Are you for real mate? you didnt fall out from a hard concrete stairway? Voices in your head told you about evil pop music....and that sex is fun!!?!?!?!?
@LadyRhain can yell about weird stuff for like 100 years straight and still dont come up to your level of retard mate......
Am gonna tell you a secret mate, and listen... you are sexist and stupid
but good news!!!!
There is a place in the world where your kind of society lives on.... its called Afghanistan
Yeah... I'm thankful for being born in the 21st century where I wasn't destined for the kitchen with a passel of children in tow. I'm surprised such thinly-veiled chauvanism is permitted here >:-\
@Aosaw, do you know if Vanilla forums supports invite-only groups or sub-forums? I enjoy these kinds of discussions, sans-trolling, where we can speak in peace. If such a thing is supported, would it be possible for us to form a group? We would be able to talk, the trolls won't have to bother, everybody wins!
I know you guys are busy with the raging error/glitch/bug threads, so no hurries
@Medivh1234 You missed the part where Greek male on male sexuality was a well-known part of their culture, and Roman Emperors (except for Claudius) had male lovers. The Emperor Hadrian (a well known lover of Greek culture) had a long-term relation with a male lover named Antinous. Opposition to homosexuality and homosexual sex only started in the Roman Empire after Theodosius I. who had converted to Christianity. But there were still plenty of same-sex male brothels who existed and paid taxes to the state for another 128 years after that point (until 518).
Samurai culture also allowed for male-male same sex relations between fellow Samurai. Since I have already shown that your assertion that "And while some few cultures, usally small ones tolerated somewhat "unnormal" sexual behavior this is a small... small minority..." (Greek and Roman cultures were small? Ancient China and Japan were small cultures? You sound like you have no idea what you are talking about.
As for the young men in the Greek army, it was the older men doing the shagging. That was part of the tradition in Greek Culture. The older man took the younger under his wing and initiated him in various ways. Including into sex. Greek culture was that it was shameful for an older man to be penetrated by his young lover. But apparently, it still happened.
@MedullaOblongata I hate how these days raising the children, the most important and the hardest job in the world, is just seen as the bottom.
I think women have every right to strive for their own careers, but raising children is the most important and the hardest job in the world. For people to promote it as some pathetic thing that loser mothers do who can't get a job is just unfair doodoo.
To call raising children chauvanism brought on by the men is unfair. On us and yourself.
There is no chavanism here, you just don't understand that raising children isn't the pathetic dead end they brainwash you into thinking.
They want women in the workforce because they make more money that way. They want to convince us that raising children is for losers and to either a: not have any children or b: toss it up between children and career.
I'm not saying the children aren't the man's responsbility, they are the man's problem too. But what I'm saying is that, although I encourage women to do what they want, raising children should not be regarded as pathetic low for nobody except stupid people with no qualifications or an education.
@Ward I will only say one thing here. Yeah, it's such an important job that so many men don't decide to let their wives be the ones working and stay home and be the stay at home Dad and do all the child-rearing instead.
Another thread to add to the pile. When are you people going to stop illustrating the difference between a straight person and a gay person. For people who are so desperate to be normal, some people go out of their way for it to matter. We do not care about your sexuality and we do not want to talk about the orientation of fictional D&D game characterss.
Nobody wants to have a constructive conversation about sexuality because NOBODY CARES. Live and let live.
Secondly, on a related note, I noticed in one of the earlier year replies from Ed, it was implied that homosexuality and "other" sexuality is not considered with any great horror or interest in the Realms. Is there any sort of prejudice at all towards people whose sexualities are not the "Usual" ones (asexuals, polysexuals, bisexuals, etc.).
I think you're either obsessive about the fictional world, LadyRhian, or pathetic to impose your own insecurities about society relating to sexuality on a game. Let this end. I don't know if you're gay or even a woman, but regardless, whatever issues you have must be separate from here.
I am not trying to be rude, but you and several other people's obnoxious desire to furthur inject your social views into a game forum is getting very annoying. Once again, nobody cares about your orientation here.
I think it's pretty funny how you state that 'nobody cares' yet you are trying to monopolize this thread anyway. Seems like someone secretly does care a whole lot.
And for the record, I care as well and I don't see how this topic should be prohibited from being discussed in this forum. If someone doesn't care about it then don't read it.
@MedullaOblongata I shall summon @Tanthalas. This forum is getting out there when posters start calling each other ableist slurs. I'd close it myself, being a mod, but I am too close to the subject, so I'll call for Tanthalas instead.
@Ward It's a sexist assumption, but it doesn't make you a sexist in and of itself.
