There's some interesting discussion on here which has veered somewhat away from sexuality in the Realms per se but raises some interesting questions about how to go about implementing inclusive policies to ensure a level of fairness for everyone.
The (sad) fact is that for whatever reason some people feel uncomfortable with sexuality different from their own. I'm not going to address the (perceived) rights, wrongs, whys & wherefores of this situation as it's been debated enough and I think we can all agree that brow beating anyone with a strongly opposing view to your own tends to do nothing other than enflame passions and cause your opponent to dig their heals in; in an ideal world it wouldn't be an issue but it is so how would you go about implementing something like 'alternative' romances given that in the context of the world they're entirely acceptable and normal but not necessarily considered so for those choosing to enter the world. In PnP game play it's simple, if it makes you uncomfortable your gaming group agree not to include it, but for a game like Baldur's Gate with preset characters and interactions is it more prudent to:
a) have the user opt into all the romance options before gameplay starts b) have the user opt into only those romance paths they wish to follow before gameplay starts c) have the user opt out of all the romance options before gameplay starts d) have the user opt out of those romance paths they have no desire to follow before gameplay starts or e) maintain the current status quo
Sensible thoughts, please.
(BTW, I've thought long and hard about getting further involved in this debate and considered the wording of this post too, I hope it doesn't offend anyone, that's not the business I'm in. Also, personally I'm fine with the status quo but I'd also favour opt outs as I think it probably isn't an issue for the majority of players either).
Just curious, do you guys think Montaron and Xzar are supposed to be gay? Especially Xzar seemed to me quite like a bad stereotype back then when I had them in my party.
@BaldursCat If I could opt out of romances I didn't want before the game starts or as the characters were met, I'd do it. If I'm playing a gay character, I don't care to have Jaheira, Viconia, and Aerie all crushing on me in BG2 so I'd opt out of them.
@Riolathel A lot of the appeal comes from the fact that, for romanceable NPCs, most of the content that comes with them is in the romance plotline itself. Which means, if you're not romancing them, you're not getting the full experience.
An error I intend to correct, personally. I think there ought to be more "friendship" NPC plotlines, and it should be possible to have an NPC in your party, turn them down as a romantic partner, and still be friends.
My current project is an NPC that, if you break her heart, settles for being your friend and does so gladly. (And she does this whether you're male or female, for what it's worth.)
To everyone: Glad to see the thread back on course, more or less. I was hoping I wouldn't have to intervene, and in the end I didn't. That said, try to refrain from discussion of the actual intimacies of mating. We do have minors wandering about, after all (and although I'm sure they know more about these things than we think, society likes to pretend it's important to maintain a level of decorum when in the presence of impressionable youth).
That sounds like a great idea Aosaw.. I always feel uncomfortable when NPCs are flirting with me in a game whether it be male or female. I didnt realize i was missing so much because i just never tried romancing; too busy slaying beasts
@calmar Mont and Xzar actually hate each other.. i remember reading that somewhere. They've been hired by the same person and are required to cooperate with one another
Mostly, the romances are there to add depth to the characters. Aerie is completely one-dimensional if you don't pursue her (although to be fair her romance is fairly one-dimensional anyway). I've heard good things about Viconia, but never tried it.
@Forse: I understand that gay people want to voice their sexual orientation. But I still think gay parades are not the right way to do this. So I should be looking at a bunch of same-sex people kissing each other and walking around with naked breasts and whatnot? I do not think this is a good way to express your sexual orientation. Granted, I can't immediately think of other alternatives. But I'll be honest: I'd be weirded out seeing such a parade. Same goes for other fields of the LGTB community, such as drag queens and such. It's not something I want to see. I also shouldn't feel forced to accept and see such things just to avoid being stigmatized either. Let's just say: to each their own. I am tolerant and do respect, but I also have my own limits and boundaries. No offense to you.
@Kitteh_On_A_Cloud I think the extrovert nature of these parades serves a good purpose, as it wasn't so long ago that being gay was considered a crime, in many countries that are happily now less ignorant.
However, it isn't as if the conversion from ignorance and bigotry is complete. So it is important, I think, that society can have these celebrations. How many people still grow up in fear? shame? of who they are. We need to move beyond that.
