I've fallen in love with backstabbing on my recent no-reloads play through getting big backstabs against many fierce enemies including a 56 damage staff of the ram swing from Tiax against the demon knight at the end of durlags tower. Monty has got many more backstabs in and can now solo scout/disable with easy hit and run tactics.
Thief skills in BG1 are easy. 60 OL and 80 DT is enough when you include potions which are in abundance as loot or in stores. This leaves enough for everything except detect illusion.
A 10 swash>Fighter dual is so laughably weak by comparison it doesn't even deserve mention in this discussion.
Can you explain to me how this can be even remotely true? ALL a pure Swashbuckler gets over a Swashbuckler->Fighter is UAI and +6 damage (at lvl 40). How can this do more damage than someone using back-to-back Critical Strike ten times? Sure, they got traps, but the actually dangerous opponents are immune to traps anyway, and who cares about trapping random monsters. What does UAI add, really? Scarlet Ninja-to? Scrolls that you may or may not have spares of?
And as for your "pair of speed weapons" - I assume you mean the +APR ones? You know, the weapons that are at best +3, and mostly +2 enchanted, meaning you can't even hit quite a few of the significant enemies? And why would you take an extra one of them away from other party members anyway? Just leave them in the OH where they belong and use some proper weapons for the main hand.
So far your entire argument has been "I say so". I fail to see any actual evidence that would back up what you are saying, but feel free to add some.
Yeah, Swashbuckler's are undeniable powerful. Their +Dmg/To Hit/AC bonuses gets pretty ridiculously high. You're probably unlikely to hit the XP cap if you run big parties, but it's still easy to attain +7 Dmg, +7 To Hit, and -8 AC from the kit bonus by the end of ToB. Swashbucklers probably have the best unbuffed AC out of all the classes (with Blades surpassing them buffed and DC'ed Kensage rivaling them with Tenser's + Barkskin or one of the Armor spells).
However, from a purely offensive standpoint, their lack of APRs, mediocre base THAC0, inability to GM, and weapon selection negate some of those bonuses in comparison to some of the alternatives you can roll.
For weapon selection, FoA+5, in particular, just straight up out damages anything you can naturally mainhand with a SB. Nothing really comes close damage-wise, and blunt is better as a damage type (for to hit and DR purposes) than slashing or piercing. If you're worried about the Free Action blocking Imp Haste, you can buff yourself first and then swap to FoA - swapping to FoA doesn't remove Haste. Sure, a SB can equip it, too, but you'll lose your Weapon Spec bonus (+2 Dmg/+1 To Hit). The difference is even more pronounced if you want to spec into 2Handers (like Carsomyr... because you can =D ) or you want to use a different offhand like Crom Faeyr.
For a MC F/T, you would end up with 2-3 better overall THAC0 (Swashbuckler's cap out at 10 base THAC0) and 1.5 more APR (3 with Imp Haste). SB do get slightly better overall THAC0 progression up until that point and would get 7-8 more damage per hit, but the DPS gain from the MC's APR is easily better since you do ~20 damage per hit. They reach 9/2 APR (unbuffed) if they use Belm/Scarlet/Kundane. On top of that, they can backstab and wouldn't lose their Weapon Spec bonuses if they use FoA, Carsomyr, etc. They would also end up with ~15 more HP. They also get access to the fighter HLAs like Hardiness.
Assuming BG2EE keeps GM the same as BGEE or you have the true GM mod installed, DC Kensai (9) -> Thief (same max base THAC0 of 10 compared to SB) would have better or equal overall THAC0/damage until the SB hits lvl 30 (4.4M XP) because of GM and kit bonuses. They, however, get +2 APR and are able to backstab, at the cost of a big hit to AC until they get UAI (or get buffed with Barkskin). They reach 5 APR (unbuffed) if they use Belm/Scarlet/Kundane. They have ~50 more HP as well. They also can use the backstab HLA (Assassination) for overkill burst DPS, though a lot of the important enemies that you'll want to use it on are immune to backstabs by the time you get it...
A DC Kensai (13) -> Thief would always have better or equal THAC0. They just take forever to recover their inactive class if you're running a big party.
