Bard Lovers - who is your favorite bard kit and how do you like to play bards?
wildernesswoodelf
Member Posts: 28
I've seen so many people on these forums suggesting bards, but I never tried one myself. Just by picking up Garrick in BG1 and playing around, they seemed underpowered to me. Also the fact that they can't use past level 7 spells seems frustrating.
But you guys swear by them, so I thought why not give it a try. What do you guys like about bards and what is your favorite way of playing them?
But you guys swear by them, so I thought why not give it a try. What do you guys like about bards and what is your favorite way of playing them?
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For spell casting, although their progression is “slow” and capped at 6th level spells; but they gain levels quickly. So especially through the middle levels they can compete with the mage.
For fighting, they have good weapons versatility. So you want a mage with a bow, or crossbow, the bard can do that.
And they can pick pockets. Depending on play style, that might or might not make a big difference.
Bard song can be useful, although admittedly I would usually rather them cast a spell or shoot an arrow.
I chose Skald as my favorite because I like the Norse imagery. I have no doubt Blade will win your poll.
But a Bard has more flair and requiers a bit more thought. Thus experienced players are likely to get the most out of them and appreciate their effort needed
I like a good Blade myself.. and i very recently played through all of BG1 and SoD, in an attempted full saga run.
Now that I'm in BG2 I am considering using editor to make it into a FMT because the novelty of the bard class has passed and it often has me sitting there "why didn't i just go fmt.. or FT.. or Swashbuckler"
I don't like having to prebuff to kill trash mobs, I don't like having to use 4-5 different spells to be useful in a melee, i don't like having to rest after every 1-2 encounters (if the Blade is to be battle buffed) and I don't like any of the NPC thieves available to me sans Imoen, so when i am "almost" a thief it really sucks to not actually be one.
You may wonder why i even like Blades at this point, but i do.. i really do. They're just.. a lot of work if they are to stay relevant in the group.. but when you -do- put the work in they can completely alter any encounter like no other class can.
But I think bards should be roleplayed instead of power gamed. You get your own theater for goodness sake!
Eh, I mean in terms of roleplaying, they always just seemed like a Medieval hipsters to me lol
Thinking of bards always made me think of Edward from Final Fantasy 4 and his characteristic ability to "hide" (which was basically his most useful ability)
But people tend to think that they're much better than Paladins - and I personally much prefer a Paladin from a roleplaying perspective.
Paladins are extremely powerful.. and Blades can be too, different strength to play on.
The only class that can objectively be said to be better than the rest is mage/sorc because their power output just has no equal.
If you want single class tanks then rangers and paladins are great with 85% physical damage resistance.. if you want utility then Bards are for you.. if you just want power then mages.
In BG2 Paladins can be difficult to rp, because you're going to make some choices and get some allies that make absolutely no sense for a Paladin, but you know.. ye olde shoehorn.
Also, typically Paladinhood/Knighthood is earned over time, whereas you start as a Paladin straight out of Candlekeep which is a little weird.
It's also hard to RP Lawful Good because I love having my thief steal stuff lol.
But regarding Bards, people often say that it's the most fun class, hence why I wanted to give them a shot. The idea of owning a theater never really appealed to me, but I like the idea of people able to cast spells AND wield a katana. Sounds pretty bada**
I'd also add the Paladin is an absolute blast to play in BG2. You have many choices to make that are "lesser of two evil" sorts, yet there is always a way to play it through and stay the good guy. I find it very satisfying!
*It occurred to me after posting, your comment may have something to do with later editions of D&D? So obviously, I'm an AD&D guy. If this is just about different expectations from different rulesets, I get it.
- You have a large party (preferrably the full 6);
- Your party members do a lot of attacking during combat (as opposed to debuffs and offensive spells);
- Your party has several Warriors or Warrior multi/dual classes;
- You use summons*;
- You rest sparingly (this ups the value of unlimited resources compared to limited resources like a Mage's spells);
- You micromanage your Bard so it can attack and sing in the same round.
