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Blackguard is a Paladin Kit / The Holy Avanger(BG2) requires Paladin kit.

KougaKouga Member Posts: 83
in Archive (General Discussion)
So, a Blackguard can equip the Holy Avanger from BG2 amirite? :b

On a side note, what happens if I try to import a BG EE save to BG2? Specificly if the protagonist is a Blackguard.

Just curious!

Comments

  • ScofieldScofield Member Posts: 119
    "...The evils of the Realms must truly stand aside when this weapon is brought to bear... Carsomyr also harbors a special distaste for the forces of evil and chaos, and such creatures must fear additional damage from its touch in battle."

    A fragment from the Holy Avanger's (Carsomyr +5) description. Based on this, a Blackguard shouldn't be able to wield it.
  • TrollGrapplerTrollGrappler Member Posts: 11
    edited November 2012
    Nobody really knows what Overhaul will do, but as Scofield said, for background reasons, Carsomyr shouldn't be able usable by blackguards.

    And I've just try to import the character file of a Blackguard in BG2. You simply get a Loyal/Neutral/Chaotic Evil Paladin (so, without any kit). It's logical, as the Blackguard kit isn't coded in BG2.
    But the rules should apply, maybe you need to have above 6 reputation to keep the paladin class, and you should be able to wield Carsomyr.
  • ScofieldScofield Member Posts: 119
    Btw, I find it odd that Blackguards are put into the Paladin class. The idea of an evil paladin is the fallen paladin itself, at least for me. Anyway, Beamdog has to come up with something when the time comes to joining your stronghold in BG2 as a Blackguard. The order of the radiant heart + an evil Blackguard with be a somewhat bizarre combination.

    I can imagine Dorn for instance, knocking on the Order's door with a heart in his hand still "radiating" heat, asking for admission...
  • TrollGrapplerTrollGrappler Member Posts: 11
    As the engine just already been revised,we can dream that they will get enough time to do something specific for the blackguard.
  • KougaKouga Member Posts: 83
    edited November 2012
    @Scofield True, the description does say that as I remember. So ofcourse, lorewise it would be improper for a Blackguard to wield the Holy Avenger. However the Holy Avanger only requires the wielder to be of the Paladin kit (thus far), not mattering wether he's evil or not, as that's already taken care of by "If you're evil, you become Fallen Paladin, which is a Fighter kit without bonuses". Therefore right now a Blackguard would in theory be able to equip the Holy Avanger, right?

    Furthermore, I've been thinking and if any kit should be proper for the Blackguard it should be the Fighter kit, no? I understand the Blackguard uses a degree of magic as I've rolled one in the Black Pits, but it being a Paladin kit also means only a Human can be a Blackguard (So how did Dorn become one in the first place as Half Orc?).

    If it was to be a standalone or Fighter kit, anyone could be Blackguard without restrictions other than aligment.
  • ScofieldScofield Member Posts: 119
    @TrollGrappler Well yeas, we can hope so although, they will be occupied with fixing the numerous bugs of BGEE for quite a long time.
  • glenn3eglenn3e Member Posts: 8
    They could add the requirements for HA to be "Lawful Good". Then maybe make an Unholy Avenger counterpart or something.
  • KougaKouga Member Posts: 83
    edited November 2012
    @glenn3e Exactly, although there is already a sort of Holy Avanger counterpart in BG2 SoF, 2h +4 that requires the wielder to be evil. However it is not as powerful and cannot be upgraded in ToB.
  • glenn3eglenn3e Member Posts: 8
    Ahh, I don't remember that because I never tried an Evil playthrough before. Now, on my all female evil party things do get interesting....
  • FateAscendsFateAscends Member Posts: 63
    edited November 2012
    glenn3e said:

    They could add the requirements for HA to be "Lawful Good"...

    I see your lawful good requirement, and raise you one Helm of Opposite Alignment.

  • VikingKittenVikingKitten Member Posts: 3
    I predict a new sword for Blackguards and they will get the Fighter stronghold instead of joining the Radiant Heart. Just how I would do it if I were under the same restrictions Overhaul is facing.
  • KougaKouga Member Posts: 83
    @VikingKitten It needs to fit in the Forgotten Realms lore however, so new swords? Hmnahh, but maybe enhance current sword at best. The Fighter Stronghold seemed like a good optional to the Radiant Heart for a Blackguard to me, aswell. Comming back to my point of Blackguards being more proper in the Fighter Kit section.
  • Dragonfolk2000Dragonfolk2000 Member Posts: 390
    Am I the only person that noticed that half-orcs normally can't be paladins and thus cannot take up blackguard? The only half-orc blackguard you can ever have is Dorn. That's not a bad thing, it acts as a quirk to make the character more interesting (like Branwin's spiritual hammer or Kaigain's 20 con).
  • MornmagorMornmagor Member Posts: 1,160
    The Blackguard will not be able to wield Carsomyr, but you can be sure there will be a weapon for him as well.

