Not your opinions of me, your opinions of the subjects here mentioned. @MedullaOblongata implied by saying that she's glad she isn't in the kitching and raising kids, what chauvanism, that I'm sexist and that being a mother is a dead end.
@klatu misrepresented what I said about women in the 1950s and turned it into "I think all women should still be in the kitchen and that no women in the 1950s did a single thing except wipe baby poop."
@Aosaw People disagree with me by insulting. I was called back to this thread by people continuing to insult me when I had made it very clear I left. Why do you make me the bad guy?
@Ward You claim you are being insulted, yet your first response to my original post was insulting to me. And at that point I hadn't even interacted with you on this thread. So yeah, the way you post and the things you say... invite the hot responses that you don't like. Don't start a conversation with insults, and maybe things will go better for you.
In case you have forgotten the words of your post, here they are again:
Secondly, on a related note, I noticed in one of the earlier year replies from Ed, it was implied that homosexuality and "other" sexuality is not considered with any great horror or interest in the Realms. Is there any sort of prejudice at all towards people whose sexualities are not the "Usual" ones (asexuals, polysexuals, bisexuals, etc.).
I think you're either obsessive about the fictional world, LadyRhian, or pathetic to impose your own insecurities about society relating to sexuality on a game. Let this end. I don't know if you're gay or even a woman, but regardless, whatever issues you have must be separate from here.
I am not trying to be rude, but you and several other people's obnoxious desire to furthur inject your social views into a game forum is getting very annoying. Once again, nobody cares about your orientation here.
As I said, if you don't start off throwing insults, maybe you'll be able to get out of a thread without people "ganging up on you" as you claimed in another post.
@Medivh1234 Trying to change the subject about homosexuality again, hmm? Not working.
No, I am not joking about this other campaign. I no longer remember her boyfriend's name (Last I heard, she'd married him, so I guess he's her husband now), but if I wanted to out her pre-marriage name over the internet, I could. But I wouldn't, because nobody deserves to have someone else use their name over the internet in association with that idea unless they agree to it. And I am no longer in contact with her, so... it's not going to happen.
And I wouldn't be playing the Forgotten Realms, either, if that sort of thing was present in the Realms, let alone the dominant religion. But if other people liked that and wanted to play it, I'd have no problems with that version of the Realms existing. I just wouldn't play it.
As far as I understand it, and have read histories of Ed Greenwood, he's been developing the Realms, which he used as a background for his childhood adventure fantasies, since he was 8 years old. That's why it's so complex and has so many layers- he's been developing the world since before there was even D&D. You can read his biography on wikipedia here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Greenwood
And I don't accept everything. But as a writer myself, yeah, I accept that a writer and creator can make the kind of world they want. I don't have to like it, I don't have to read it or experience it. But the writer/creator's right to make the world the way they want it to be? Sacrosanct. They have the right to have it be the way they want it. But if nobody likes or wants to read or play there, them's the breaks. And if that writer or creator wants to create properties around that world, but nobody likes or wants to experience them or buy them, again, them's the breaks. You may not understand that, but to me it's the freedom to create- you have the right to create it. You don't have the right to force people to have to experience it. I'm sorry if you can't understand that, but that's how I feel.
Medivh, I don't go around telling that story to just anyone, nor the name of my friend. However, it is a part of my experiences, just as reading a book called "The Crime Minister" by a writer named Ian Barclay that contained this line about a female character: "Her center of gravity was her t**t." (in case you can't parse that one, it's a rude name for an intimate portion of the female anatomy. I'd rather not use the actual word on these boards because it is just that crude. And to continue about the horse-centric game, she seemed happy to play there, but now that I am older, the words "compensating for *something*" come to mind...
@LadyRhian - I thank you for remembering to post Ed's answer, but I'm sorry for all the idiocy you had to suffer just for doing me and the rest a favour.
@scriver Really, it's fine. You know, I get angry, I vent, I get over it. It's a lot healthier than holding on and on to the annoyance. But it does remind me of that old joke about Stress being the body's reaction from holding back the impulse to choke the living **** out of some bunghole that desperately needs it.
As long as it's information people want to know, I can live with the ignorant and nasty responses. It also makes it clear who really *does* care when they say they don't.
@LadyRhian, thank you so much for taking the time and effort to write a thoughtful question to the creator of the Forgotten Realms to get an official stance on attitudes toward sexuality in the Realms.