Overall, even if you ignore backstab, I think the alternatives are just a bit better from a pure offensive perspective primarily because APR contributes so much to DPS. SBs still have the undeniable edge AC-wise, though MC F/Ts do get Hardiness which probably outweighs AC in ToB.
Sometime I feel like I'm the only person who ever reads the manual.
Page 57. Weapon Specialization:
"Fighters, Paladins, Barbarians, and Rangers (as well as certain other class kits) can train and hone their weapon skills to higher levels than other classes. This is accomplished by assigning more proficiencies to a single weapon class. The following table shows the effects of specialization:"
And then there's a table... Skip ahead to the last footnote...
"**Note that Fighters, Rangers, Paladins, and Barbarians also gain an extra half-attack per round at 7th level in addition to the extra attacks from specialization. Non-warriors do not gain additional attacks based on specialization."
Pretty clear cut.
I tend to agree with subtledoctor about the mental image of a swashbuckler being one of speed. But I don't interpret thac0 and damage bonuses as implying strength instead of speed. Thac0 in particular is about finesse. Better skill, more likely to hit your target. And more damage could just as easily mean you're stabbing/cutting/bashing them in more damaging locations, hitting a vital organ instead of just creating a flesh wound.
Actually Swashbucklers cap at 2 thac0 (2 less then a fighter, 4 better then a cleric), not 10, like a normal rogue (they end up with +8 bonus thac0 from class benefits, and an additional +1 on top from specialization (total of 1, before other bonuses)).
And since they can specialize, GM only offers a +3 bonus over what a swash can achieve through proficiency, giving a max level swashy a +5 per hit advantage, rather then a st
Most enemies in the game can be hit by +2, and only a small number require +3 (it's almost as rare as +4...almost),...the few enemies that require +4 are so high level, you'll have whirlwind attack by then and can toss on whatever the hell weapon you want to, cast tenser's (easily enough scrolls to kill the 4 +4 required enemies) and then pop WWA (which isn't blocked by tenser's) and mash them into the floor with 10 attacks and like -15 thac0 using FoA, Crom Faeyr (which utterly blows away a fighter in damage if dual-wielded with FoA under WWA), or staff of the ram...whatever you want.
The swashbuckler's epic traps are just as broken as when used by any other thief, the final final battle is the only one it's actually difficult to use them during.
I would like to point out that at the bottom of the text about proficiencies on the side, it says "* All extra attacks are only available to warrior classes."
Though you need to scroll down to see it, Not sure why it's like that.
...I actually like the Swashbuckler kit. Not a Fighter, but it's supposed to be a Thief's kit. Not gimped in skill points like the Assassin or BountyHunter, not overpowered and cheesy. Nice stacking bonuses that actually reward you for being a single-class. The lack of backstab hurts, but not as much and it forces you can use different tactics and not to resort to all-time-favorite. Anyway, most dangerous mobs in ToB can't be back stabbed and the AC bonuses do actually get you to a point, where it helps against being hit.
I know, that this is a gaming forum and every single thread gets derailed to an argument about which cheesy combo is the cheesiest, because who does not powergame, should not even try to post on forums...but still.
...I actually like the Swashbuckler kit. Not a Fighter, but it's supposed to be a Thief's kit. Not gimped in skill points like the Assassin or BountyHunter, not overpowered and cheesy. Nice stacking bonuses that actually reward you for being a single-class. The lack of backstab hurts, but not as much and it forces you can use different tactics and not to resort to all-time-favorite. Anyway, most dangerous mobs in ToB can't be back stabbed and the AC bonuses do actually get you to a point, where it helps against being hit.
I know, that this is a gaming forum and every single thread gets derailed to an argument about which cheesy combo is the cheesiest, because who does not powergame, should not even try to post on forums...but still.
I like the Swashbuckler thief.
I'm playing an assassin at the moment and while that is fun its just not quite as fun as the swashbuckler.
in BG1 it's best to do it immediatly, i.e. at level 2.