    And if there isn't, there are some swords that are better than Carsomyr. Silver vorpal sword comes to mind.
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,214
    There's always the Unholy Avenger... should be simple to add to the game... Let the silver dragon be the one guarding it in the underdark :)
  • AndtalathAndtalath Member Posts: 23
    Not useable by alignment is easy enough to add.

    Also, there are no evil only swords in BGII, there are two which SHOULD be, blackrazor (long sword) and whatever the demon knights negative level weapon is called, but neither of them requires any particular alignment.

    And, regarding NPCs and classes, there are plenty of characters which break the rules in some way.
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,214
    @Andtalath It would be a could idea to make a request for BG II EE to mark those swords as evil only...
  • AndtalathAndtalath Member Posts: 23
    Doesn't matter that much.
    There are way better two-handed swords than that one (like the vorpal sword) and the blackrazor is more of a flavor item which you only get by the end of BG1 and is not that good anyhow in ToB.
    Also, if you chose to keep blackrazor, mainchar turns evil anyhow minutes later (if they implement Baldurdash type of patches).

    There are plenty of ideas I'd like to pitch to them though, they don't seem to grasp balance very well at all.
  • ShrimpShrimp Member Posts: 142
    Wasn't there a mod where you could "corrupt" Carsomyr using Adalon's blood?
    I know with Item Upgrade you can fuse it with Soulreaver (eh, another nice sword for a Blackguard) to make an evil sword with both's powers (overpowered? Never!), so maybe I'm just confused.
  • KougaKouga Member Posts: 83
    Never been a huge fan of just the idea of mods, never tried them aswell however.. But I don't judge you guys for using them ofcourse
  • bbearbbear Member Posts: 1,180
    Andtalath said:

    Not useable by alignment is easy enough to add.

    Also, there are no evil only swords in BGII, there are two which SHOULD be, blackrazor (long sword) and whatever the demon knights negative level weapon is called, but neither of them requires any particular alignment.

    And, regarding NPCs and classes, there are plenty of characters which break the rules in some way.

    The demon knight carries the soul reaver. I think the requirement is that good align character cant use it. It's actually a very wicked sword that withers away the victim's thaco, perfect for the backguard.
  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376
    edited November 2012
    Scofield said:

    Btw, I find it odd that Blackguards are put into the Paladin class. The idea of an evil paladin is the fallen paladin itself, at least for me.

    @Scofield - I think they got it right. A Paladin is basically a holy warrior of their god. A fallen paladin is a character that fails to live up to the ideals they strived to reach as a paladin.

    I think of it this way -- someone can be a worshiper of Jesus or worship the Devil. But if they lose their faith, then they are no longer among the true worshipers. Fallen paladins are like former worshipers who no longer believe (i.e., have lost their faith) while devil worshipers have a differently oriented faith.

    A Blackguard never strives to be good and loses his way. He strives to do evil in service of evil holy powers. Therefore, there is no need for him to lose the 'blessing' of the divine forces he serves like a paladin that strays from the path or loses his faith. A blackguard should similarly be able to 'fall' from the 'grace' of his divine benefactors if he strays from the path of evil.

    Your statement that an evil paladin = fallen (or faithless) paladin presumes that the evil gods would never bless their holy warriors like the good gods do, but that is antithetical to the blackguard kit. Since that kit is about doing evil in the name of unholy powers, those evil powers can bless and reward the blackguard like the regular paladins.
  • ScofieldScofield Member Posts: 119
    @AHF You have a point there. It just takes some getting used it, since an evil paladin is a completely new idea.
  • KougaKouga Member Posts: 83
    edited December 2012
    @AHF Ofcourse, that's the lore side of the story. However simpely because there's no "devil worshippers" among the Paladin kit as you put it doesn't mean there 'has' to be one. AHF shows a way to explain to yourself to be able to deal with the current choice.

    However, I still think Blackguard should be a Fighter kit because it would be alot more convenient for the game itself.

    There could maybe be struck a balance, whereas all races can pick the Paladin kit but all the non-humans will have all kits apart from Blackguard greyed out, maybe? And then maybe script the Blackguard Paladin kit to have the BG2 stronghold bonus of the Fighter... But from that point things would already get confusing for newer players. So the simple solution is Blackguard Fighter kit.

    On a side note, the way I explained Blackguard Paladin kit to myself was that they posess a degree of magic and granted powers, that other fighter kits do not have, neither similiar. They Could be seen as an evil paladin yes, but they are not necesarily, at all not.
  • DoveDeDomoPhoenixDoveDeDomoPhoenix Member Posts: 18
    Scofield said:

    @AHF You have a point there. It just takes some getting used it, since an evil paladin is a completely new idea.

    LOL if but completely new you mean over 33 years old. Dragon published an evil paladin variant in July of 1980.

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