the Keep?

TSHawk

Hey everyone I need some help here. I just have restarted playing baldur's gate II: Shadows of Amn on Steam. It has been over 20 years but I am in a section that I don't remember. It is also not listed in the old Bioware versus book that I have for the game as well. After doing Nalia's quest I wasn't able to go back to Athakala or whatever so I went to windspear. No I haven't completed that but I was just trying to get back to the city to start chapter 3. However a side quest showed up taking me Southwest to a keep for Helm. Now the Priest of Helm said that my character wasn't strong enough to take on the challenge even though my character has been foretold as the savior. This quest isn't in the guide book at all so is this a new quest?

jmerry

That's Watcher's Keep. It belongs to the expansion campaign "Throne of Bhaal", but newer versions of the game incorporate that expansion automatically, and this one part of it is accessible in both campaigns.

Throne of Bhaal is designed to take the player and their party from the end of Shadows of Amn all the way to the brink of godhood. Finishing the Shadows of Amn campaign will automatically take the character and their party into ToB.

So, what does this mean for Watcher's Keep? Watcher's Keep is one gigantic dungeon. And it's high-level content, like everything in the expansion. If you haven't built up some strength, you'll find it very hard indeed. You might want to go there anyway, to pick up some of the excellent loot - the first level alone has quivers of unlimited +1 arrows and bolts, a container (ammo belt) to hold 2000 pieces of ammunition, and a returning +3 dart, all before you even get to the level's boss fight. But you'll still want a few more levels under your belt. Level 10 will get you past that priest's dialogue, and I'd recommend at least level 15 for the best experience. In the first level, that is. Deeper down, the challenges ramp up.

atcDave

As the OP mentioned, they won’t let you in below a certain level (9th? 12th? I don’t recall)

But it is an excellent source of experience and loot. I usually head there right after the Underdark.

OrlonKronsteen

You can get into Watcher's Keep at any level. If you are low level one of the Helmites (Odren?) will suggest that perhaps you don't have enough experience, but one of the dialogue choices is something like, "No one tells me what I can or can't do, Odren." And you get in. I've gone there almost straight from Chateau Irenicus.

atcDave

Oh that had to be brutal!

OrlonKronsteen

Back in the day, playing unmodded, core rules, one of my challenges was to try to get through it before at least the end of chapter 2. One time I went almost right after getting out of Chateau Irenicus (I stayed in Athkatla long enough to recruit Jan, Viccy, and Edwin, then go on a shoplifting spree to get the best gear) and made it all the way through. But I used a LOT of reloads and even more cheddar. And I only got all the way through the one time. Usually, I'd get bogged down on some of the other levels.

atcDave

There’s just so many brutally hard fights in that thing! The first level isn’t too bad, but even then fight with all the statues can be tricky. Between the teleport maze and the final seal battles, just ooof.
And role playing wise I can’t abandon Imoen for that long!
But you sure would come out of it pretty tough. Probably gain 5 levels or so? And so much stuff.

OrlonKronsteen

At least five levels. My memory is that I had HLAs by the lower levels and abusing spike traps (I could never have finished it otherwise). I hope I'm remembering everything correctly. Maybe I did leave for a while on that run... Hmm... But your point about levels and coming out tough is right: a lot of players avoid WK early because the rest of SOA can seem trivial with all that experience and gear. I usually at least grab things from the first floor. With SCS (even a light install), there's no way I can get past the first couple levels before leaving for Spellhold.

Dharius

I tried it with a level 12 party recently and it was more or less fine until you meet the cornugons and pit fiends on the compass (3rd) level. I was unable to get past them without cheating, and I tried MANY TIMES. After that it was quite easy - I was able to get through the rest of the dungeon up to Lum's machine where I stopped to do the main quests in Athkatla and got to more appropriate levels before attempting the keep level five.

Interestingly the adversaries are scaled down for lower level parties:

* There are less statues on level one which is a shame because you earn less magical treasure! (But you still get Usuno's Blade and Foebane). I think that the spiders and jellies are less powerful versions too.
* On level two the fire giants and golems are replaced by Sahuagin (which carry decent loot including magical bolts), Rakshasa and the very interesting Desert Trolls who are immune to fire and can only be killed by acid! The Desert Trolls were a welcome challenge as I didn't find them anywhere else in SoA or ToB
* On level three the Demon Wraith has less spirit allies (thankfully) and there are less Demon Knights accompanying the Cambion (which again means less magical treasure sadly).
* There was very little scaling down on level four - by then though my party was at a higher level so this might have had something to do with it.