My main character has now 13.000 xp and is MUCH better than a pure fighter of the same XP: - 2 more weapon proficiencies (making for a great dual wielder from the early game on) - 1 bonus to AC - 90% in lockpicking, enough to open all locks in BG1 Only disadvantage: - 8 less HP's
I did a swashbuckler 2 > fighter and he was amazing. You are a grandmaster in one weapon at fighter level 3. That's just awesome. Nashkell mines were a breeze with **** in Mace and the Stupifier). I poured all my points into open locks (its cumbersome, but you can take plate mail off to open doors and chests... You never unlock anything in combat), and I was able to dual Imoen at level 3 or 4 with a very high F/R Traps.
Endgame, I had a human fighter (minus exceptional strength, but that's remedied by reading a book), with 8 less HP, and a + 1 to AC and +1 hit/dmg, with 8 proficiency points to play with.
Except it's also engine oversight....the proficiency system isn't supposed to work that way. (Swash 2> Fighter should only be able to put a max of ** in any weapon if proficiencies were working properly. (which is one of the issues I hoped they would fix, in additon to restricting GM to single-class kitless fighters only, as per PnP).
Even if they don't fix anything else, that would be a major step in the right direction.
Except it's also engine oversight....the proficiency system isn't supposed to work that way. (Swash 2> Fighter should only be able to put a max of ** in any weapon if proficiencies were working properly. (which is one of the issues I hoped they would fix, in additon to restricting GM to single-class kitless fighters only, as per PnP).
Even if they don't fix anything else, that would be a major step in the right direction.
I played a lot of PnP back in the day, and there was only three different levels in a weapon: not proficient, proficient (*), and specialized (**). I know only fighters could gain specialization, but I don't remember fighters with kits being restricted from specializing.
Any level higher than specialization must have been added in another book. ::shrug::
The same book that adds the kits also introduces the expanded proficiency system (technically it also came out in the Player Option: Combat and Tactics) (up to grandmastery). And specifically states that only a single class, kitless fighter can go beyond specialization. The kits extra bonuses are already a form of specialization and it can't go any further then basic specialization. The archer is the only kit to say otherwise (can place up to *** in bows...which is absolute maximum anyone can place in bows and crossbows..even single class, kitless fighters).
(Bare in mind, specialization works differently for bows and x-bows in PnP then it does in BG. ** removes the penalty for firing at targets in close range and raises damage by +1 for close range shots, and *** removes the thac0 bonus an enemy gets when attacking you in melee while you're equipped with a bow...that's it...no generic extra damage, no bonus hit, no extra attacks)
By core rules, a single class fighter, and ONLY a single class fighter can specialize. (there are no kits in core rules). If you don't use the proficiency system, (optional in core rules) any weapon wielded by the fighter was considered specialized. Also, by core rules, MC part-fighters, paladin, and rangers couldn't specialize at all (their extra abilities were their main perk). And fallen paladin/rangers who immediately became fighters weren't able to specialize because they weren't fighters from creation.
A fighter that dual-classed retained any specialization he had achieved before dualing, but was bound by advancement of his new class, which means, a maximum of * to any new proficiencies. And an X>fighter can only achieve basic specialization, since he isn't single class anymore.
In brief.....GM is the exclusive of a single, true-class Fighter. It's their one and only perk. Kit's give it up in exchange for other perks via their kit abilities, in addition to receiving basic specialization.
Specialization and GM is also considered part of advancement, not a class feature. so it doesn't transfer to new classes, and multiclasses part-fighters can only specialize with proficiencies gained from fighter levels.
BG isn't PnP, though, even though it's based on it. There are fundamental differences, implemented both for balance reasons (only 1 human being involved) and for reasons of accessibility (less complexity/appeal to non-PnP gamers).
It's debatable whether the proficiency system should be copied true to PnP, or follow its own, BG-specific logic; arguably a more streamlined version akin to what is found in other, similar video games is more beneficial to the average player.
That being said, I do agree that kitless characters are underpowered; there is practically no reason to ever make one. This is a major design oversight to be sure, but it goes further than the weapon proficiency system.
I think at this point the system has become the default state for BG, and changing it would upset too many little things. There are certainly improvements to be made, and maybe someone will mod them, but simply comparing it to PnP is not exactly a valid solution.
The same book that adds the kits also introduces the expanded proficiency system (technically it also came out in the Player Option: Combat and Tactics) (up to grandmastery). And specifically states that only a single class, kitless fighter can go beyond specialization. The kits extra bonuses are already a form of specialization and it can't go any further then basic specialization. The archer is the only kit to say otherwise (can place up to *** in bows...which is absolute maximum anyone can place in bows and crossbows..even single class, kitless fighters).