What does make you sexist though, is your willingness to ignore a woman's autonomy in favour of some out-dated fever dream of the 1950s golden age where women were denied professional education, careers and control over their own bodies/sexuality. All based on the assumption that women aren't fit to deal with the outside world and must be sheltered from it by men.
What is @trinit talking about? He's talking about your hilarious persecution complex. Maybe you're having trouble understanding that just because people disagree with your reactionary opinions, doesn't mean they are in any way limiting your ability to express them (Hint: they couldn't even if they wanted to, unless they are a moderator). The irony is that you are the one who can't let people be, apparently. You always find a way to make the conversation be about you you YOU!
I'm sure you'll accuse me misrepresenting you again. Which might just be true, considering what a hard time you seem to be having at properly expressing yourself. It might also help if you didn't change your position every second post.
@MedullaOblongata What are you talking about leave you alone??? I'm tired of being ganged up by all you people when I'm just trying to understand reasoning.
You strongly implied that raising children is some deadbeat job. Holy.
@LadyRhian There are plenty of stay at home dads. It's an important job, but the stereotype is that the woman is far more nuturing and the man is far more earning. Ha. But that may of been true, but it doesn't always be true.
I can't read the topic at the moment, but from what I saw by glancing it just delete the inflammatory posts. I don't think that this subject should be something tabu on the board.
@klatu That is a stereotype. Women did have careers. Women did have control of their own bodies. Women's bodies and sexuality are STILL manipulated, except now they're being told to use their bodies however they like. Back then they were told not to use their bodies however they like.
You represent a stereotype that women did nothing in the 1950s except wipe up kiddy vomit. For somebody who is so worried about women being put in their place, you fail to see how women AND men are put in their place now today.
I said nothing about a woman's ability to forge their own individual path. I said that in the 1950s, women had a certain place. That doesn't mean women did nothing except raise children and saying that raising children is for the horribly uneducated is insulting.
@Ward Funny how that works. Did you ever think that the problem isn't other people? Maybe it's in the way you word your responses, and the assumptions you seem to make. Because honestly, the way you respond to people doesn't seem to be making you friends here.
Roman culture promoted rape, i dont see that as tolerant. Greek a bit less but much the same. Both Male dominant cultures with strong diffrences between City and Country so too say. Now that what you called "culture" i call child abuse as i assume no choice was given. China and Japan was much more tolerant but for men only. Women did not have much choice.
And i dont understand that post about lying....
"I belive your lying, i think if Ed Greenwood basicly banned homosexuality from the entire Forgotten realms universe you react with a bit more than "ok well thats his choice, and thats, that" And am talking about a BAN, homosexuality dont EXIST in forgotten realms, you cant be homosexual... EVER..."
Was it this you are refering too? in that case his post says nothing about your reaction to a worldwide ban
To move things back on-topic, I think it would be interesting to analyze how sexuality affects gender roles in the Realms. We all see the disclaimer at character creation that your sex doesn't have any effect on your advancement, but does that actually hold true in the "reality" of the setting? How do female characters in Realms literature compare to males, in terms of not only prominence in the setting, but also development and conformity to common stereotypes? We have already established that there is very little presence of homosexual gender roles in Realms cultures, but is that due to the fictional cultures themselves, or the simple bias of the authors?
I so wish that I was more knowledgeable about Forgotten Realms, because I'd love to have this conversation. (Or read others having it... but little chance of that, I see.) When BG originally came out, it wasn't common that a game offered the chance of playing a female protagonist. I was really impressed by it, and actually pondered about it (gender representations in BG2) a great deal during my studies. I didn't much touch Forgotten Realms lore, except for a bit about the drow culture in relation to Viconia; I had to focus on the game side of things.
If there was a block button, I'd wine and dine the hell out of it right now.
Anyways, I am going to forward this post to my GM. We had both been in the dark about this subject for a while, and it will help clear up a lot of things for us n_n
@Ward Funny how that works. Did you ever think that the problem isn't other people? Maybe it's in the way you word your responses, and the assumptions you seem to make. Because honestly, the way you respond to people doesn't seem to be making you friends here.
@Medivh1234 Please stop changing the subject and moving the goalposts. We are talking about accepting homosexual relationships and your original assertion that most/all religions condemned such and were against it and your second, unsupported assertion that it was only accepted in a vanishingly small number of small and isolated cultures. You have been proven wrong on both points, and now you are just whining. Trying to drag in rape and child abuse (the Greek youths would have been older than 15 and younger than their early to middle 20's- not child abuse) is ridiculous. It's like saying that heterosexual rape somehow invalidates that the majority of marriages in the US are heterosexual. It doesn't.
