Tweaks mod: Brainstorming thread
semiticgoddess
Member Posts: 14,903
This thread is for discussing what to include in a new tweaks mod. The end goal for creating the mod is to rebalance gameplay for the Baldur's Gate saga while still preserving the basic nature of vanilla gameplay. The idea is currently just a germ as of this writing, so we need to work out the specifics in this discussion.
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Self-imposed constraints can be claustrophobic, difficult to balance, and tempting to break. By nerfing the most overpowered tools, we can promote diversity in powergaming and hopefully make for a more interesting experience.
A few examples are famously overpowered, and I suspect that most people who would install a rebalancing tweaks mod would agree that at least some kind of nerf for them makes sense:
Arrows of Detonation
Arrows of Dispelling
Wands of Fire/Monster Summoning/Paralyzation
The One Gift Lost
Protection from Magic/Undead scrolls
Greenstone Amulet
Durlag's Goblet
Robe of Vecna
Cloak of Mirroring
Staff of the Magi
Some things, like Insect Plague and an Inquisitor's Dispel Magic, are already nerfed by other mods, like SCS. Other things, like Protection from Magical Weapons, Spell Immunity, and Hardiness, arguably shouldn't be nerfed despite their power because they are core to normal gameplay or there simply isn't an alternative to them.
This is just a starting point. The mod may become very broad over time, but the changes will be customizable so that players can opt out of changes they find unappealing.
How much damage should a fireball do?
How many times should you be able to launch a fireball per round, per fight, or per playthrough)?
When and where should a player be able to obtain one of these items?
How much should these items cost?
I think the way to answer these question is to establish explicit adequacy criteria and then endeavor to satisfy those criteria.
Here are my proposed adequacy criteria:
1. For arcane characters, item based energy attacks should not be a primary tool, but a supplement. The should deepen the spell book, not supplant it. They should be less potent than a comparable spell cast from the book, but should compensate for that with a low activation time, uninteruptibility, and a lower opportunity cost (ie- they don’t crowd out another spell)
2. For non arcane characters, consumable energy attacks should be precious, limited resources- a difference maker in key encounters, but not a go to tool for every battle. Wearable charged items should be marginally/moderately helpful flavor items, not battle winners
3. For parties, item based energy attacks should not effectively win every major fight.
To meet these criteria we’d need to do the following:
A. Arcane Wands
I. Damage should scale with level and should be calibrated against comparably leveled arcane spells. They should do less damage than comparably leveled spells
II. The total number of wands should be small, but non trivial. I propose one of each. The most powerful ones should not be available until after Baldur’s Gate
III. Total available charges need to be DRASTICALLY reduced relative to the unmodded adventure. I’d support making the wands one charge per day items IFF the above criteria are satisfied (ie- small number, weaker than spells). If we do not reduce the number available and or the power they should be one and done consumable items.
B. Arrows of Detonation, Oils of Fire Burning, ETC
I. We should pay close attention to the number available at each stage of the adventure (ex- Candlekeep to the Cloakwood Mines, etc). The total excepted damage provided by all of them summed should be compared to the hitpoint pools of enemies in the major storyline fights. The total expected damage should be 1/2 to 2/3 of that required to win the hardest storyline fight in that segment. Thus, they can’t win the toughest fight alone, and there are tradeoffs between fights within a segment or between segments.
C. One Gift Lost and The Victor
I. One Gift Lost should not be available prior to Baldur’s Gate. I’d support making it a one use per rest item, if the total damage were reduced. Otherwise, it should be unrechargeable and have a small number of charges (3 at the most)
II. The Victor. The power level of 4, found in the original adventure, should be re-instated so that it can be blocked by spell protections. If so, I’d support making it a one charge per day item. If not, it should be unrechargeable and have at most 4 charges.
We can make fireball items scale with level. If we wanted them to be weaker than spells, we could make them deal 1d4 damage per level instead of 1d6--a 33% decrease in overall damage compared to an actual Fireball. We could also do 1d6 per two levels, which would be a more severe nerf.
Should the One Gift Lost be weaker than a wand? Should it still strike as a level 9 effect?
I think it would be neat to have two wands of each kind. Bear in mind that we can put wands anywhere in this mod, so we could put a second Wand of Fire/Frost/whatever deep in Durlag's Tower, or on Balduran's Isle.
