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[bgee] [bug] bows and dexterity THAC0 omission ?

dam23dam23 Member Posts: 30
in BG:EE Bugs (v1.2)
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think there might be a THAC0 problem here, see below.

This is for a level 1 multiclassed fighter/thief dwarf with 17 dex, 2 stars in longbow proficiency and a composite longbow with regular arrows:

The information screen shows:
base thac0 20
composite longbow: -1
longbow (proficiency 2 stars) -1
dexterity (17 dex) -2
resulting thac0 18

Shouldn't that be 16 THAC0 ?
From the ability score tables for dexterity, 17 dex is -2 THAC0:
http://stane0.tripod.com/BG1Tables.html



I experience the same problem with Imoen, level 1 thief, 18 dex:
base thac0 20
shortbow (proficiency 1 star, no THAC0 bonus): 0
dexterity (18 dex) -2
resulting thac0 20

Again, according to ability score tables 18 dex should confer a -2 THAC0 bonus for ranged weapons, which is getting ignored here.

Perhaps the bonus is simply being applied but not displayed in the info box.
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Comments

  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    I don't know if this has been reported before, but if you have a ranged weapon equiped, the THACO info in the box on both the character stats and inventory page is always wrong, though its correct when list in the lathe box to the right of the attrrbute stats.

    Also, should the +1 modifiers for elf and hallfing weapon bonuses ne shown in the box that shows THACO modifications? They do seem to be being applied, though, if the THACO shown in the main box to the right of the characters attributes is anything to go by, though.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,754
    edited November 2012
    Yes, unfortunately, they were so proud that this game would help to understand AD&D rules, THAC0 included. "We’re trying to show you how your Armor class is calculated and how your THAC0 (To hit armor class zero) is arrived at." And that's what we have got. It's so sad.
  • BerconBercon Member Posts: 485
    THAC0 in the inventory is incorrect. If you check your Record screen which shows exp to next level etc. info, it will display your real THAC0 in that list.
  • PsychoblondePsychoblonde Member Posts: 14
    In the inventory screen when my fighter/thief with an 18 dex has her composite longbow (2 points proficiency) equipped, it displays her THAC0 as 18. It displays it correctly as 15 in the character record screen, however.

    I haven't tested this extensively with other ranged weapons or combinations. It seems to be working fine, it's just a display error.
  • ElizabethSterlingElizabethSterling Member Posts: 39
    edited November 2012
    Are you sure that's not 'base THAC0'? Last I checked that's what the inventory scene displays. If I remember my D&D properly base THAC0 goes down once per level for fighters, once per two levels for thieves/clerics/etc. and once per four levels for mages.
  • PsychoblondePsychoblonde Member Posts: 14
    In that case it should be a 16, not an 18--2 from dex 1 from fighter 1 from proficiency. Or a 19, if it's not showing the dex/proficiency. Whatever it's supposed to be showing, it's still wrong, because there's no logical way you could get an 18 with the numbers I've got.

    Why it should display all the sources of bonuses (which it does, correctly, right next to the number) but not actually add them together for the final number is beyond me.
  • sunset00sunset00 Member Posts: 310
    Could it also be that long bows/composite bows have inherently a bonus thac0 -1 (right clic description) ?... )
  • Merlin84Merlin84 Member Posts: 8
    I got the same problem with Imoen and and her shortbow. In the inventory screen the THACO is displayed as 20 (wrong) and in the character record screen it is displayed as 18 (correct).
  • csuzwcsuzw Member Posts: 48
    edited November 2012
    @Merlin84 I've got the same problem with Imoen. Montaron and Xsar are correct. My character is even weirder though:
    Character sheet says base = 20, actual = 17. Inventory says 15 with breakdown being base = 20, club = -3, strength = 0. I'm a Berzerker with strength = 18/66, 2 pips in Clubs and Single Weapon Style and I'm wielding a club so again I think the character sheet is correct and the inventory is wrong.
  • dam23dam23 Member Posts: 30
    I confirm the correct THAC0 is displayed in the record window, in the old-style parchment information with your xp, level, proficiencies and all.

    However, note that the inventory-like information box that displays AC/THAC0/damage there also incorrectly displays a THAC0 of 18.

