Unlock PWs on multiplayer list for consoles

TomRotfl

Hey there, it has been a while since I have been writing something in here!
I am super active on Discord though, between the NWN Vault and NWNX channels, as well as on GitHub, where I report issues whenever I find one.

I have been quite busy in the development of my PW, and I am really satisfied with what we have achieved so far.

There is still a long road to perfection, but we have reached a level of stability, optimization and content quality which makes me proud of the team of developers that worked with me so far.

Now that I see the results of the hard work we all put in here, a question comes to my mind about consoles multiplayer PWs:

Is there in the plans the idea to consider unlocking the multiplayer list to all other PWs?

I remember that only 2 PWs were allowed in the beginning because NWN was just released on consoles, mobile devices were still to upgrade, and there were some requirements for a PW to be allowed on consoles, like the use of NWSync (which was quite new as a feature at that time), have a stable PW that could support high amount of players, etc.

Now, I believe that most of popular PWs have achieved these goals, and it would be fair to allow other PWs to be played on consoles.

What do you guys think?

TemplarDrake

So while this is a definite yes from me, I think this will probably never be a thing.

It has been asked for and debated several times over and unfortunately I think it is not as low effort as it may seem.
There has been no real answer on why and I doubt it will happen.

felipebsr

I vote yes, come on, Beamdog, why not? It's a win-win situation

Abraxsis

Though I don’t play via a console, I would welcome the potential growth to the player base of persistent worlds brought by providing a full list of PW’s to console gamers. This has the potential to grow the overall player base of Neverwinter Nights:EE in general though allowing console gamers easy access to the additional content of a variety of persistent worlds.

Proleric

I'm not sure what Beamdog's experience has been, but other game developers have told me that the console manufacturers make them jump through a lot of hoops before publication is permitted, with no exceptions for fan-made content.

That demands a disproportionate effort from both the developer and the amateur authors (not to mention censorship).

If that's the case here, the wonder is that any PWs have made it onto consoles.

felipebsr

Proleric wrote: »

I'm not sure what Beamdog's experience has been, but other game developers have told me that the console manufacturers make them jump through a lot of hoops before publication is permitted

It used to require a license to allow the game itself to be published on console game stores. If game is there already, then this is not needed.

Proleric

@felipebsr are you saying console manufacturers are now allowing fan-made content without vetting?

Can you give an example?

Felipefpl

I wonder how you mistook my name with felipebsr's?

Proleric

Felipefpl wrote: »

I wonder how you mistook my name with felipebsr's?

Hard to imagine

TarotRedhand

So you don't know of an example then @Felipefpl? Or do you?

TR

Proleric

TarotRedhand wrote: »

So you don't know of an example then @Felipefpl? Or do you?

TR

You should be asking @felipebsr - you just fell in the hole I dug - my bad

Balanor

JuliusBorisov wrote: »

The persistent worlds of Arelith and Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist will be available for Nintendo Switch and Xbox One players as part of multiplayer support for Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition.

We’re pleased that there is an enthusiastic community willing to welcome adventurers from these new platforms into their campaigns. We’re interested in exploring the possibility of making further persistent worlds available to console players. Please note, the Nintendo Switch and XBox One versions of Neverwinter Nights are only compatible with persistent worlds that support NWSync, and have a total download size of under 4GB.

I highlighted the applicable part to this topic in this Julius quote from several years ago. For anyone needing a translation to such an amazingly evasive statement the answer then, as is now, is: "It will never happen, but at least we're not actually going to tell you it will never happen!"

felipebsr

TarotRedhand wrote: »

So you don't know of an example then @Felipefpl? Or do you?

TR

TarotRedhand wrote: »

So you don't know of an example then @Felipefpl? Or do you?

TR

Perhaps

Proleric wrote: »

@felipebsr are you saying console manufacturers are now allowing fan-made content without vetting?

Can you give an example?

i said specifically about the license required for devs to publish on consoles. Perhaps it would be more productive if you provided examples of fan made content vetoed then connect to the PW issue originally posted here. Because PWs are not intrinsically fan made contents.

Proleric

@felipebsr This is a Neverwinter Nights forum. All the PWs for Neverwinter Nights are fan-made.

This thread has nothing to do with developer licenses.

It's about whether consoles allow fan-made content without vetting.

TomRotfl

Proleric wrote: »

@felipebsr are you saying console manufacturers are now allowing fan-made content without vetting?

Can you give an example?