I think it's good to have a verbal warning from Ordren before entering, although as mentioned above you can ignore him if you want to.

atcDave

The scaling is interesting. I’ve never waited until ToB, does it scale up again then?
I have the old Versus Guide, dates back to the original release of the game, and the experience totals it lists throughout the Keep are wildly over stated. I always just assumed the totals were adjusted down between when they wrote the guide and the game was released. (Seriously, you’d probably all gain 10 levels if it were accurate!) But maybe those numbers are accurate if you save it for very late?

jmerry

The scaling is all based on level/number checks for the party when you first enter the area.

The altar level goes into easy mode - half the statues, swap the four spawn points for spawn points with easier monsters in the same place - if your party has less than five members or an average level below 14.

The elemental level goes into easy mode - swap the four spawn points for easier versions - if your party has less than five members or an average level below 14.

On the maze level, the threshold is an average party level of 16. Above, you get the full-strength encounters. At or below, you get weaker versions. In the cambion room, four demon knights are reduced to two. In Tahazzar's room, the yochlol and quasits despawn. In Ka'rashur's room, the imps despawn. In the wraith room, five slave wraiths are reduced to three.

The rest of the dungeon has no level checks. The bottom levels are always at full difficulty.

Dharius

While the desert Trolls were interesting (not sure if they are mentioned In Elminster's Ecologies or not but they should be, along with Fire Trolls which you find in Yaga Shura's lair) I think that on the whole the tougher opponent sets yield better xp and treasure e.g. the Sahuagin carry magical bolts but the fire giants have very valuable armour and gems.

Therefore I doubt I'll ever try a lower level attempt at watchers keep again...even if the spirits accompanying the Demon wraith are very annoying, what with their level drains. IiRC I think on the low level run I bypassed the Demon wraith completely by simply running for the exit while picking up all the loose treasure from the ground using the quickloot option...how crass.

I was also able to befriend Tahazzar so didn't have to fight him and his allies. I didn't bother with Saladrex or the Demi Lich (although the latter could probably have been defeated without trouble by a single character using a Protection from Undead Scroll and +4 weapon) However, I chose the violent option with Aesgareth and quite easily beat him and his pals though, using some rather cheesy hit and run/divide and conquer tactics. Nishruu conjuring from my protagonist mage helped here against the spellcasters a lot. The Githyanki and their leader were very simple to overcome using mid/low level mage area effect spells like Web, Fireball, Acid Fog and Cloudkill - I was surprised how quickly they went down using a single spellcaster.

I'm fairly sure that the cornugons/pit fiends mark the limiting point for lower level parties anyway. I just couldn't find a decent way of beating them with the spells and equipment I had, and the main reason was that these combats occur in dead magic zones, which destroy all chances of buffing your party. With buffing it would probably be possible.

OrlonKronsteen

I find levels 3 and 5 the worst, overall. One thing about level scaling: usually it makes sense and seems consistent - different numbers of statues, demon knights, etc., depending on level. But sometimes on the very first level you get a brutal spawn regardless of level: vampiric mists or wraiths (I forget exactly which and am too tired lazy to Google at this moment). Whatever they are, they'll tear your party a new one in seconds if you aren't high level. I find half the time I get the usual mephits and weaker mists, but about half the time I get those vampiric bastards. Now that I play minimal reload with BG2, I'm really paranoid about Watcher's Keep. I can't recall if Farsight is useful for checking spawn areas...

Edit: I had to repost this because the original ended up with weird formatting.

atcDave

Very interesting 0n the scaling. I don’t think I’ve ever hit the lower end encounters, but no doubt some of the wanderings (vampiric mists!) are much harder than others.
And Dharius you hit the nail on the head with the Demi-Lich. If I have a “Protection from Undead” he’s toast, otherwise ignore. I usually play paladins (or have Keldorn) so befriending a demon isn’t going to work for me! I usually get a big kick out of watching my cavalier tear through those bullies.
The final seal battles are the worst, most likely to hit reload.
Sometimes I go whup Mr D, but I think that’s usually poor role playing. I prefer to seal him away.

jmerry

OrlonKronsteen wrote: »

But sometimes on the very first level you get a brutal spawn regardless of level: vampiric mists or wraiths (I forget exactly which and am too tired lazy to Google at this moment).