(Bare in mind, specialization works differently for bows and x-bows in PnP then it does in BG. ** removes the penalty for firing at targets in close range and raises damage by +1 for close range shots, and *** removes the thac0 bonus an enemy gets when attacking you in melee while you're equipped with a bow...that's it...no generic extra damage, no bonus hit, no extra attacks)
By core rules, a single class fighter, and ONLY a single class fighter can specialize. (there are no kits in core rules). If you don't use the proficiency system, (optional in core rules) any weapon wielded by the fighter was considered specialized. Also, by core rules, MC part-fighters, paladin, and rangers couldn't specialize at all (their extra abilities were their main perk). And fallen paladin/rangers who immediately became fighters weren't able to specialize because they weren't fighters from creation.
A fighter that dual-classed retained any specialization he had achieved before dualing, but was bound by advancement of his new class, which means, a maximum of * to any new proficiencies. And an X>fighter can only achieve basic specialization, since he isn't single class anymore.
In brief.....GM is the exclusive of a single, true-class Fighter. It's their one and only perk. Kit's give it up in exchange for other perks via their kit abilities, in addition to receiving basic specialization.
Specialization and GM is also considered part of advancement, not a class feature. so it doesn't transfer to new classes, and multiclasses part-fighters can only specialize with proficiencies gained from fighter levels.
The first kits were introduced in the Complete Fighters Handbook, and I still don't recall anything about expanded proficiencies or restricting specialization from kits. For instance, I know Samurai could specialize in Katana and their bow ( name escapes me), Swashbucklers (yes, it was a fighter kit first) could specialize in Rapiers, Sabers, Épée, ect.
I could be wrong dude, but I knew those books pretty damn well.
They could specialize...not Grandmastery....GM was restricted plain, kitless fighters. Yeah, it just says the Kits assume you are using rules taken from Player Options: Combat and tactics, which explains more in depth about the proficiency systems used.
(Taken from PO: C&T)
Paladin, rangers, and multiclass fighters can spend up to two proficiency points to gain expertise in a weapon of their choice. Weapon expertise is like specialization, but only allows them to benefit from any extra attacks specialization would've given, but not hit or damage bonuses.
Specialization (**) can be chosen by any single class fighter or their kits. It grants +1 hit and +2 damage as well as +1/2 attack for melee weapons. Thrown weapons such as knives or darts, gain a full extra attack instead of 1/2. Bows and crossbows gain +1 to hit at all times, +2 initiative bonus to action time (-2 speed), and deal an additional +2 damage when the target is within close range and suffer no penalty for making close range shots.
Mastery (***) - Mastery and beyond are available only to single class fighters. (just describes the benefits)
Special DM Note: Mastery is extremely rare talents to develop, and should be restricted only to single-class fighters. Some fighter kits (Found in the Complete Book of Fighters supplement) specifically allow them to attain mastery, but only within a narrow range of weapons or having strong penalties associated with their class. When creating your own fighter kits, keep in mind that kits are already a form of advanced specialization and should not allow exceeding normal specialization, unless the kit is exceedingly narrow in their benefits focusing only on a single weapon type or style, or sacrificing other important class features.
High Mastery and above should never be allowed to fighter kits, as they already have all the extra benefits they need.
Comments
Thief skills in BG1 are easy. 60 OL and 80 DT is enough when you include potions which are in abundance as loot or in stores. This leaves enough for everything except detect illusion.
And as for your "pair of speed weapons" - I assume you mean the +APR ones? You know, the weapons that are at best +3, and mostly +2 enchanted, meaning you can't even hit quite a few of the significant enemies? And why would you take an extra one of them away from other party members anyway? Just leave them in the OH where they belong and use some proper weapons for the main hand.
So far your entire argument has been "I say so". I fail to see any actual evidence that would back up what you are saying, but feel free to add some.
However, from a purely offensive standpoint, their lack of APRs, mediocre base THAC0, inability to GM, and weapon selection negate some of those bonuses in comparison to some of the alternatives you can roll.