They definitely do, the 2 PWs allowed so far ARE fan-made content. Beamdog has made the choice to select them based on some parameters I do ignore (probably population and direct connection with Beamdog staff maybe.. I mean, they know each other, that's it).
This means that it is definitely possible to post other PWs if they want to.
These PWs must meet the same list of requirements to be there, and this is why I don't feel right that all other PWs are excluded.

Proleric

Of course, the two PWs are fan-made, but very likely each was individually vetted.

It's not just about technical feasibility - vetting takes time and money.

We have a similar situation with SP modules - only a handful are showcased via NWSync. From what I've seen of that adoption process, it's fairly rigorous, so I wouldn't expect to see many more anytime soon.

FreshLemonBun

I agree with both Balanor and Proleric. In addition if I recall correctly the suggestion was that there was some kind of call for submissions but nobody knew what Beamdog was talking about. I have never assumed that there was a realistic intent to support an application procedure rather than wishful thinking if it gets popular and they have the resources they would like to consider it.

Taking the COVID pandemic's effect on all digital media engagement into account I don't believe I have ever seen any evidence of a considerable console population for NWN. Unless Beamdog, or either Arelith staff or Ravenloft staff can share data or evidence, then I see no reason to make the conclusion that there is a significant untapped population.

In a practical sense as the current evidence stands I only support one general reason for console access to persistent worlds. Do you want to allow access to a pw because a real flesh and blood friend wishes to play on your world? Or do you want to allow access to a pw because you believe it will become popular? I only support the first line of reasoning and consider the second line of reasoning as unsupported wishful thinking. On the assumption that an approval process would consume resources I do not see how the second line of reasoning can be justified in the reality we live in.

On the other hand I do believe that there ought to be access for everyone and at least an approval process for everyone. Unfortunately practical considerations weigh more heavily than what ought to be in a matter like this.

On the other-other-other hand, if you can make your pw more popular on PC than either Arelith or Ravenloft then Beamdog ought to give your pw fair consideration. That would be somewhat consistent with their previous behavior.

felipebsr

Okay, but is the official Beamdog statement that more PW are not on consoles because they need to be vetted?
Because, you know, they have the source-code of the game. Spawning all custom content in a area for checking, a algorithm to check violations to their PEG 12 classifications are not really hard to do. I'd like to see a post from them regarding this subject, it's of their interest too getting more people to buy their game and play.

FreshLemonBun

If you go digging you can probably find some of the threads about it near the end of 2019 with their official responses but I'll just go off memory. So if I remember correctly they were phrasing it as the first two and that they wanted to wait and then look at others. As mentioned nobody else knew about this or what they were talking about, every other server seemed to be in the dark, so everyone assumed they just approached those two. So just to be honest I'm not sure their official statements mean much in this context. It has been 28 months, right? And I don't think anyone that was there is really surprised that nothing has changed.

As for it being in their interest to make the game popular I don't think anyone can really say that without some kind of evidence to support their assumption. As far as I know none of the parties involved have shared or commented on the console related metrics, but the online server list never blew up in player population except for COVID lockdowns. So without better evidence what we have strongly suggests: not worth it.

Even if it's not satisfactory I do think people are due an updated official response on this in 2022. Even if the vetting process takes too much to be worthwhile as some have assumed just posting a message on their website or forum should cost nothing.

TarotRedhand

@FreshLemonBun said - just posting a message on their website or forum should cost nothing.

Except for @JuliusBorisov's wages

TR

ElGrillo

I haven't owned a console in a long time. I'd be interested in hearing about custom/player-made content on other console titles. Is it a thing? Are there console titles where players can build their own gameworlds for each other and use custom content (aka mods) on those gameworlds? I literally have no idea. There aren't even really that many games out there like NWN (with its multiplayer support combined with a packaged world-building software, dedicated server software, and huge mod-ability) as far as I know?

I run a PW too and would love to see console support open up. So I'm genuinely interested in this if anyone familiar with consoles can chime in with some data.

Ɲ????Ʀ????

Please note, the Nintendo Switch and XBox One versions of Neverwinter Nights are only compatible with persistent worlds that support NWSync, and have a total download size of under 4GB.

Personally I think this is the biggest barrier for consoles and probably why it would vetted. That and their typically anti-consumer practices. Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo tend to mostly be similar in this regard. Android doesn't have this restriction. iOS is also pretty restrictive about the data and amount allowed on your device. iOS and Android don't have any multiplayer server restrictions iirc. No toolset is included either similar to consoles.

4GB is pretty restrictive depending on what you use and adding any content from the community like cep or project q will quickly put you over this limit. That is in addition to any other barriers - knowing how to setup a web server for nwsync for example.