    Also note that the game doesn't correctly take into account the Assassin kit's passive -1 THAC0 and +1 damage bonuses, for said information boxes displays.
  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 1,063
    There are still a number of bugs with the damage and THAC0 boxes. Do not trust them yet.
  • junk11junk11 Member Posts: 117
    edited December 2012
    They fix the weapon THAC0 display with new patch, however Dex/Str addon THAC0 is missing from both info box now
  • DerDuKeDerDuKe Member Posts: 88
    junk11 said:

    They fix the weapon THAC0 display with new patch, however Dex/Str addon THAC0 is missing from both info box now

    @junk11

    Agree. Now both info boxes display the same - but WRONG - values. Strength is not taken into the account for the THAC0 calculation... :-/
  • dam23dam23 Member Posts: 30
    Additionally and as I pointed out in my 2nd post, note that Assassin THAC0 and damage bonuses are not taken into account in the info boxes, while they're correctly shown in the text written on the info parchment.
  • Merlin84Merlin84 Member Posts: 8
    I just applied the new patch and the problem with the wrong THACO displayed in the inventory screen seems to be fixed.
  • junk11junk11 Member Posts: 117
    edited December 2012
    @Merlin84
    as stated here
    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/8616/bgee-bug-bows-and-dexterity-thac0-omission#latest

    it doesn't take Str/Dex modifiers into account for THAC0 as well as bonus from classes (like assassin)
    so...still wrong :/
  • Merlin84Merlin84 Member Posts: 8
    @junk11

    Hmm i don't think this is correct. Base THACO for Imoen is 20 and she gets a -2 bonus from dex so the resulting THACO is 18. The same goes for my fighter with 18/00 str. Base THACO is 20, he gets a -3 bonus from str und a -1 bonus from 2 points in weapon profiency, so the resulting THACO is 16. Both THACO for Imoen and my fighter are displayed correctly.

  • junk11junk11 Member Posts: 117
    edited December 2012
    @Merlin84
    my one still missing those modifiers..
    don't tell me is a windows system locale thing like ....
    I will change my locale and see..
  • junk11junk11 Member Posts: 117
    junk11 said:

    @Merlin84
    my one still missing those modifiers..
    don't tell me is a windows system locale thing like ....
    I will change my locale and see..

    still missing, only Damage shows correctly, THAC0 still missing dex/str modifier on my one with new patch, non modified game (checked with both old and newly created characters)
  • HoiusHoius Member Posts: 27
    Same thing here guys - in the Character screen (not the Inventory) it should be showing that my character has +1 to THAC0 from his Strength (18/08) and +1 from his weapon proficiency (2 points on Bastard sword). However it shows that he has +2 from proficiency and nothing from his Strength. The numbers are correct, but the modifiers themselves are not shown correctly.
  • DecrepitDragonDecrepitDragon Member Posts: 120
    My character is a Barbarian Half-Orc, with a 19 Str, usually giving him a +3/+7 hit/dam abilities. With one point in Mace, and none in Longsword (strange choice I know :) ), are these figures right - because something about them just seems off? :-

    image

    You'll notice that the Thaco is 19. The Longsword modifier seems to be -1, but the ability mod has somehow become +4/+7. This is confusing.

    image

    Here, my thac0 seems to be correct, the modifiers appear to be corect, but the abilities are at +6/+7. Simply put, there is no way that I'm aware of, for those figures to make sense.

    Opinions welcome ( including the "You cant count" ones ). :)
  • GreggorGreggor Member Posts: 5
    I don't understand your question. You're not proficient in longswords, so you take a penalty to hit with them. That's why your THAC0 is lower for longswords.

    The figures under "to hit" are the bonuses you get to attack, taking into account proficiency, relevant ability mod, class features, etc. So You get +4 to hit, which constitutes a THAC0 of 19.

    What's your question?
  • DecrepitDragonDecrepitDragon Member Posts: 120
    edited December 2012
    Well @Greggor, I thought it was clear, but maybe not eh?

    Let me clarify - I understand that Thaco 19 is accurate ( -2 nonproficient, +3Str ) - so where does +4 fit in to all of that? The only "plus" i should get when wielding a longsword is Str ( +3 ). Is it just the games way of working out the "to Hit" roll maths?