For weapon selection, FoA+5, in particular, just straight up out damages anything you can naturally mainhand with a SB. Nothing really comes close damage-wise, and blunt is better as a damage type (for to hit and DR purposes) than slashing or piercing. If you're worried about the Free Action blocking Imp Haste, you can buff yourself first and then swap to FoA - swapping to FoA doesn't remove Haste. Sure, a SB can equip it, too, but you'll lose your Weapon Spec bonus (+2 Dmg/+1 To Hit). The difference is even more pronounced if you want to spec into 2Handers (like Carsomyr... because you can =D ) or you want to use a different offhand like Crom Faeyr.
For a MC F/T, you would end up with 2-3 better overall THAC0 (Swashbuckler's cap out at 10 base THAC0) and 1.5 more APR (3 with Imp Haste). SB do get slightly better overall THAC0 progression up until that point and would get 7-8 more damage per hit, but the DPS gain from the MC's APR is easily better since you do ~20 damage per hit. They reach 9/2 APR (unbuffed) if they use Belm/Scarlet/Kundane. On top of that, they can backstab and wouldn't lose their Weapon Spec bonuses if they use FoA, Carsomyr, etc. They would also end up with ~15 more HP. They also get access to the fighter HLAs like Hardiness.
Assuming BG2EE keeps GM the same as BGEE or you have the true GM mod installed, DC Kensai (9) -> Thief (same max base THAC0 of 10 compared to SB) would have better or equal overall THAC0/damage until the SB hits lvl 30 (4.4M XP) because of GM and kit bonuses. They, however, get +2 APR and are able to backstab, at the cost of a big hit to AC until they get UAI (or get buffed with Barkskin). They reach 5 APR (unbuffed) if they use Belm/Scarlet/Kundane. They have ~50 more HP as well. They also can use the backstab HLA (Assassination) for overkill burst DPS, though a lot of the important enemies that you'll want to use it on are immune to backstabs by the time you get it...
A DC Kensai (13) -> Thief would always have better or equal THAC0. They just take forever to recover their inactive class if you're running a big party.
Overall, even if you ignore backstab, I think the alternatives are just a bit better from a pure offensive perspective primarily because APR contributes so much to DPS. SBs still have the undeniable edge AC-wise, though MC F/Ts do get Hardiness which probably outweighs AC in ToB.
Page 57. Weapon Specialization:
"Fighters, Paladins, Barbarians, and Rangers (as well as certain other class kits) can train and hone their weapon skills to higher levels than other classes. This is accomplished by assigning more proficiencies to a single weapon class. The following table shows the effects of specialization:"
And then there's a table... Skip ahead to the last footnote...
"**Note that Fighters, Rangers, Paladins, and Barbarians also gain an extra half-attack per round at 7th level in addition to the extra attacks from specialization. Non-warriors do not gain additional attacks based on specialization."
Pretty clear cut.
I tend to agree with subtledoctor about the mental image of a swashbuckler being one of speed. But I don't interpret thac0 and damage bonuses as implying strength instead of speed. Thac0 in particular is about finesse. Better skill, more likely to hit your target. And more damage could just as easily mean you're stabbing/cutting/bashing them in more damaging locations, hitting a vital organ instead of just creating a flesh wound.
Actually Swashbucklers cap at 2 thac0 (2 less then a fighter, 4 better then a cleric), not 10, like a normal rogue (they end up with +8 bonus thac0 from class benefits, and an additional +1 on top from specialization (total of 1, before other bonuses)).
And since they can specialize, GM only offers a +3 bonus over what a swash can achieve through proficiency, giving a max level swashy a +5 per hit advantage, rather then a st
Most enemies in the game can be hit by +2, and only a small number require +3 (it's almost as rare as +4...almost),...the few enemies that require +4 are so high level, you'll have whirlwind attack by then and can toss on whatever the hell weapon you want to, cast tenser's (easily enough scrolls to kill the 4 +4 required enemies) and then pop WWA (which isn't blocked by tenser's) and mash them into the floor with 10 attacks and like -15 thac0 using FoA, Crom Faeyr (which utterly blows away a fighter in damage if dual-wielded with FoA under WWA), or staff of the ram...whatever you want.