@Kitteh_On_A_Cloud Also, if gays just faded into the background and never talked about themselves, it would be easy for people who don't like them to claim that they don't exist/make it seem more marginalized than it already is. Having gay Pride parades is one way to tell people, "Yes, we're here, and we exist, and we're not willing to be shoved into the background and marginalized". Sadly, there are quite a lot of people who would want gay people to shut up and die (and sadly, there is evidence that the African countries like Uganda and Liberia which want to make being gay an offense with a death sentence have been taking money and direction from American Christian Evangelical movements, so I'd have to dispute that people don't want this) and never be around any more, for a variety of reasons.
@LadyRhian and @Moomintroll: Might be true. But that doesn't change the fact that I don't like such parades. I think it's indeed about 'being there', but in a showy way. Might just be my negative experiences with such parades, though. I still think there are better ways to show your sexuality than to dress up and fling your underwear on the public roads. Just my opinion.
I am of the opinion that her romance is probably the biggest example of a fanservice romance in any bioware game ever. And considering its the first game bioware did romances in, is a pretty big statement to make.
It is horrible.
In BG1 the intended role for her (and Khalid) is to step into the role of surrogate parent(s) for the CHARNAME in place of Gorion, if he died. There isn't a lot of dialogue in BG1 in terms of character development to confirm this, but if we assume that it is true, then she is essentially attempting to romance her ward in BG2. I will leave that to sink in for a moment.
Now let's think about the Age difference also. CHARNAME is about 18 to 20 years old in game, and in some species that makes him still a child. As an elf for example he would be the elven equivalent of 5 years old thereabouts. Jaheira is significantly older than him, by an order of years making her old enough to possibly be his grandmother. Let THAT sink in for a moment too.
Now consider Khalid. He has literally been brutally murdered right before the game starts. And she only finds this out in the prologue of the actual game. So she only begins to grieve and mourn for her beloved at that moment. She has not accepted his death, she has not recovered from it. And having been with him for so long, her recovery process from his death ought to be a lengthy one. At the very least, more than a week. And yet, within the week of her beloved being murdered in a horrific and brutal way, she is all over CHARNAME. Obstentsibly, her ward.
Now I know the book apparently explains that away by saying that Khalid and Jaheira were having "problems" and she didn't really love him anymore by the time he died. But honestly that to me just seems like a poor attempt to excuse a really terribly written and implemented romance. Also we don't know any of this from the games. As far as we know in BG1 she and Khalid were (literally!) inseperable and very much in love. And none of this is dealt with in a very significant way in BG2. You can not tell me she was over Khalid, or that CHARNAME was anything more than a shallow rebound for her.
The only reason she is romancable, as near as I can tell, is because she was popular in the first game. If they hadn't made Imoen your SISTER for plot reasons, the romance would have been her and not Jaheira I am certain. Given the fact that an Imoen romance mod exists (sic:it's terrible too btw lol) for her in spite of the fact that she is our sister, supports me here - that Jaheira is only a romance because she was the only female character from BG1 that was popular that was available for it.
I just can't be more critical of the BG Jaheira romance. I rate it worse than Aerie's romance; and boy is Aerie's bad.
I love Viconia though. But the age difference problem rears it's ugly head in that one too.
I am of the opinion that her romance is probably the biggest example of a fanservice romance in any bioware game ever. And considering its the first game bioware did romances in, is a pretty big statement to make.
It is horrible.
In BG1 the intended role for her (and Khalid) is to step into the role of surrogate parent(s) for the CHARNAME in place of Gorion, if he died. There isn't a lot of dialogue in BG1 in terms of character development to confirm this, but if we assume that it is true, then she is essentially attempting to romance her ward in BG2. I will leave that to sink in for a moment.
Now let's think about the Age difference also. CHARNAME is about 18 to 20 years old in game, and in some species that makes him still a child. As an elf for example he would be the elven equivalent of 5 years old thereabouts. Jaheira is significantly older than him, by an order of years making her old enough to possibly be his grandmother. Let THAT sink in for a moment too.
Now consider Khalid. He has literally been brutally murdered right before the game starts. And she only finds this out in the prologue of the actual game. So she only begins to grieve and mourn for her beloved at that moment. She has not accepted his death, she has not recovered from it. And having been with him for so long, her recovery process from his death ought to be a lengthy one. At the very least, more than a week. And yet, within the week of her beloved being murdered in a horrific and brutal way, she is all over CHARNAME. Obstentsibly, her ward.