But I think we shouldn't move item locations around too much, lest the tweaks mod dramatically shift the metagame routing.
Putting a decent item in the Firewine Ruins, though, would be a great way to make the place worth visiting. I haven't bothered setting foot inside that place in many years, just because there's nothing worth looting in there.
I whipped up a test ... two fresh ToB Dragon Disciples, each with Aganazzar's Scorcher and Spell Turning. When test1 casts a scorcher at test2, four "ugh" events happen; damage, but zero damage to self doesn't show up in the log. Three of those, and test2's Spell Turning is used up but test1's is still intact. To use up the other Spell Turning, I have to have test2 cast at test1 another three times.
So, basically, here's how a scorcher works when both parties have Spell Turning, in patch 2.6:
- The spell bounces off the target twice, once for each damage event.
- The returned spells strike the original caster for four total damage events.
- The target's Spell Turning depletes by twice the scorcher's level.
- The caster's Spell Turning is completely ignored.
Pictures:
I still have a 2.5 install around for BG2EE... testing the same characters, a single scorcher depletes both Spell Turnings and results in over thirty damage events.
Good to know! That was a problem in need of a solution.
Lightning Bolts + Cloak of Reflection + Simulacrum could still use some attention. This was in 2.6.6:
NW: I did this as a test, and for funsies in a single, trivial battle. I didn't let my character use it systematically.
One of the weirder interactions from the new spell turning rules: it's possible, under some circumstances, for a beholder to hit a character that has the Shield of Balduran with an offensive ray. Elder Orbs cast a version of Minor Spell Turning, and their ray can bounce off the shield, bounce back off the beholder's spell, and return to hit the original target.
I'm not sure what the universal rule is here; why can the beholder ray bounce twice to hit the original target, while the scorcher bounces back to the original caster? But either way, it's limited.
Exactly.
Glad that's fixed!
I think the wands should scale. One Gift Lost should remain fixed, but weakish. Oils of Fiery Burning should remain fixed and strong, but they should become precious
1d4/L makes sense to me.
If it's going to be useable by warriors once in every fight, it should be helpful, but modest- a way for a warrior to announce their presence or finish a foe. Available in Baldur's Gate or later, 5d4, L3? It would start out semi-comparable to a wand and then weaken comparatively as time went on.
I could live with duplicates in ToSC content, with the exception of One Gift Lost. It is ONE lost gift, after all. It always irked me that there were multiple copies.
Do we care about the metagame route? Scramble it up for all I care. Somethings should 100% be moved. Wand of Paralyzation in the Black Alaric Cave, Wand of Lightning in Beregost, Wand of Frost in Nashkel Mines and One Gift Lost are obvious examples.
Agreed! I think we should put them in places like that. Heighten the incentive for rarely visited areas and oft skipped encounters.
What else should the player be nudged into trying? Firewine, Iron Throne HQ, Pratt, Undercity party. Anything else?
So, which of the five copies currently in the game do you want?
- One in a shop at the Nashkel carnival.
- One in a shop at the Elfsong Tavern.
- One as a quest reward in the big city.
- One deep in Durlag's Tower, among the Greater Ghouls and Crypt Crawlers.
- One worn by Delorna, which can be acquired if you choose to either fight or pickpocket her during the Thieves' Guild quest.
Uniqueness is a pipe dream. One option is what SoD did with a bunch of stuff like protection jewelry and create a clone with a more generic name (i.e "Necklace of Missiles"). And there is a clone of this amulet in SoD ... which is also called "The One Gift Lost" and has the same story in its description. So close, and yet so far...
I favor keeping Nadine's and nixing the rest. It arrives at the right time, and it's a more colorful interaction than a shopping trip.
I'd also be comfortable with allowing an additional necklace of missiles with a different description and different characteristics.. In PnP there are multiple necklaces of missiles but only one One Gift Lost.
Perhaps One Gift Lost can be one charge per rest, as we've discussed, while the generic necklace of missiles, if we want one, would remain limited charge, but become unrechargeable and have, say, three charges.
Nadine's can be One Gift Lost. The Durlag's Tower one can be a necklace of missiles. The rest in BG1 can be deleted. As for SoD, I can't comment there since I still haven't played it.