I think it is beyond cool that you got a response from Mr. Greenwood himself, and a very detailed one, at that.
I would also like to thank you for your strength, and your willingness to fight for and defend the oppressed. I just don't have the emotional toughness to go around and around with hateful people. But I sure do appreciate the people who fight to defend emotionally weaker people like me from being crushed by hate. You and @Shandyr are my heroes.
@ladyrhian not trying to change the subject, its just that you keep on pushin on stuff i dont agree about and i belive your dead wrong, but i dont have a clue how to convice you since i refuse to scavange google about the horros of genocide.... its not fun reading about murder and i got better things to do...
I think people have ownership over the things they make.. but i dont agree that people dont have some sort of Responsibility for what they are doing.
You are saying that its Ed green choice and nothing else that decides the forgotten realms future, i say its his choice, but he has a responsibility to be honest and make a including game,but within realistic settings
Your not the only one who thinks others in this forums are ignorant
@belgarathmth Aw, thanks! The hard part for me can be when I really want to smack someone upside the head, and delete their posts and ban them, but you know, I wouldn't misuse my position as a mod that way. I even said, back when I was offered the mod position, that if I was involved in a situation, I would call in another mod so I wouldn't abuse my powers as a mod. It's too easy to lash out, and be just as bad back to the person you are talking to as they are being to you. But you have to overcome the impulse, because it's not the right thing to do. Especially, when you have more powers than they do in a place.
@LadyRhian, I admire your restraint. Some of the hatred expressed has been so outrageous, my first reaction was also anger. That's only human. But, life experience has taught me that reacting to hate with anger just makes you start to hate the hater, and it just winds up giving them more ammunition. So, after an initial burst of anger dies down, I just start feeling really sad and hurt, without that anger defense mechanism in place.
It's painful sometimes, but I think that it makes me a better person. The willingness to suffer pain and insults without responding in anger is one of the good things I have retained from having been a Christian.
It seems to have calmed down a little. So I got a response from my GM about Greenwood's thoughts on this:
"Read the article. Ed Greenwood is a very interesting guy. Did you know that Eliminster was written in as Ed's mouthpiece in the FR? Pretty philosophic guy.
I agree with his logic that broadly polytheistic societies would not attempt to define sexuality under one doctrine. Simply too many other faiths...
I tell you not to sleep with other men and you could hip over to an all male monastic order that promotes sexual relations between it's monks for example.
I love Ed's 'ask the locals who know' and applaud him not answering with 'no sex in D&D' you silly people (position I have heard from a few players)"
@Medivh1234 I am saying that a creator has the right to create as he or she wants. He doesn't have the right to force his creation on people. As I understand it, he made it clear to TSR that the Realms was fairly sexually free, but they chose to downplay that aspect. At that point, as the creator, he would have been free to walk away and not publish the Realms through them. He said it was okay to overlook or conceal that part of his creation- again, his choice. But if asked outright, yeah, he doesn't deny what the Realms are really like.
People are also free not to support something they don't agree with. And that's the second part of my argument- if you create a world so gross and disgusting that nobody wants to see or play in or with it, that's up to them. You can't force someone to consume your ideas for a world or a creative work. If you create a world where it's socially okay to have sex with children and babies, I doubt anyone is going to want to publish it or play in it. And if you do publish it on your own, you can lose money on the proposition, and people are almost certainly going to mock and rip on it. And that is their right as well.
And I label no one an idiot. There are certain idiotic opinions, though. And yes, Ed Greenwood's choice is responsible for a lot of the Realms. And... I need to go to work, so I am going to have to leave it here for now. I can't post at work.
I also have had lifelong problems with anger... It has taken up to this point where I have it under so much control, which is more than can be said for the rest of my life. I refuse to go around and around as well, because the temptation to go completely postal is too strong... And I like this community too much to risk the ban-hammer.
What I find astonishing and angering is that we can't have a conversation about (or even skirting!) gender or sexuality without it turning into this. Regardless of the original post, the thread - with amazing swiftness - goes to ignorant but fanatical claims about "facts" on historical cultures and differences between the sexes, ad hominem about sexuality conspiracies and/or loud complaining about having the discussion in the first place. Every. Single. Time. And I don't say that lightly.