If you're making choices on the basis of power level then, with the exception of the Blade, I don't see the point in taking a Bard over a Mage if your party and playstyle are such that the Bard Song won't do very much. I guess it's worth adding that they can still be very useful if you have them join the party to identify and/or pickpocket a bunch of items and kick them out of the party immediately afterwards.Garrick is underpowered, which helped sour me on the Bard when I played back in the days of (non-EE) Baldur's Gate 1.
*ETA: In the case of the Skald, but not the unkitted Bard (unless the later is using the Enhanced Bard Song HLA).
- Skald song, Blade song, and Enhanced Bard Song work on all allies within a standard medium AoE. The bard has to be pretty close to the action, but can help everybody in range.
- Vanilla bard song works on all party members on the map. Unlimited range, but summons don't get anything out of it.
When I ran my "Wee Cant Spell" party, which banned all arcane and divine spellcasting, I brought along bards in both BG1 and BG2 (Garrick and Haer'Dalis). Full party? Check. Lots of warriors? Check - five of them. Focus on unlimited resources? Check - they basically only ever rested when a party member became fatigued.
The bards got very few kills, and hardly ever did anything but sing. They were absolutely indispensable.
Not so long ago I did a run in IWD:EE on Insane (no XP or damage increase), which was the first time I played the game, using an unkitted Bard together with a F/C, F/D, F/M, F/T, and a Paladin. My Bard was particularly awesome because IWD improves unkitted Bards, but it would've been pretty good even without the IWD-specific bonuses. I read the BG1 part of "Wee Cant Spell", by the way. Other people's playthroughs are generally not my thing, but the themed playthroughs + puns are often good for a laugh.
Granted, any bard sans Jester is a poor choice in solo now thanks to all the efforts to curtail stealing/pickpocketing and the fact that bards scale with teammates better than any other class. Bring a warrior with 10 APR and your Blade is suddenly doing a potential extra 40 damage per round thanks to Enhanced Bard Song and a singing image. Bring three warrior-types can you're potentially doing an extra 120 damage passively. Hell, you can even have your wizard/cleric/druid buddies join the fun with Energy Blades.
That's bonkers-level powerful that easily puts bards above most classes, and the Skald is already doing some variation of this as early as BG1.
Finally, there's a big lull around the later part of SoA (which you likely reached earlier because you solo) where the bard pretty much just IS an F/M, up until HLAs enter the picture. After you've used your thieving abilities to get you that early game advantage then as the F/M slowly catches up then both classes play similarly.
And then ToB hits and you're suddenly swimming in high level gear and Potions of Heroism. At that point the blade once again becomes its own distinct archetype. If the F/M is more of scrapper, then the blade is more of a finesse fighter with the final fantasy equivalent of "limit breaks" thanks to trap HLAs, Offensive Spin + some configuration that gives you crazy damage/APR, gear stat stacking and potion chugging.
The Jester is unfortunately a victim of attempts to D&D-ify BG2 more, which is unfortunate because the BG games originally went out of their way to apply the rule of fun over sticking to traditional D&D rules (hell, most of the mid-high level ruleset that the BG games use simply did not exist in traditional D&D, which is why your bard never gets spellcasting over level 6 for example - the rules are simply not defined, and no one bothered to create one in the tradition of the original BG games).
It cannot use its song to create significant combat advantage the way Skalds can (at least not until much higher levels) and it lacks the combat abilities of the Blade. Once upon a time Jesters had a fallback -Invisibility+singing, which brought up some interesting tactical options.
Because bards are very squishy when they don't cast those defensive spells. Not a problem when you're standing back to sing and sling spells, but it's a big deal if you're trying to fight in melee. Thieves can keep the heat off them with stealth, but bards don't have that option. When you walk up to the enemy, they'll see you coming. And that means they're very likely to hit back.
You talk about offensive potential, but that's not what you need to buff every time. Defense is. Going into melee without your defenses up, as any sort of bard, is always a serious risk.
You essentially have unlimited cash and a guaranteed early game advantage if you know your way around stealing mechanics, so use it. It's not as strong as it used to be, but it's still there.