Yes. They're clearly different, given the behavior. The question is whether it's possible to fix the Cloak of Reflection + Lightning Bolt interaction.
(NW: I didn't raise the Cloak of Reflection + Lightning Bolt interaction as a counter example, exactly, but to highlight a related problem still in need of a fix.)
I like that behavior, actually. It allows elder orbs to punish the OP Shield of Balduran while also punishing casters for targeting ST. Well thought out, imo, if indeed it was intentional.
I'd be interested in hearing how the implementation works. My hypothesis is that the engine treats the Shield of Balduran bounce differently than the MST bounce. If there's an MST or ST bounce, the recipient of the bounce gets hit, as per the fix. If there's a Shield of Balduran bounce, the projectile proceeds as it would have pre-fix, possibly because the Shield of Balduran wasn't changed. That would account for both behaviors.
@Alesia_BH: Putting each high-powered item behind a boss or at the end of an area with some tough-ish fights would be good, and I'm sure there are thematically good choices for where to put things.
Relair's Mistake would be a neat include on Balduran's Isle thematically, though I'm not sure if it would be strong enough to warrant placement on one of the toughest areas in the game. I think a buff for the item would be fair, since in my experience the cloak is most useful as gold fodder.
A Wand of Lightning in the Firewine Ruins would be a decent reward for putting up with all of the lightning bolt traps in it.
A nerfed Ring of Wizardry on Tarnesh could be neat.
I'd prefer we not get too aggressive with putting the best items on high shelves. If every good item and every good chunk of XP is locked behind a tough fight, the early game could be oppressive in its difficulty and lack of tools, and god knows BG1's early game has always been brutal, even outside of a no-reload context.
Understood. I'm sorry for your loss
You have my sympathies, even though I do concur with the decision.
But maybe you should take it as a compliment, you know? Sometimes players are so great that they have to change the rules. The NBA changed the rules because Charles Barkley figured out something that was too effective. Surely there are other examples from sports. You're now in that elite category
Good point. We'll need to do some play testing- and not just goofballs like us who play way too much. Normal players too, lol.
(I'll provide more detailed feedback later. I'm in wine drunk and watching Star Trek mode right now, not BG mode)
Speaking on behalf of us non-min/maxers, Relair's Mistake is nice where it is: available pre-Bandit Camp, and on a sensibly elevated shelf. It's a major convenience item for low strength characters as they exit Bandit Camp and head into the Cloakwood. I don't like using mod added containers, and Relair's Mistake is a major reason why that's viable for my characters.
Given where it is, the balancing is sensible. One APR characters gain an attack per round, and low strength characters gain a strength bonus. The downside is that you can lose some THACO and damage relative to a magical weapon. Tradeoffs. I'm cool with that.
If you wanted to add an optional component that buffs the item and puts it on the Balduran Isle, that could be cool. I, personally, would skip that component, though.
That makes sense. The question becomes whether it's reasonably balanced in that location. I don't use the Wand of Lightning, since it's been tainted in my eyes by the cheese it has engendered over the years. I'll leave it to your judgement as to whether it's ok in the Firewine Ruins.
In any case, it would be an improvement over the current location- no debate there.
That's an interesting idea. Given that we're drastically reducing wand charge availability, granting access to additional spell slots could make sense. I, personally, avoid mod components that make life easier, so I'd skip something like that. Others may like it, though.
What are your thoughts on our proposed One Gift Lost/Necklace of Missiles solution? 1) Make Nadine's one charge per rest and call it One Gift Lost; 2) Make the Durlag's Tower one a generic Necklace of Missiles that's unrechargeable with three charges; 3) Delete the rest
Thanks for the feedback. Glad you're interested!
Feel free to share any other ideas you may have.
Cheers,
A.
I wanted to share a quick thought on Protection from Magic Scrolls.
Earlier I suggested that Protection from Magic should be incompatible with all forms of magic, including potions and item activated abilities. Jmerry noted that it would be possible to block access to quick slots and the item use buttons. Limiting potion and scroll buffs beyond that seemed out of reach, however, since it would require blocking each applicable potion or spell individually.
Recently it occurred to me that it may be possible to implement by applying Dispel Effects (58) on every tick, akin to how dead magic zones work.