Now I know the book apparently explains that away by saying that Khalid and Jaheira were having "problems" and she didn't really love him anymore by the time he died. But honestly that to me just seems like a poor attempt to excuse a really terribly written and implemented romance. Also we don't know any of this from the games. As far as we know in BG1 she and Khalid were (literally!) inseperable and very much in love. And none of this is dealt with in a very significant way in BG2. You can not tell me she was over Khalid, or that CHARNAME was anything more than a shallow rebound for her.
The only reason she is romancable, as near as I can tell, is because she was popular in the first game. If they hadn't made Imoen your SISTER for plot reasons, the romance would have been her and not Jaheira I am certain. Given the fact that an Imoen romance mod exists (sic:it's terrible too btw lol) for her in spite of the fact that she is our sister, supports me here - that Jaheira is only a romance because she was the only female character from BG1 that was popular that was available for it.
I just can't be more critical of the BG Jaheira romance. I rate it worse than Aerie's romance; and boy is Aerie's bad.
I love Viconia though. But the age difference problem rears it's ugly head in that one too.
For real? I totally disagree.
Firstly I will confess my ignorance on how the realms normally treats this, but I don't see how you compare elven and human years like that. My vague knowledge of the Drizzt novels and even LoTR suggests that this wouldn't be frowned upon as they are both mature and consenting adults. I think part of the repulsion that your painting on to that pairing comes from a human perspective, where such different ages would have huge differences in physical ageing.
The way I read the situation is that Jaheira is having a hard time dealing with the loss of Khalid and seeks some comfort in charname, they could have chosen to spell that out more clearly but I don't think the dialogue excludes that logic.
Plus I don't think Jaheira ever talks to you like a guardian (even if she is definitely described as one), when you meet isn't her attitude more like "Gorian said your ok so we'll trust you for now." I could definitely be wrong on that one. But that isn't in any way a maternal or over-protective response to meeting up with the ward of a dead friend.
I am of the opinion that her romance is probably the biggest example of a fanservice romance in any bioware game ever. And considering its the first game bioware did romances in, is a pretty big statement to make.
I beg to differ, Jaheira's romance is the only one which is technically canon, as such it isn't fanservice.
As I said in the games there isn't a whole lot to go on with it, so we can only go with what we know about it. And what we know... doesn't look good.
And yes you can compare ages like that lol. It is canon in DnD that Half Elves and Elves live longer than Humans and thus age and mature more slowly. Thus a 20 year old elf would still be considered in early to mid childhood. It's why when you play Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2 as an Elf the age starts at 120, because an Elf "comes of age" at 100 to 110.
You can't judge from our own perspective which would be "oh he is 20 so it is fine". You have to judge from the perspective of the characters. Jaheira as a half elf would be old enough to be his mother at the least, and an Elven CHARNAME is still culturally and maturity wise a child by elven standards. So it absolutely would not be fine.
Of course from the perspective of a human, if CHARNAME is human. Then the age isn't a factor in - in an underage sense.
Personally I think the problem is that the romances in BG are not at all fleshed out enough for any of them to be "realistic" or to make sense, especially when compared to romances in more modern games.
And as I said the "canon" which is the books attempts to explain all this away, poorly, by making out Khalid and Jaheira were falling out of love by the end of BG1. I think it is merely a poor explanation, for a pretty shoddy romance.
You are just sorta expected to accept that Jaheira is suddenly a viable romance option, without any meaningful attempt at explaning away all the background questions that you may have.
I guess my problem is the fact that with Jaheira's romance there are very real questions I have regarding her viability as an LI that don't get answered by the game; and you are pretty much required to either ignore those questions, or MetaGame to explain them away. And I have never liked using metagame information to explain away plot holes, and other assorted plot related questions.
@Riolathel A lot of the appeal comes from the fact that, for romanceable NPCs, most of the content that comes with them is in the romance plotline itself. Which means, if you're not romancing them, you're not getting the full experience.
An error I intend to correct, personally. I think there ought to be more "friendship" NPC plotlines, and it should be possible to have an NPC in your party, turn them down as a romantic partner, and still be friends.