That's a bug. Basically, the area script deactivates the offending spawn point, but it can only do so after you've entered the area. And since that point is pretty close to the door, it sometimes spawns its monsters before the script can get to it.
Previous discussion here.

OrlonKronsteen

Ugh. Is there a way to avoid the spawn, e.g. staying as close to the entrance as possible and waiting a few seconds?

jmerry

As far as I know, no. By the time you have a chance to act at all, it's already too late.

Dharius

Yeah, killing the Imprisoned One is a potentially dangerous thing to do as he's essentially freed after that by returning to the Abyss and after a time coming back to other planes. Luckily this has no implications in SoA/ToB.

But the battle is a great challenge, one of the toughest in the series. Nearly impossible for low level parties though.

jmerry

Unless you just set a bunch of spike traps, that is. Instant win as soon as it starts.

Dharius

Haha! Never tried that (probably never will )

Dharius

PS Not sure but if you can reach the end of the third level without entering the rooms with the Balor/Cornugons/fiends (or entering and finding a way to sneak past the monsters) then a low level Keep run without cheating might be possible.

I really wouldn't (and didn't) attempt anything on level five though, especially the adversaries associated with the three final seals. I usually wait until at least about level 20 before trying with a full party.

jmerry

There's no way to avoid the dead magic rooms. They're on either side of Tahazzar's room, so the only way to reach him is to pass through one of those - either the room with Purifier and a fight between cornugons and a balor, or the room with a mixed pack of baatezu. Maybe you could slip through the former avoiding the ongoing fight, but that's still risky with the spells the fiends throw around.

atcDave

That’s funny Dharius, I would not have ranked the Demogorgan fight as very hard. Much easier than two of the final seal fights on the level above! Maybe an occasional reload, but not usually. I don’t use the spikes traps, but last time I faced him I did have a Cavalier, and Keldorn. He chunked nicely.
But I have encountered a number of fights where my experience varied greatly depending on my party mix. Sometimes a “very easy” fight becomes “very hard” with one or two key characters switched out.

Dharius

Nah, for me it was definitely the other way around. One of the seals has that really nasty archer, monk (or is it a succubus?) and fighter which admittedly caused problems, but I usually fix that by summoning a wall of undead and aerial servants beforehand and my usual highly dubious hit and run tactics with the fabled pause button.

It may be my party makeup that made the Imprisoned One more difficult than you might think. The first time I ever beat him was with a party of six containing no arcane spellcasters, which isn't very orthodox...I'm not sure I had a thief either.

Cavaliers make great protagonists: they don't really have any disadvantages at all and their bonuses against demons may have tipped things in your favour.

At the risk of repeating myself and sounding boring, for me it was those unavoidable dead magic zones that provided the insurmountable hurdle for the low level run. As mentioned by jmerry they cannot be sidestepped, so the only solution may be to rely on a lot of perks from permanent magic items e.g. boots of speed to overcome the fiends or outrun them. And depending on the party history you may or not have them in your possession at the time.

Maybe I'll take another look at this scenario on the next run through.

On the other seal challenges I usually find the lich and those weird cold wielding mage/warrior fights rather easy, but then I know where and how they're coming by experience....buffing and mass haste usually do the trick. The cold mage has to be taken out first though otherwise it wreaks havoc.

Also with the dead magic zones I don't really understand why the fiends can cast spells like agannazar's scorcher and we can't, but I guess it makes it more interesting...

atcDave

For the demon it’s somehow innate and not an effect? Obviously, it’s a trick to make it tougher!
Sorry, I forgot we started with the low level theme. No doubt the anti-magic rooms add to the difficulty, maybe the lack of spellcasters didn’t hurt you too much? But obviously they are needed for the seal battles. The lich is the easiest of the bunch, but still tough without anti-magic I would think.