I did a quick test with a Potion of Magic Blocking, adding a single Dispel Effect (58) tick with Timing Mode: Delay Permanent, Duration 18, and making the potion's base effects undispellable. I then had my character quaff a Potion of Magic Blocking, followed by a Potion of Cloud Giant Strength. At tick 18, the Potion of Cloud Giant Strength was dispelled while the Potion of Magic Blocking remained in place, as expected. The approach is viable.
Thoughts on whether this would be a suitable nerf?
I kind of like it. The design goal for a Protection from Magic nerf should be to weaken the scroll in the hands of most player characters while leaving Wizard Slayers and Diarmid largely unaffected. This adjustment achieves that.
I love my abusable Protection from Magic scrolls, but a dispel-each-tick scroll makes more sense than any other implementation. Do note that, depending on how it interacts with SCS scripts, Diarmid would either be unable to use the potions that SCS gives him, making him less sturdy, or he would be able to use them, which would be a little unfair, since it would nerf the player's scrolls but not Diarmid's.
I'm wondering if it warrants a further nerf/tweak. It's very much a silver bullet against Davaeorn, even if was no longer possible to combine it with potions or wands. My instinct is to make it grant less-than-total immunity to magic, so that Davaeorn can still put up a fight. I'm comfortable with that nerfing Diarmid in the process, since I figure the overall effect will be to increase difficulty: the scroll breaks the core of the Davaeorn fight, while it merely assists one enemy in the Sarevok fight.
Good point about Diarmid. That had occurred to me too, actually.
We can leave Diarmid's scroll unchanged. He doesn't use buffs, only healers, and the player will still be able to use healers via the inventory screen, cumbersome though it may be.
I'm reluctant to nerf the Pro Magic scrolls further because of the Wizard Slayer issue. As for Davaeorn, the scripting of that fight is part of the problem. I don't understand why his battle horrors race for the entranceway and separate themselves. That should be fixed. If that were addressed, and the vanilla battle horrors were special creatures that detected the invisible we could get a decent fight under ProMagic. All Davaeorn would need to do is cast Haste on his horrors. A player under our Pro Magic would not be able to counter with an Oil of Speed.
Of course, combat changes are presumably beyond the scope of what we're contemplating, so here's a suggestion consistent with our mandate. There are too many Pro Magic scrolls in BG1. I propose removing all the pre-Cloakwood Pro Magic scrolls except for one, Hafiz's. Let Hafiz gift his scroll to wizard slayers and wizard slayers alone.
Cheers,
A.
NW: Also, ProMagic scrolls should no longer be usable on enemies.
I am not a powergamer, I also try to forget meta-gaming (as I've played BG series enough times) - my first question is what do you mean exactly by balance? If the new tweaks is meant for the entire series then it should also be meant for all players and not just powergamers or those that use their meta-gaming to run through the game. The tweaks should be useful but the game as the initial post said should retain its unique flavour and atmosphere with the world that was created.
Faerun /Forgotten Realm is a place of magic, monsters and and magical items and even powerful ones should exist for the players and enemies to be able to use. Have you played IWD2 or a game that uses 5th edition rules (like Solasta or BG3 early access or even PnP) - there is a certain lack of magic items and limited spells (only 1 concentration spell at once) that does not give the feel of the Forgotten Realms - at least for me.
If enemies used their equipment effectively - with a better AI - then would balance still be an issue? SCS fixes a lot of the AI enemy issues.
Item Revision and Item Revision Revised are somewhat useful to add as well.
Spell Revision is pretty good and I like some of the tweaked spell - but I don't always use it since it changes all the spells. But certain tweaks are useful for example better divine and druid spells from SR as the game already favours arcane spell so much.
You might also find a way to limit tab (highlight) so it is limited to the range of the character (maybe 10' radius) so you need to search everywhere again - tab/high light key has reduced the thrill of searching but its so convenient (quality of life for those of us that don't want to spend an hour searching everywhere pixel) so my compromise is make a smaller radius.
Allow for item relocation/random treasure - so items change from place to place and even each time you play.
Now a few discussions mentioned the nerfing of wands and magical items - and I tend to agree that they should be nerfed or altered to a degree - if the new tweaks is meant for the entire trilogy (1 tweak pack for all 3 games) then there needs to be a re-balancing of certain items so that it is not too OP in BG while still usable in SoD and BG2 and possibly ToB. But remember that the items should remain and retain its uniqueness and usefulness.