But this is actual combat stuff and not prebuffing. I don't cast every important defensive buff unless I'm fighting super-powerful enemies, mostly it's just Stoneskin/AC buffs and the occasional SI:X.
So the difference between being an S tier class and a C tier class is the quality of the song - therefore the song is the only good thing about the bard?
The logic behind how the Jester is low tier is similar to the logic behind how your nose is critical to keeping you alive (and is therefore S+ tier) - very, very few people would appreciate having a second nose, or something that requires extra steps to do the very same things that your nose is doing.
The nose example is a very poor analogy because it isn't comparing multiple classes of thing against one another as the jester is being compared against other bards and failing due to one attribute.
Suppose that x, y, and z are a type of forest, and all contain 4 trees.
These are oak, maple, birch, and willow.
We say that Y and Z are among the most beautiful forests in the world, but X is among the ugliest forest in the world.
X, Y, and Z all have excellent oak, maple, and birch, but X happens to have ugly willow.
It must be the case that willow is a very important tree in determining the beauty of the forest, because it is the only difference between X vs Y + Z.
Haven't tried in EE thought.
Jesters is ultimately more useful I think, because even with the minor save penalties (that can be mitigated with spells anyway) a constant AOE mind spell with multiple saves is very valuable in a large number of cases and never really stops being so. I think people are underestimating this one actually, I had a good bit of fun soloing a lot of SoA with it and it was more or less a breeze. Passively sing via a clone as early as possible.
-You get no pickpocket penalty, which means (beyond all the shop pickpocket abuse) you can constantly pickpocket charmed enemy weapons (you can change the equipped weapon beforehand to allow it to be stolen, if the enemy is a humanoid). Blades and Skalds get a brutal penalty to it, which means you can only ever use the skill with potions (which is clunky to use constantly in combat).
-The Jester song is SO absurdly powerful in BG2EE, that it's better than the high-level ability song that's meant to replace it. Get yourself 9 APR (two +1APR weapons, Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization and Improved Haste) and you can just run around singing and then proceed to do 9 unmissable attacks on whatever enemy happens to fall asleep (I always do this against Fire Giants in ToB). Hell, if you wanna be real cheesy, you can use the Bard Hat to make it 18 free hits (as the sleep will last 2 rounds). Who cares if there's a +2 to the save? It's UNLIMITED! And anything that ignores Magic Resistance in this game is also guaranteed to be crazy. Plus, sleep is one of the least resisted status effects out there, it works on almost anything that's not an undead/golem.
-The Jester song is still pretty damn good in BGEE, confusion might not be the best status effect, but combine it with a ranged weapon and suddenly you can: confuse, start shooting confused enemies, sing again, confuse, start shooting again etc.. The best way to use confusion is to stay far away, so you don't get targeted and the enemies either walk aimlessly or hit each other.
Don't get me wrong, I love Skalds, unkitted Bards and Blades as well. But the Jester song is way too unique and way too good. The Skald song is something even Jesters get with HLA's (if they want to lose the Jester song) and even the Blades' unique "Kai" effect can be replaced eventually via the Headband of the Devout's Righteous Magic ability in ToB. In fact, the most unique Bard ability besides the Jester song might be the unkitted Bard song, with its unusually huge bonus to luck!
Sure, but you can still do it with a Vhailor Clone, once you get Use Any Item (though that's quite a bit later, ofc). But if you're a Jester you should sing with your actual character instead (due to the level drain of the clone, which means a weaker song unless you're super high level) and fight with the clone.
But what you CAN do early though, is sing with the Jester and let your summons mop up slowed+confused enemies (yes, the Slow spell exists, but your song goes through Magic Resistance and you also get confusion). Bards level up fast, which means you can get the best Animate Dead skeletons early and the level 6 Invisible Stalker spell lasts 9 hours, meaning you can make the most out of your few level 6 slots by summoning them, resting and summoning more of them. And, ofc, there are plenty of great summons you can get via gear (lesser elementals, efreeti etc.).