My current project is an NPC that, if you break her heart, settles for being your friend and does so gladly. (And she does this whether you're male or female, for what it's worth.)
EXCELLENT. This is the sort of thing I'd like to see in the BG series. It's what made the Mass Effect series so great in my experience; you could develop a rewarding and intriguing relationship with any member of your crew without necessarily pursuing a romantic path with them.
As I said I was speaking if a PC is an Elven PC in both posts. I used it as an example.
I also said in the second post; if he was a human then that particular issue wouldnt be an issue.
So what you said...is somewhat redundant. And in argeement with what I said. Even though you have framed it as disagreement.
EDIT: I said "if a PC is elven then you can't judge him by human standards, you should judge him by Elven standards." so why would I then go on to say you should judge a human PC by elven standards if I am saying you shouldn't judge an elven PC by human standards?
I don't really see how the too young argument can possibly apply to the player. In the real world we restrict minors from sexual relations on the basis that they aren't yet mature enough to make properly informed decisions and understand the consequences of those decisions.
However, the player character has to deal with a huge number of complex issues while playing the game. Who to trust, who to help, what tactics to use for fights, coming to terms with being a Bhaalspawn, etc. If we acknowledge that they are mature enough to deal with all of that, then I don't see how we can seriously argue that they aren't mature enough to choose a partner.
Jaheira is actually my favorite romance. Aerie and Viconia seemed even less plausible. They are more shallow and unrealistic than Jaheira. In my opinion.
I haven't tried Anomen, but I can imagine it's got some rich, realistic dialog, despite him being kind of an ass.
TBH I don't really think any of the vanilla romances being that great especially compared with some of the NPC mod romances, and/or more recent romances in other games.
Personally I think the problem is that the romances in BG are not at all fleshed out enough for any of them to be "realistic" or to make sense, especially when compared to romances in more modern games.
Ah, but t he romances are what made Baldur's Gate Shadows of Amn unique at the time so what you have to ask yourself is: if BGII hadn't included romance paths would games developed later have featured them at all? You also have to ask yourself: were gamers clamouring for romance options before they appeared in BGII or did this thirst for romance come once gamers realised it could be included and could be another way to become immersed in a world. Also, I think it a little unfair to compare the implementation Baldur's Gate romances with those of later games because as I've already said - and you've already said too - they were the first, so very much treading new ground and there was also the matter of the technological limitations of the time.
And as I said the "canon" which is the books attempts to explain all this away, poorly, by making out Khalid and Jaheira were falling out of love by the end of BG1. I think it is merely a poor explanation, for a pretty shoddy romance.
You are just sorta expected to accept that Jaheira is suddenly a viable romance option, without any meaningful attempt at explaning away all the background questions that you may have.
Wikepedia tells me that the first novel was released six months after the original BG game release but I don't think it's unfair to assume that it was written some considerable time before release. In all likelihood, Philip Athans wrote the first installment during the development of the first game and received a very basis precis of the plot and was told to run with it so, did the Jaheira / Bhaalspawn romance come from the game developers to start off or as an offshoot of the novel plotline? I'd say the latter. I still doubt the game romance is fanservice given how, as you've pointed out yourself, Khalid & Jaheira are portrayed in game and how poorly the novels were received. In the first game there's no hint of a romance so there's no reason for gamers to have any huge desire for one with Jaheira. I suppose the only way you'd find out for sure whether there was a 'demand' for the romance is to go back and look at something like the historical archives of The Attic or Silverymoon's Attic as was, which aside from the modding communities was perhaps the original and only Baldur's Gate fanfic community and existed long before FanFiction.net or AO3 were even dreamed about, a community which certain members of the original writing and development team did have an active involvement in.
With regard to the questions the romance raises, I'm not sure it was thought too hard about when implemented because it is only one element of the game not the sole focus. Personally I'm quite happy with meta-gaming and using my imagination on that score.
Comments
Bacon.
That is all.