I'm not a friend of heavyhanded moderation, but I'm starting to think that we'd need a thread that would be forced to stay on topic. (Not that I expect the fine moderators of this forum to use their surely limited time on such. Much respect to every single one of you, it's a thankless job and you're doing it great.) But it's wrong that we can't talk about these things without harassment.
@Medivh1234 I am saying that a creator has the right to create as he or she wants. He doesn't have the right to force his creation on people. As I understand it, he made it clear to TSR that the Realms was fairly sexually free, but they chose to downplay that aspect. At that point, as the creator, he would have been free to walk away and not publish the Realms through them. He said it was okay to overlook or conceal that part of his creation- again, his choice. But if asked outright, yeah, he doesn't deny what the Realms are really like.
People are also free not to support something they don't agree with. And that's the second part of my argument- if you create a world so gross and disgusting that nobody wants to see or play in or with it, that's up to them. You can't force someone to consume your ideas for a world or a creative work. If you create a world where it's socially okay to have sex with children and babies, I doubt anyone is going to want to publish it or play in it. And if you do publish it on your own, you can lose money on the proposition, and people are almost certainly going to mock and rip on it. And that is their right as well.
And I label no one an idiot. There are certain idiotic opinions, though. And yes, Ed Greenwood's choice is responsible for a lot of the Realms. And... I need to go to work, so I am going to have to leave it here for now. I can't post at work.
Am pretty sure people in here agree with me that they love Forgotten Realms so much that if Ed Greenwood decided to impliment sex with Children and babies then we would feel kinda cheated out of our favorite fantasty Realm.... and i found be a bit more upset than just "not approving"and am not entirly sure thats even legal.......
This is not a new fantasy world i created in my basement, forgotten realms is HUGE now... Writers have Responsibility Why do you think the harry potter writer suddenly made that Wizard homosexual?
My point is that its ISNT just Ed Greenwoods Forgotten Realms anymore, its my forgotten Realms, and yours.... and its Ed Greenwoods duty to be a caretaker of that world... not a god ... and he should like bioware be open about what he does in the game becouse it effects allot of people outside of it.
LadyRhian asked a question a few months ago to Ed Greenwood. Many people where curious for his answers, he did indeed answers, it adds insight into the realms and as asked by other forum members, LadyRhian didn't keep the info to herself but shared it with us. That's all that's too it and that's all very great: it's great Ed Greenwood answered, it's great Lady Rhian kept her promise, it's great the reply is so eloquent and elaborate, even if Ed himself says it 'only scratches the surface'.
Thanks Lady Rhian.
And to the haters: I really don't understand the hatred. If you're not interested, there's nobody else compelling you to read this topic or participate in it. Ignore it and please keep your hatred to yourselves.
@Schneidend Nothing wrong with naysayers. There are genuine reasons why there shouldn't be gay/bi romances, however, I don't care if there ARE romances or not.
Give them romances to make the game more customizable. But don't give them romances because it makes them feel better. Don't extend your own paranoid social opinions into a fictional game.
There's plenty wrong with naysayers when they have nothing constructive to say, and on this subject they often don't. And, no, there's no real reason to not include LGBT options barring genuine time/budget concerns. Such options make the game more customizable AND make a growing segment of the playerbase feel better. It accomplishes both of those things.
@MedullaOblongata: What's all this about Bacon? Is there some slang or internet meaning to it or is it just a pythonesque joke you always throw around?
I wish people would talk English more on this forum instead of using all kind of abbrevations and internet slang I don't get the meaning of without googling for the Urban Dictionary. I'll need to add the Urban Dictionary to my Symbaloo homepage this way.
@Medivh1234 I am saying that a creator has the right to create as he or she wants. He doesn't have the right to force his creation on people. As I understand it, he made it clear to TSR that the Realms was fairly sexually free, but they chose to downplay that aspect. At that point, as the creator, he would have been free to walk away and not publish the Realms through them. He said it was okay to overlook or conceal that part of his creation- again, his choice. But if asked outright, yeah, he doesn't deny what the Realms are really like.
People are also free not to support something they don't agree with. And that's the second part of my argument- if you create a world so gross and disgusting that nobody wants to see or play in or with it, that's up to them. You can't force someone to consume your ideas for a world or a creative work. If you create a world where it's socially okay to have sex with children and babies, I doubt anyone is going to want to publish it or play in it. And if you do publish it on your own, you can lose money on the proposition, and people are almost certainly going to mock and rip on it. And that is their right as well.