The swashbuckler's epic traps are just as broken as when used by any other thief, the final final battle is the only one it's actually difficult to use them during.
Though you need to scroll down to see it, Not sure why it's like that.
The lack of backstab hurts, but not as much and it forces you can use different tactics and not to resort to all-time-favorite. Anyway, most dangerous mobs in ToB can't be back stabbed and the AC bonuses do actually get you to a point, where it helps against being hit.
I know, that this is a gaming forum and every single thread gets derailed to an argument about which cheesy combo is the cheesiest, because who does not powergame, should not even try to post on forums...but still.
I like the Swashbuckler thief.
Endgame, I had a human fighter (minus exceptional strength, but that's remedied by reading a book), with 8 less HP, and a + 1 to AC and +1 hit/dmg, with 8 proficiency points to play with.
Enjoy.
(BTW, I wouldn't do this in BG2 in any form)
Even if they don't fix anything else, that would be a major step in the right direction.
Any level higher than specialization must have been added in another book. ::shrug::
(Bare in mind, specialization works differently for bows and x-bows in PnP then it does in BG. ** removes the penalty for firing at targets in close range and raises damage by +1 for close range shots, and *** removes the thac0 bonus an enemy gets when attacking you in melee while you're equipped with a bow...that's it...no generic extra damage, no bonus hit, no extra attacks)
By core rules, a single class fighter, and ONLY a single class fighter can specialize. (there are no kits in core rules). If you don't use the proficiency system, (optional in core rules) any weapon wielded by the fighter was considered specialized. Also, by core rules, MC part-fighters, paladin, and rangers couldn't specialize at all (their extra abilities were their main perk). And fallen paladin/rangers who immediately became fighters weren't able to specialize because they weren't fighters from creation.
A fighter that dual-classed retained any specialization he had achieved before dualing, but was bound by advancement of his new class, which means, a maximum of * to any new proficiencies. And an X>fighter can only achieve basic specialization, since he isn't single class anymore.
In brief.....GM is the exclusive of a single, true-class Fighter. It's their one and only perk. Kit's give it up in exchange for other perks via their kit abilities, in addition to receiving basic specialization.
Specialization and GM is also considered part of advancement, not a class feature. so it doesn't transfer to new classes, and multiclasses part-fighters can only specialize with proficiencies gained from fighter levels.
It's debatable whether the proficiency system should be copied true to PnP, or follow its own, BG-specific logic; arguably a more streamlined version akin to what is found in other, similar video games is more beneficial to the average player.
That being said, I do agree that kitless characters are underpowered; there is practically no reason to ever make one. This is a major design oversight to be sure, but it goes further than the weapon proficiency system.
I think at this point the system has become the default state for BG, and changing it would upset too many little things. There are certainly improvements to be made, and maybe someone will mod them, but simply comparing it to PnP is not exactly a valid solution.
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/6819/manual-discrepancies/p1
I could be wrong dude, but I knew those books pretty damn well.
(Taken from PO: C&T)
Paladin, rangers, and multiclass fighters can spend up to two proficiency points to gain expertise in a weapon of their choice. Weapon expertise is like specialization, but only allows them to benefit from any extra attacks specialization would've given, but not hit or damage bonuses.
Specialization (**) can be chosen by any single class fighter or their kits. It grants +1 hit and +2 damage as well as +1/2 attack for melee weapons. Thrown weapons such as knives or darts, gain a full extra attack instead of 1/2. Bows and crossbows gain +1 to hit at all times, +2 initiative bonus to action time (-2 speed), and deal an additional +2 damage when the target is within close range and suffer no penalty for making close range shots.
Mastery (***) - Mastery and beyond are available only to single class fighters. (just describes the benefits)
Special DM Note: Mastery is extremely rare talents to develop, and should be restricted only to single-class fighters. Some fighter kits (Found in the Complete Book of Fighters supplement) specifically allow them to attain mastery, but only within a narrow range of weapons or having strong penalties associated with their class. When creating your own fighter kits, keep in mind that kits are already a form of advanced specialization and should not allow exceeding normal specialization, unless the kit is exceedingly narrow in their benefits focusing only on a single weapon type or style, or sacrificing other important class features.
High Mastery and above should never be allowed to fighter kits, as they already have all the extra benefits they need.