trap are two examples and this is why they're far better in the hands of a bard that reaches lvl 40 than a F/M than can only reach lvl 20-31 mage level.
Don't get me wrong, the F/M is loads better than a bard in almost every conceivable way. Damage, versatility, combat, most spells, the amount of spells, access to higher level spells, etc. It's just that the bard has this one thing going for it and this one thing does make it a better tank imo.
From a previous 'best tank' thread.
- Children of the Night (Hexxat ability)
- Chaos of Battle (Priest of Tempus ability)
- Absorb Health (Blackguard ability)
- Lay On Hands (Paladin ability)
- Flaming Fists (Sun Soul Monk ability)
- Set Snare (Thief ability, caps at 21)
- Set Special Snare (Bounty Hunter ability, caps at 21)
- Hardiness (Warrior high-level ability)
- Symbol: Fear (Priest spell)
- Shaman dancing
- Melf's Acid Arrow (Mage spell, caps at 21)
- Hardiness (Wish option)
Also, this was a thread about thieves. How exactly did it get this far off the original topic?
Huh. I was wrong. Skull trap is just better than a fireball. No wonder those numbers were a lot higher. Same for Stoneskin.
And fair enough. You just haaaaad to start talking about the three roles of combat, eh?
This whole 'everyone needs to be just as good as their next door neighbor at everything or else it's horrible and unfair' mentality that's so pervasive these days - boring, utter nonsense.
Have some balls, creativity, learn to play a class or character that isn't a Mary Sue mouseclick everything to victory in 3 rounds. May as well run a party consisting of 5 Berzerker/mage clones and a ftr/mage/thief named John, Jon, Jonn, John2, Johnny, and Johnson.