And I label no one an idiot. There are certain idiotic opinions, though. And yes, Ed Greenwood's choice is responsible for a lot of the Realms. And... I need to go to work, so I am going to have to leave it here for now. I can't post at work.
Am pretty sure people in here agree with me that they love Forgotten Realms so much that if Ed Greenwood decided to impliment sex with Children and babies then we would feel kinda cheated out of our favorite fantasty Realm.... and i found be a bit more upset than just "not approving"and am not entirly sure thats even legal.......
This is not a new fantasy world i created in my basement, forgotten realms is HUGE now... Writers have Responsibility Why do you think the harry potter writer suddenly made that Wizard homosexual?
My point is that its ISNT just Ed Greenwoods Forgotten Realms anymore, its my forgotten Realms, and yours.... and its Ed Greenwoods duty to be a caretaker of that world... not a god ... and he should like bioware be open about what he does in the game becouse it effects allot of people outside of it.
No. It's his world, he can create it any way he likes. If he implements sex with children in his world then he is fully in his right to do so. If that turns you off, that's your problem. No one is forcing you to engage in the FR setting.
@MedullaOblongata: What's all this about Bacon? Is there some slang or internet meaning to it or is it just a pythonesque joke you always throw around?
I wish people would talk English more on this forum instead of using all kind of abbrevations and internet slang I don't get the meaning of without googling for the Urban Dictionary. I'll need to add the Urban Dictionary to my Symbaloo homepage this way.
I throw in bacon for one of two reasons: just to be silly, or making a light-hearted attempt to get people to lighten up. In this case, it's the latter
The exception to this is Star Wars. George Lucas had his chance, and he ruined it. But that's more a criticism of him as a producer and director, rather than as a visionary of galactic fantasy.
Back on topic... I am glad such options exist for those who are interested. And for those who aren't, no big deal - it doesn't have to happen. Everyone wins n_n
What needs to happen (and I've said this before) is that writers need to create more believable "not interested" dialogue options. In many cases, rejecting a character's advances feels like homicide, which it shouldn't be. Romanceable characters ought to have just as interesting "friendship" arcs, for those players that aren't interested in a romantic relationship with fictional characters.
Comments
@klatu misrepresented what I said about women in the 1950s and turned it into "I think all women should still be in the kitchen and that no women in the 1950s did a single thing except wipe baby poop."
@Aosaw People disagree with me by insulting. I was called back to this thread by people continuing to insult me when I had made it very clear I left. Why do you make me the bad guy?
* Meant to be funny.
In case you have forgotten the words of your post, here they are again: As I said, if you don't start off throwing insults, maybe you'll be able to get out of a thread without people "ganging up on you" as you claimed in another post.
Way too far.
No, I am not joking about this other campaign. I no longer remember her boyfriend's name (Last I heard, she'd married him, so I guess he's her husband now), but if I wanted to out her pre-marriage name over the internet, I could. But I wouldn't, because nobody deserves to have someone else use their name over the internet in association with that idea unless they agree to it. And I am no longer in contact with her, so... it's not going to happen.
And I wouldn't be playing the Forgotten Realms, either, if that sort of thing was present in the Realms, let alone the dominant religion. But if other people liked that and wanted to play it, I'd have no problems with that version of the Realms existing. I just wouldn't play it.
As far as I understand it, and have read histories of Ed Greenwood, he's been developing the Realms, which he used as a background for his childhood adventure fantasies, since he was 8 years old. That's why it's so complex and has so many layers- he's been developing the world since before there was even D&D. You can read his biography on wikipedia here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Greenwood
And I don't accept everything. But as a writer myself, yeah, I accept that a writer and creator can make the kind of world they want. I don't have to like it, I don't have to read it or experience it. But the writer/creator's right to make the world the way they want it to be? Sacrosanct. They have the right to have it be the way they want it. But if nobody likes or wants to read or play there, them's the breaks. And if that writer or creator wants to create properties around that world, but nobody likes or wants to experience them or buy them, again, them's the breaks. You may not understand that, but to me it's the freedom to create- you have the right to create it. You don't have the right to force people to have to experience it. I'm sorry if you can't understand that, but that's how I feel.
Medivh, I don't go around telling that story to just anyone, nor the name of my friend. However, it is a part of my experiences, just as reading a book called "The Crime Minister" by a writer named Ian Barclay that contained this line about a female character: "Her center of gravity was her t**t." (in case you can't parse that one, it's a rude name for an intimate portion of the female anatomy. I'd rather not use the actual word on these boards because it is just that crude. And to continue about the horse-centric game, she seemed happy to play there, but now that I am older, the words "compensating for *something*" come to mind...