Here are a few suggestions:
Wands that are damage dealing:
Lightning - 1d3 damage but allow for multiple targets (and no bouncing)
Fireball - 1d6 damage but radius is limited to 10' or make 1d3 but allow multi-targets (radius 5' like MMM)
Freeze - 1d6 damage - although personally I also don't use this wand - I find it ineffective in general - make the cone of cold a single ray or icicle bolts to make it more effective and able to target multiple enemies
You will notice that no one mentioned the Wand of Magic Missile - since it is hopelessly useless firing only one MM - this can be improved to firing 3 at multiple targets - making it more useful.
All saves for wands/rods/staffs that do damage remain and if you want to also give it a cool down timer so no spamming is allowed. Some mods change the items to once per day usage but that really limits the magical and uniqueness of the items - it feels more like 5th edition magical items rather than 2nd edition magical items especially for wands/rods - which are some of the essential tools for mages.
Wands/Rods/ Staffs that paralyze, sleep, polymorph (no damaging wands) etc - give it a higher save bonus for the target and even use a cool down system so it cannot be spammed (lets says 6 seconds between use)
Remember that wands/rods/staff - should be unique magically - rather than similar to spells - this is not 3.5 edition Dnd nor is it
5th edition - with its very limited magical items - this is Faerun and the Forgotten Realms where Eliminster, Drizzt and the Seven sisters live and magic exists to be powerful, deadly, scary and fun - just nerf the wands damage, or give it a cool time (so no spamming) and make it unique enough to fit in the world of Faerun.
As for items such as: arrows of detonation/potion of fire burning (anything similar to these items) - again we can reduce the damage 1d6 and make the radius smaller 5',
Necklace of missiles/potion of fire burning - 1d6, radius 5' but also must hit the target - if you throw it beside the target then the target only suffers half damage before saving throws (if target makes the save then 1/4 damage) ;
arrows of dispelling - give it a save bonus for the target (the higher the target level or spell the greater the bonus applied but it starts at +1 bonus to saves - so if the target is 3 levels higher than the person firing it they get +3 bonus etc and it only affects magic/spell like abilities under level 5 - spells over level 6 are immune to arrows of dispelling) - its still usable but nerfed a lot and perhaps make it so the character firing the arrow can only fire 1 arrow once per round regardless of their actual apr because of the special-ness of the arrow of dispelling (such as the arrow needs to activated therefore only 1 arrow can fire per round)
Note that the smaller damage still allows for it to be useful especially if you add multiple targets through out the entire series. And it makes the wand/rods unique and different enough from spells - since spells cannot individually target different enemies.
Potions/Scrolls of Magic protection/blocking and such potions - limit it to 2 rounds and make them even more expensive - I recall them being priced at 1200gp or so - so make it much more expensive - if potions like this were readily available then the world of Faerun would be in trouble - so give it a short duration 2 rounds plus a few negative side effect - ie movement is halfed, dex/con/str get -2, cannot use any magical abilities (innate or otherwise)
Protection scrolls from undead - nerf it - so it only gives negative plane protection, protection from maze-imprisonment and a +1 to death save or something and limit the duration to 5 rounds
As for OP items - Cloak of reflection, Shield of Balduran - you can just remove them from the game - the shield of B was from the special merchant and was not meant for everyone as for the cloak of reflection just nerf it so it only affects spells level 1-2 offensive spells like magic missile and normal missiles. And for other OP items like the Staff of the Magi - either make the Twisted Ruins a much harder battle or seriously nerf the staff - but there are already mods that do this - just pick what mod nerf you like - I usually just remove the invisibility from the Staff of the Magi and nerf the dispel on hit to a much lower percentage.
For other items like strength belts and fortitude belts etc that equip and give a certain stat bonus - you can limit the time - lets say 1 hour once activated - and only usable by 1 character (so no abuse - the belt cannot be removed once activated) - others have mentioned instead giving it a +2 bonus (I think Item revision did this) to stats but this is 2ed Ad&d stats so a strength of 10 increased to 12 really does nothing if you strength stat is not already 17. But of course if this is implemented - time duration limit - you need to balance this with quality of life - would you really want to always activate such an item or remember to do it?