The (sad) fact is that for whatever reason some people feel uncomfortable with sexuality different from their own. I'm not going to address the (perceived) rights, wrongs, whys & wherefores of this situation as it's been debated enough and I think we can all agree that brow beating anyone with a strongly opposing view to your own tends to do nothing other than enflame passions and cause your opponent to dig their heals in; in an ideal world it wouldn't be an issue but it is so how would you go about implementing something like 'alternative' romances given that in the context of the world they're entirely acceptable and normal but not necessarily considered so for those choosing to enter the world. In PnP game play it's simple, if it makes you uncomfortable your gaming group agree not to include it, but for a game like Baldur's Gate with preset characters and interactions is it more prudent to:
a) have the user opt into all the romance options before gameplay starts
b) have the user opt into only those romance paths they wish to follow before gameplay starts
c) have the user opt out of all the romance options before gameplay starts
d) have the user opt out of those romance paths they have no desire to follow before gameplay starts
or
e) maintain the current status quo
Sensible thoughts, please.
(BTW, I've thought long and hard about getting further involved in this debate and considered the wording of this post too, I hope it doesn't offend anyone, that's not the business I'm in. Also, personally I'm fine with the status quo but I'd also favour opt outs as I think it probably isn't an issue for the majority of players either).
I don't play a game to get laid. I play a game to have fun.
I've never romanced a single character in BG and never plan to.
I don't see why it is such a big issue it is just a game
A lot of the appeal comes from the fact that, for romanceable NPCs, most of the content that comes with them is in the romance plotline itself. Which means, if you're not romancing them, you're not getting the full experience.
An error I intend to correct, personally. I think there ought to be more "friendship" NPC plotlines, and it should be possible to have an NPC in your party, turn them down as a romantic partner, and still be friends.
My current project is an NPC that, if you break her heart, settles for being your friend and does so gladly. (And she does this whether you're male or female, for what it's worth.)
To everyone:
Glad to see the thread back on course, more or less. I was hoping I wouldn't have to intervene, and in the end I didn't. That said, try to refrain from discussion of the actual intimacies of mating. We do have minors wandering about, after all (and although I'm sure they know more about these things than we think, society likes to pretend it's important to maintain a level of decorum when in the presence of impressionable youth).
@calmar Mont and Xzar actually hate each other.. i remember reading that somewhere. They've been hired by the same person and are required to cooperate with one another
Mostly, the romances are there to add depth to the characters. Aerie is completely one-dimensional if you don't pursue her (although to be fair her romance is fairly one-dimensional anyway). I've heard good things about Viconia, but never tried it.
However, it isn't as if the conversion from ignorance and bigotry is complete. So it is important, I think, that society can have these celebrations. How many people still grow up in fear? shame? of who they are. We need to move beyond that.
http://gawker.com/5439886/
I couldn't disagree more.
I am of the opinion that her romance is probably the biggest example of a fanservice romance in any bioware game ever. And considering its the first game bioware did romances in, is a pretty big statement to make.
It is horrible.
In BG1 the intended role for her (and Khalid) is to step into the role of surrogate parent(s) for the CHARNAME in place of Gorion, if he died.
There isn't a lot of dialogue in BG1 in terms of character development to confirm this, but if we assume that it is true, then she is essentially attempting to romance her ward in BG2. I will leave that to sink in for a moment.
Now let's think about the Age difference also. CHARNAME is about 18 to 20 years old in game, and in some species that makes him still a child. As an elf for example he would be the elven equivalent of 5 years old thereabouts.
Jaheira is significantly older than him, by an order of years making her old enough to possibly be his grandmother. Let THAT sink in for a moment too.
Now consider Khalid. He has literally been brutally murdered right before the game starts. And she only finds this out in the prologue of the actual game. So she only begins to grieve and mourn for her beloved at that moment.
She has not accepted his death, she has not recovered from it. And having been with him for so long, her recovery process from his death ought to be a lengthy one. At the very least, more than a week.
And yet, within the week of her beloved being murdered in a horrific and brutal way, she is all over CHARNAME. Obstentsibly, her ward.
Now I know the book apparently explains that away by saying that Khalid and Jaheira were having "problems" and she didn't really love him anymore by the time he died. But honestly that to me just seems like a poor attempt to excuse a really terribly written and implemented romance.
Also we don't know any of this from the games. As far as we know in BG1 she and Khalid were (literally!) inseperable and very much in love. And none of this is dealt with in a very significant way in BG2.
You can not tell me she was over Khalid, or that CHARNAME was anything more than a shallow rebound for her.