    The same for the mace - the only plus is Str, with no negatives, so where does the +6 come from? What possible bonuses/penalties are being applied that make it +6 specifically?

    Strength 19 gives +3/+7, proficient with mace, no neg's, to hit bonus is only +3, giving a modified thac0 of 17 - so again, where does the game get this +6 from? What does it do with it?

    EDIT - @Zeckul, any chance you could give an opinion on this one? Don't mean to harass you mate, but you helped out with another issue I had and your name just sprung to mind. Thanks. :)
    Post edited by DecrepitDragon on
  • jaldenjalden Member Posts: 44
    I'm confused about this too. The final thac0 numbers make sense "19" and "17". That's what you should have as a level 1 character with your strength and those proficiencies.

    But to me the "+4" and "+6" to hit stuff seems to be 3 points too high. Anyone know where those numbers are coming from?
  • AristilliusAristillius Member Posts: 873
    Weird. I have kept a close watch on my character sheet post-patch and everything seems to be in order. I could understand the "+4" becasue perhaps the game implemented bonus thaco from weapons into "ability" (+3 weapon, +1 enchanted weapon = +4), still not correct but understandable. You are certain you are not benefitting from gauntlets or spells?
  • DecrepitDragonDecrepitDragon Member Posts: 120
    @jalden - No idea. I've shuffled numbers around in my head but still cant come up with the right maths to make the numbers work.

    @Aristilliu - Absolutely positive - I've only just left Candlekeep. Proficiencies dont account for the numbers, neither does epuipment, and I'm not under any buff spells or abilities.

    I thought maybe that the engine was adding these adjustments to my base d20 hit roll, but I still cant find a justification for the figures. With a non-proficient weapon, maybe the engine is messing up the maths, ie: -2 for non-prof' = thac0 21, base thaco minus Str = 17, difference of +4? And maybe the +6 is similar, in that base is 20, thaco+str = 17, difference of 3, +3Str = +6?

    Those mechanics are obviously wrong, but its the only way I can equal the figures shown. And if the mechanics are wrong, how does that affect my abilities in combat?

    I have noticed that even when I'm using my mace, Imoen and the other party members seem to be hitting far more regularly. This is, however just a guess ( they do shoot twice per round so I could be misjudging it ). I think I'll keep an eye on my combats for a while, and compare relative thac0's within the party - see if that gets me closer to an answer. :)
  • DecrepitDragonDecrepitDragon Member Posts: 120
    Apologies for the double post.

    It seems my observations during combat previously were inaccurate - the base chance to hit appears to be just fine when actually applied to combat rolls. For example, 7+3=10, gibberling hit. Yay. Another, 10+5 ( rage activated ) = 15, wolf hit. Again, yay.

    It seems that the Record ability modifiers are being miscalculated, but that they have no influence on actual "rolls". A small bug then, but a bug all the same.
  • junk11junk11 Member Posts: 117
    @DecrepitDragon
    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/8616/bgee-bug-bows-and-dexterity-thac0-omission
    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/8764/ranged-thac0-display-error-with-composite-longbow

    same bug we talked about in other threads
    however, as you said, it doesn't affect the actual combat.
    There are many bugs/missing info around the new GUI, they fix some then create new ones. :/
  • DecrepitDragonDecrepitDragon Member Posts: 120
    @junk11 - Makes you wish the search function worked properly eh? The number of times I tried to find similar threads . . . .

    Strangely, if you do a google search, starting with BG:EE and then your search query, you get better results than the in house forum search! Wish I knew that then. :)

    Thanks for the heads up though mate. :)
  • Merlin84Merlin84 Member Posts: 8
    Hoius said:

    Same thing here guys - in the Character screen (not the Inventory) it should be showing that my character has +1 to THAC0 from his Strength (18/08) and +1 from his weapon proficiency (2 points on Bastard sword). However it shows that he has +2 from proficiency and nothing from his Strength. The numbers are correct, but the modifiers themselves are not shown correctly.

    Same here. The number is correct, but the single modifiers are not shown correctly.
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