Talking about balance and items - how about more items for druids - very few items for them - and perhaps add more monster/animal skins that can be taken to Cromwell to be turned into helmets and non-metal armor and shields.
Weapons - have you noticed the "best" weapons in general are long swords in BG2 - they have the most variety of different magical abilities (eg Daystar, Namarra, Rose etc) - other weapons like daggers and bastard swords have less magical variety when compared to long swords - lets give more love to different weapons. Easy solution is to take some of the unique magical long swords and make them different weapons Daystar dagger/hammer perhaps.
And eventually we can get into a discussion of spell tweaks ...
Any desire to implement a charge of one use per day on wands instead of the way of current implementation? It should be an easy update to make, but I wouldn't want to add it to any of my work if you were going to progress and do it as part of this tweak pack.
I am only joking here, but why not? it could be a very strong strategy for a high level party, having 2 rods of resurrection and how many wands of spell striking as you want available for each battle can be really useful.
This change blocks the abuse at low levels of certain wands like the one of fire, but there are 4 WoF in SoA and a party can rest how many times they need, same for the wand of cloudkill, 3 of them in SoA or the wand of monster summoning, 2 of them in SoA + an optional one if you do the Edwin quest and a forth in ToB.
This tweak would block the abuse of recharging wands selling them to spam them, and who like that abuse would probably not use the tweak anyway, but makes the wands actually more powerful for those that don't recharge them, in one of my first run of SoA, about 20 years ago, using the only charge the wand of monster summoning from the starting dungeon had was the key of my first victory vs a dragon, the party hp very low, the spells depleted as well as my healing potions, I used the wand, those Gnolls killed the dragon and saved my day, but then it was wasted forever.
With a charge/day every rest you can use it, only once a day, but it is never wasted and this is only an example of how at low levels the tweak makes the wands more powerful, about the high levels I have already told, at those levels many wands are no more useful, the enemies will save or the damage is too low, but you can get infinite use of some wands that in ToB are still strong even if the use of each single wand is limited to a single charge/rest or wished rest.
Each way has its pros and cons. Now you have won a hard battle, but you have maybe wasted forever 2 precious wands and will have to resort to spells and potions later.
I only pointed out how the change can be potentially abused at high levels as the more the game progresses the more you can accumulate wands and later on you can even create them trough the spamming of wish and you can recharge them at wish trough the same spell.
I hate when the developers enforce some change or nerf to the game even when the behaviour of the game before the change would not affect in any way the players that don't want to use or abuse that game feature, but I have nothing vs a modder that introduces some tweaks as the player is free to use the tweak or to go without it, this is giving to the players freedom, freedom to play as they like in their own game, while some changes from the developers take away part of that freedom.
My point was only that the tweak that you proposed if makes the game more difficult in some situations also make it easier in other ones, being able to use, even if one time only, each wand each day, without ever loosing it as the charges are depleted and the wand disappears has its advantages.
Agreed. That's why the solution I proposed was a bit more nuanced.
If they are to be made one charge per day items, the total number of wands should be reduced and their locations should be carefully managed. We got a start on what that might look like above.
If anyone would like to implement this solution, or a variant thereof, I'd be happy to collaborate.
Cheers,
A.
I am talking of habits like rolling very high stats for Charname, choosing to have always the maximum hp gain levelling up, choosing every time the most powerful builds and party compositions and the best weapon types. It seems to me like an athlete running the 100m race that uses doping and then shots his feet with a gun as other way he is too fast, I hope you get the idea.
I prefer to use self restrain instead of tweaks, my Charnames usually have very average stats, my party has less hp, and this makes a huge difference, often my toon dies in situations where a maxed hp one would have survived the battle with low health, and I tend to not abuse of certain game mechanics in most of my game play without need of any tweak, but sometimes I like to abuse all the possibly abusable just for fun, then often I reload and play the battle in a more fair way as abusing brings its own fun (I don't play no reload even if I try to reload the minimum possible times for my skill if I don't do it after winning to test the party with other possible tactics).
Again this post is not against tweak mods, is only me thinking of why some tweaks exist, on the capability of the human being of self restraining once he is able to do something and on other philosophical aspects of gaming (at least this kind of gaming, competitive online gaming is a completely different beast) and of life in general, sadly the humanity seems to need some rules as is not mature enough to use self restrain and common sense instead of laws, rules and restrictions.