And no, you accused me of lying about what he said, so I linked to the post where he said it. QED. And as for lying about supporting him if he said there was no homosexuality in the Realms, you're wrong again. One of my friends was in a campaign run by her boyfriend, where the dominant religion was a horse God and horse Goddess. The religion stated that horses were better than humans, and centaurs were better than humans, having horse parts, but below actual horses. One of the duties of the worshippers of the deities Barabek and Baratekay (the name of the deities) was to keep your horse "satisfied", and yes, he meant sexually. My friend was playing an Anti-Paladin and after one adventure, she got the requisite harness and whatnot, and "Satisfied" her stallion, leaving her unable to walk for a few days. Did I like this world? No, I did not (and I didn't even have to play in it!). But it was his world, and that's the way he designed it. (and worshippers of Barabek and Baratekay got bonuses out the ying-yang, so while there were other gods, following them was a significant disadvantage in his world.) But you know what, it was his world, so he got to say what goes. I wouldn't want to play in that world, but I have no problems with it existing. If I can support the creator's right to do as he pleases in that, having a worldwide ban on gay characters existing is no biggie for me accepting it- but, unfortunately for you... that's not the way the Realms actually is.
@LadyRhian What irony? The only thing that can make this thread worse than having TWO girls call me sexist when my opinions were clear is trying to outdo you with fancy one liners.
If that's what this has come to I am out.
You people base your opinions around dogma which has been cleverly planted in you and your misconceptions about the past and the present lead you to believe things which are not so. And your object of hatred is me, when I am not against you. If it makes you feel better to have an object of hatred then fine. I assume it's not just me and that you all do this to everyone you meet.
Pushing other people away is a great way of having support.
Don't ostracize people. I think that's what caused the whole 'gay pride movement' in the first place.
@Ward You said you were out a while ago. Maybe you should follow through on that; your tone continues to be confrontational, and people have repeatedly asked you to stop. I won't say it again; if you can't be civil in this thread, don't post in it.
It is possible to disagree with someone without insulting them.
Comments
Are you for real mate? you didnt fall out from a hard concrete stairway? Voices in your head told you about evil pop music....and that sex is fun!!?!?!?!?
@LadyRhain can yell about weird stuff for like 100 years straight and still dont come up to your level of retard mate......
Am gonna tell you a secret mate, and listen... you are sexist
but good news!!!!
There is a place in the world where your kind of society lives on.... its called Afghanistan
I suggest you go there... like now....
@Aosaw, do you know if Vanilla forums supports invite-only groups or sub-forums? I enjoy these kinds of discussions, sans-trolling, where we can speak in peace. If such a thing is supported, would it be possible for us to form a group? We would be able to talk, the trolls won't have to bother, everybody wins!
I know you guys are busy with the raging error/glitch/bug threads, so no hurries
The way humans are constantly marketed to is almost like voices in our heads though.
Samurai culture also allowed for male-male same sex relations between fellow Samurai. Since I have already shown that your assertion that "And while some few cultures, usally small ones tolerated somewhat "unnormal" sexual behavior this is a small... small minority..." (Greek and Roman cultures were small? Ancient China and Japan were small cultures? You sound like you have no idea what you are talking about.
As for the young men in the Greek army, it was the older men doing the shagging. That was part of the tradition in Greek Culture. The older man took the younger under his wing and initiated him in various ways. Including into sex. Greek culture was that it was shameful for an older man to be penetrated by his young lover. But apparently, it still happened.
As for me lying, I hope you enjoy eating your words, because here's the reply as he made it on the site:http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15988&whichpage=60 Its the fifth post from the bottom of the page. Hope you enjoy the taste of crow.
And to anyone else who reads this, being accused of lying is something I find triggering, so if I seem a little angry, it's because I am.
I think women have every right to strive for their own careers, but raising children is the most important and the hardest job in the world. For people to promote it as some pathetic thing that loser mothers do who can't get a job is just unfair doodoo.
To call raising children chauvanism brought on by the men is unfair. On us and yourself.
There is no chavanism here, you just don't understand that raising children isn't the pathetic dead end they brainwash you into thinking.
They want women in the workforce because they make more money that way. They want to convince us that raising children is for losers and to either a: not have any children or b: toss it up between children and career.
I'm not saying the children aren't the man's responsbility, they are the man's problem too. But what I'm saying is that, although I encourage women to do what they want, raising children should not be regarded as pathetic low for nobody except stupid people with no qualifications or an education.