As long as it's information people want to know, I can live with the ignorant and nasty responses. It also makes it clear who really *does* care when they say they don't.
I think it is beyond cool that you got a response from Mr. Greenwood himself, and a very detailed one, at that.
I would also like to thank you for your strength, and your willingness to fight for and defend the oppressed. I just don't have the emotional toughness to go around and around with hateful people. But I sure do appreciate the people who fight to defend emotionally weaker people like me from being crushed by hate. You and @Shandyr are my heroes.
I think people have ownership over the things they make.. but i dont agree that people dont have some sort of Responsibility for what they are doing.
You are saying that its Ed green choice and nothing else that decides the forgotten realms future, i say its his choice, but he has a responsibility to be honest and make a including game,but within realistic settings
Your not the only one who thinks others in this forums are ignorant
It's painful sometimes, but I think that it makes me a better person. The willingness to suffer pain and insults without responding in anger is one of the good things I have retained from having been a Christian.
"Read the article. Ed Greenwood is a very interesting guy. Did you know that Eliminster was written in as Ed's mouthpiece in the FR? Pretty philosophic guy.
I agree with his logic that broadly polytheistic societies would not attempt to define sexuality under one doctrine. Simply too many other faiths...
I tell you not to sleep with other men and you could hip over to an all male monastic order that promotes sexual relations between it's monks for example.
I love Ed's 'ask the locals who know' and applaud him not answering with 'no sex in D&D' you silly people (position I have heard from a few players)"
People are also free not to support something they don't agree with. And that's the second part of my argument- if you create a world so gross and disgusting that nobody wants to see or play in or with it, that's up to them. You can't force someone to consume your ideas for a world or a creative work. If you create a world where it's socially okay to have sex with children and babies, I doubt anyone is going to want to publish it or play in it. And if you do publish it on your own, you can lose money on the proposition, and people are almost certainly going to mock and rip on it. And that is their right as well.
And I label no one an idiot. There are certain idiotic opinions, though. And yes, Ed Greenwood's choice is responsible for a lot of the Realms. And... I need to go to work, so I am going to have to leave it here for now. I can't post at work.
Still hoping for a block function
I'm not a friend of heavyhanded moderation, but I'm starting to think that we'd need a thread that would be forced to stay on topic. (Not that I expect the fine moderators of this forum to use their surely limited time on such. Much respect to every single one of you, it's a thankless job and you're doing it great.) But it's wrong that we can't talk about these things without harassment.
This is not a new fantasy world i created in my basement, forgotten realms is HUGE now... Writers have Responsibility
Why do you think the harry potter writer suddenly made that Wizard homosexual?
My point is that its ISNT just Ed Greenwoods Forgotten Realms anymore, its my forgotten Realms, and yours.... and its Ed Greenwoods duty to be a caretaker of that world... not a god ... and he should like bioware be open about what he does in the game becouse it effects allot of people outside of it.
LadyRhian asked a question a few months ago to Ed Greenwood. Many people where curious for his answers, he did indeed answers, it adds insight into the realms and as asked by other forum members, LadyRhian didn't keep the info to herself but shared it with us. That's all that's too it and that's all very great: it's great Ed Greenwood answered, it's great Lady Rhian kept her promise, it's great the reply is so eloquent and elaborate, even if Ed himself says it 'only scratches the surface'.
Thanks Lady Rhian.
And to the haters: I really don't understand the hatred. If you're not interested, there's nobody else compelling you to read this topic or participate in it. Ignore it and please keep your hatred to yourselves.
BACON!
Srsly, people. Bacon already! =A=
I wish people would talk English more on this forum instead of using all kind of abbrevations and internet slang I don't get the meaning of without googling for the Urban Dictionary. I'll need to add the Urban Dictionary to my Symbaloo homepage this way.
But Dave's a pretty talented (/understatement) writer, so I'm sure he's got some good things planned.
(And if that's not enough, I'm working on an NPC of my own come BG2:EE.)
OK, Cheesecrackers than, I prefer vegetarian food.
Back on topic... I am glad such options exist for those who are interested. And for those who aren't, no big deal - it doesn't have to happen. Everyone wins n_n