The only reason she is romancable, as near as I can tell, is because she was popular in the first game. If they hadn't made Imoen your SISTER for plot reasons, the romance would have been her and not Jaheira I am certain.
Given the fact that an Imoen romance mod exists (sic:it's terrible too btw lol) for her in spite of the fact that she is our sister, supports me here - that Jaheira is only a romance because she was the only female character from BG1 that was popular that was available for it.
I just can't be more critical of the BG Jaheira romance. I rate it worse than Aerie's romance; and boy is Aerie's bad.
I love Viconia though. But the age difference problem rears it's ugly head in that one too.
For real? I totally disagree.
Firstly I will confess my ignorance on how the realms normally treats this, but I don't see how you compare elven and human years like that. My vague knowledge of the Drizzt novels and even LoTR suggests that this wouldn't be frowned upon as they are both mature and consenting adults. I think part of the repulsion that your painting on to that pairing comes from a human perspective, where such different ages would have huge differences in physical ageing.
The way I read the situation is that Jaheira is having a hard time dealing with the loss of Khalid and seeks some comfort in charname, they could have chosen to spell that out more clearly but I don't think the dialogue excludes that logic.
Plus I don't think Jaheira ever talks to you like a guardian (even if she is definitely described as one), when you meet isn't her attitude more like "Gorian said your ok so we'll trust you for now." I could definitely be wrong on that one. But that isn't in any way a maternal or over-protective response to meeting up with the ward of a dead friend.
And yes you can compare ages like that lol. It is canon in DnD that Half Elves and Elves live longer than Humans and thus age and mature more slowly. Thus a 20 year old elf would still be considered in early to mid childhood.
It's why when you play Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2 as an Elf the age starts at 120, because an Elf "comes of age" at 100 to 110.
You can't judge from our own perspective which would be "oh he is 20 so it is fine". You have to judge from the perspective of the characters.
Jaheira as a half elf would be old enough to be his mother at the least, and an Elven CHARNAME is still culturally and maturity wise a child by elven standards. So it absolutely would not be fine.
Of course from the perspective of a human, if CHARNAME is human. Then the age isn't a factor in - in an underage sense.
Personally I think the problem is that the romances in BG are not at all fleshed out enough for any of them to be "realistic" or to make sense, especially when compared to romances in more modern games.
And as I said the "canon" which is the books attempts to explain all this away, poorly, by making out Khalid and Jaheira were falling out of love by the end of BG1. I think it is merely a poor explanation, for a pretty shoddy romance.
You are just sorta expected to accept that Jaheira is suddenly a viable romance option, without any meaningful attempt at explaning away all the background questions that you may have.
I guess my problem is the fact that with Jaheira's romance there are very real questions I have regarding her viability as an LI that don't get answered by the game; and you are pretty much required to either ignore those questions, or MetaGame to explain them away.
And I have never liked using metagame information to explain away plot holes, and other assorted plot related questions.
As I said I was speaking if a PC is an Elven PC in both posts. I used it as an example.
I also said in the second post; if he was a human then that particular issue wouldnt be an issue.
So what you said...is somewhat redundant. And in argeement with what I said. Even though you have framed it as disagreement.
EDIT:
I said "if a PC is elven then you can't judge him by human standards, you should judge him by Elven standards." so why would I then go on to say you should judge a human PC by elven standards if I am saying you shouldn't judge an elven PC by human standards?
That makes zero sense.
Thats okay. lol.
Just remember - I am not Edwin. I am not a contrarian. :-P lol.
However, the player character has to deal with a huge number of complex issues while playing the game. Who to trust, who to help, what tactics to use for fights, coming to terms with being a Bhaalspawn, etc. If we acknowledge that they are mature enough to deal with all of that, then I don't see how we can seriously argue that they aren't mature enough to choose a partner.
Not necessarily no. I just think that more/better context should be provided.
I haven't tried Anomen, but I can imagine it's got some rich, realistic dialog, despite him being kind of an ass.
IMO, Viconia's is the least horrible. lol.
With regard to the questions the romance raises, I'm not sure it was thought too hard about when implemented because it is only one element of the game not the sole focus. Personally I'm quite happy with meta-gaming and using my imagination on that score.