I strongly prefer a romance sub-forum, or an invite only group. That would be cool for everybody.
BACON
And for the record, I care as well and I don't see how this topic should be prohibited from being discussed in this forum. If someone doesn't care about it then don't read it.
It's a sexist assumption, but it doesn't make you a sexist in and of itself.
What does make you sexist though, is your willingness to ignore a woman's autonomy in favour of some out-dated fever dream of the 1950s golden age where women were denied professional education, careers and control over their own bodies/sexuality. All based on the assumption that women aren't fit to deal with the outside world and must be sheltered from it by men.
What is @trinit talking about? He's talking about your hilarious persecution complex. Maybe you're having trouble understanding that just because people disagree with your reactionary opinions, doesn't mean they are in any way limiting your ability to express them (Hint: they couldn't even if they wanted to, unless they are a moderator).
The irony is that you are the one who can't let people be, apparently. You always find a way to make the conversation be about you you YOU!
I'm sure you'll accuse me misrepresenting you again. Which might just be true, considering what a hard time you seem to be having at properly expressing yourself. It might also help if you didn't change your position every second post.
You strongly implied that raising children is some deadbeat job. Holy.
@LadyRhian There are plenty of stay at home dads. It's an important job, but the stereotype is that the woman is far more nuturing and the man is far more earning. Ha. But that may of been true, but it doesn't always be true.
I can't read the topic at the moment, but from what I saw by glancing it just delete the inflammatory posts. I don't think that this subject should be something tabu on the board.
You represent a stereotype that women did nothing in the 1950s except wipe up kiddy vomit. For somebody who is so worried about women being put in their place, you fail to see how women AND men are put in their place now today.
I said nothing about a woman's ability to forge their own individual path. I said that in the 1950s, women had a certain place. That doesn't mean women did nothing except raise children and saying that raising children is for the horribly uneducated is insulting.
Roman culture promoted rape, i dont see that as tolerant. Greek a bit less but much the same.
Both Male dominant cultures with strong diffrences between City and Country so too say. Now that what you called "culture" i call child abuse as i assume no choice was given. China and Japan was much more tolerant but for men only. Women did not have much choice.
And i dont understand that post about lying....
"I belive your lying, i think if Ed Greenwood basicly banned homosexuality from the entire Forgotten realms universe you react with a bit more than "ok well thats his choice, and thats, that"
And am talking about a BAN, homosexuality dont EXIST in forgotten realms, you cant be homosexual... EVER..."
Was it this you are refering too? in that case his post says nothing about your reaction to a worldwide ban
Anyways, I am going to forward this post to my GM. We had both been in the dark about this subject for a while, and it will help clear up a lot of things for us n_n
And no, you accused me of lying about what he said, so I linked to the post where he said it. QED. And as for lying about supporting him if he said there was no homosexuality in the Realms, you're wrong again. One of my friends was in a campaign run by her boyfriend, where the dominant religion was a horse God and horse Goddess. The religion stated that horses were better than humans, and centaurs were better than humans, having horse parts, but below actual horses. One of the duties of the worshippers of the deities Barabek and Baratekay (the name of the deities) was to keep your horse "satisfied", and yes, he meant sexually. My friend was playing an Anti-Paladin and after one adventure, she got the requisite harness and whatnot, and "Satisfied" her stallion, leaving her unable to walk for a few days. Did I like this world? No, I did not (and I didn't even have to play in it!). But it was his world, and that's the way he designed it. (and worshippers of Barabek and Baratekay got bonuses out the ying-yang, so while there were other gods, following them was a significant disadvantage in his world.) But you know what, it was his world, so he got to say what goes. I wouldn't want to play in that world, but I have no problems with it existing. If I can support the creator's right to do as he pleases in that, having a worldwide ban on gay characters existing is no biggie for me accepting it- but, unfortunately for you... that's not the way the Realms actually is.
If that's what this has come to I am out.
You people base your opinions around dogma which has been cleverly planted in you and your misconceptions about the past and the present lead you to believe things which are not so. And your object of hatred is me, when I am not against you. If it makes you feel better to have an object of hatred then fine. I assume it's not just me and that you all do this to everyone you meet.
Pushing other people away is a great way of having support.
Don't ostracize people. I think that's what caused the whole 'gay pride movement' in the first place.
You said you were out a while ago. Maybe you should follow through on that; your tone continues to be confrontational, and people have repeatedly asked you to stop. I won't say it again; if you can't be civil in this thread, don't post in it.
It is possible to disagree with someone without insulting them.