Swashbuckler doesn't gain extra attacks?
szb
Member Posts: 220
Swashbucklers can specialize in weapons but it seems that they do not gain the +1/2 attack as in the desciption.
Possible bug?
Possible bug?
0
Comments
Basically if you arent bothered about backstabbing, then the swashbuckler is superior to a regular thief. The other two thief kits are useless in BG1 as they dont get their advantages until much higher levels. Swashbucklers also make a very strong class for dual classing purposes, either to a mage or fighter, or even to a cleric, but this isnt as popular. When the passive levels are reactivated, you gain thieving skills plus the AC, specialization, and hit and damage bonuses on your second class, all of which are like turboboosting your second class.
For one thing, backstabbing is easily the thief's third most useful ability. Second, I don't find them effective in the slightest. They are basically a shitty version of a Fighter/Thief. Plus, no one actually wants to play a Swashbuckler, they just want to dual-class it to a Swashbuckler/Mage or whatever.
I've never had to use backstabs to beat the game.
Fighter / Thieves do not gain the AC and damage bonuses that swashbucklers do. Same with thieves. You can kill mages quicker than poison can by simply using set snares. No they actually dont, they can still set traps
That said, I do agree that the F/T multi is better, it's just that Swashbucklers are perfectly capable of handling anything that even a heavily modded game can throw at them.
Overrated? Perhaps. Ineffective? Not a chance.
I'm playing a Swashbuckler (Elf so not planning to dual class) mainly for flavor purposes, though even with faster level progression they are mechanically weaker compared to Fighter/Thieves.
To compensate for the single APR I feel taking TWF is important (where I would have otherwise taken Single Weapon for flavor) but the lack of proficiency points as @Mungri pointed out can make maxing TWF difficult
My current plan is to specialize in one weapon, max out TWF and throw a point in shortbows for good measure.
TL;DR Fighter/Thief is mechanically superior, but I like the flavor of the Swashbuckler so I'm enjoying it for what it is
However, all thieves and thief kits are weaker than a fighter / thief, not just the swashbuckler. If you dont want to backstab, then a swashbuckler is always better than having a plain rogue. If you want to backstab then play assassin, if you like traps then try a bounty hunter. There is basically no reason at all to play an unkitted rogue.
Fighter/Thief is more of unilateral gain over Swashbucklers (which is basically a thief with fighter attributes) as opposed to a Mage who's focus is on spellcasting, especially when single classed mages have the option to specialize as well as gain more mage levels and focus on their primary skill.
That said I'm not complaining the Swashbuckler is 'weaker' than a Fighter/Thief persay, just making it known.
The Swashbuckler kit is focused, well done and quite effective at achieving it's aims. If you want a finesse thief who prefers style and upfront fighting to backstabs then this kit will deliver.
I said that if you dont care about backstabbing, a swashbuckler is far stronger that a pure unkitted thief (no multi or dual class).
He's called a swashbuckler
It's a perfectly viable and rewarding class kit, I always go back to it eventually
That is, unless you go mage/thief, and then you can invis/buff yourself before fights, which makes you generally better.
So I'd overall prefer to have a Swashbuckler over a standard thief simply because backstab isn't as good in 2nd ed as sneak attack dice are in 3rd ed, especially at lower levels.
In BG2 I dual classed from Sb to figher at higher levels, but in BG1 it's best to do it immediatly, i.e. at level 2.
My main character has now 13.000 xp and is MUCH better than a pure fighter of the same XP:
- 2 more weapon proficiencies (making for a great dual wielder from the early game on)
- 1 bonus to AC
- 90% in lockpicking, enough to open all locks in BG1
Only disadvantage:
- 8 less HP's
I do agree that the fighter/thief multi is better than a pure swashbuckler or swash+fighter dual. Swashbuckler really shines when dualed to mage or cleric. That's really what it's meant for. If we're talking about thief classes, the way the BG series is, it's never necessary to go pure thief. So of course a dual or multi will be better.
The reason I like them is because I only need a thief for convenience, and the few locks you can't bust. They aren't exactly the most powerful class at end game, given that (as was mentioned before) the actually challenging opponents are immune to backstab and/or traps.
So what you get is essentially a pure fighter with lockpicking/trap finding skill, that can use the odd extra item or two. Not the worst deal!
As for pure Swashbucklers, I agree that they are somewhat lackluster. Whirlwind is worse than Improved Haste and UAI is in fact quite overrated. Traps are fun for non-powergamers I suppose, but not useful in tackling the most difficult fights.
It can :
- Set traps
- Has a huge bonus to thaco and damage (+8 damage / +8 THACO is nothing to sneeze at)
- Has a great AC
- Gets use any item
in BG, they still get +2 damage / +2 Thaco, a nice AC and can set trap (Or detect illusions, but in BG1 it doesn't matter much, in BG2 with SCS, where mages use spell immunity : divination, this becomes quite useful)
A Swashbuckler->Fighter on the other hand will retain +2 damage/THAC0, while also gaining a lot of HP, extra APR, Grandmaster proficiency, and, more importantly, the Critical Strike HLA. This ability is nothing short of amazing. Given that you don't use Whirlwind because it's worse than Improved Haste, you pick Critical Strike pretty much every time (maybe a Hardiness every now and then). Soon you will have enough to last a considerable time, adding a TON of damage output. Note that having all attacks be critical hits also means that ALL attacks will hit (since a 20 always connects).
I guess this is a similar discussion to what I've seen with several other classes... pure kits simply can't seem to compete with dual-classed versions of that kit
It's just a very powerful class.
Sure, you can dual, but if you want UAI, that means dualing after level 24. Quite a pain to play this way.
Play a pure swash, and then tell me they don't destroy everything better then a warrior can. In BG1, they're held back due to the lack of natural attacks, but once you can get a pair of speed weapons in the sequel....only the kensai can beat them in shear ass-kicking, and nothing can touch them with regard to tanking aside maybe a blade. (Though Blades are technically the strongest class period, if you don't mind exploiting every single shoddy implemented rule, spell and decision the game has to offer). (their ac is so high by the time you get UAI, I usually trade out physical AC for wearing Jansen's armor for those ridiculously damage resistances, since even the highest thac0 enemies will only hit you 45% of the time with just your equipment/class AC, and only on crits if you actually buff up).
A 10 swash>Fighter dual is so laughably weak by comparison it doesn't even deserve mention in this discussion.