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Need help for doing a three man party

I want to do a party with only three members that will be able to go throuh the entire saga.
only charname and two NPCs.
How would you do it?


  • Sloty1984Sloty1984 Member Posts: 147
    I will only do bg2ee to keep it clear
  • Sloty1984Sloty1984 Member Posts: 147
    what do you think about a team of F/M/C plus Dorn and Edwin?
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 3,852
    That you don't have any thieving skills, and that'll get very painful when you run into the many, many traps this game throws at you.

    Yes, players have done plenty of solo runs without thieving skills. That relies on game knowledge so you can protect your characters from the more dangerous traps. In a party of three, I just don't see any reason not to cover that role unless you're making it a specific variant.
  • Sloty1984Sloty1984 Member Posts: 147
    I think I can do without a thief because I have a mod which removes traps.
  • Sloty1984Sloty1984 Member Posts: 147
    Does the FMC level too slow?
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    edited July 2023
    In a 3 people party a 3 classes multi gets the xp from the kills for each class at 2/3 rate compared to a single class in a 6 people party, the xp from completing the quests is not dependant on how much people is in the party, so he will get 1/3 of that xp for each class.
    So he will level up his classes something between 2/3 and 1/3 of the speed a single class in the full party do, let's say a little more then half of that rate as in a party so small the kills xp to each one is huge.
    He will also get HLA almost twice as fast then a single class in the full party as all the multi get them at 3Mxp and if you are good at using the synergy his 3 classes allow is quite powerful in that small party, FMC is perfectly viable in a full party and if in a small one he does not reach crazy power fast like let's say a dual Fighter into Mage, that can easily become a lev13 F with GM and +2 apr while reaching Mage's HLA and epic level spells before the end of SoA he gives to the party a lot of utility as can cover the role of a Fighter, tanking with arcane protections and divine offensive buffs (25 str and automatically maximum damage roll without any item or 25 STR with a str item and DUHM only), he can be the party cleric, healing, Chaotic Command and so on, and can be a mage, even if he will never reach lev 9 spells (no improved alacrity, no planetar, no spell strike or dragon breath). From the Cleric side you will not shine in turning undeads, you level up the class slower then a single class in full party, but it is a price to pay for versatility.

    A thief is much more then a trap remover, having one thief in the party allows you to have very fast all the best items you can buy or steal from the shops, a set of full charge wands that are really useful for a small party in SoA (you can also recruit temporarily Jan to the same effect), and very interesting tactical options using stabs and traps. But if you don't like that style of playing it is fine and you can bash containers with STR and open them with the spell in the few cases where is not possible.

    As I mostly run small parties i give my 2 cents about them, at least about the way I tend to play them: being few means level up faster so be powerful, and makes micro management much easier, but has its disadvantages.
    Few people, even if powerful, lack of punch, you have less global APR, specially if some of the 3 people is not a capable physical damage dealer, and even less APR when some party member has to cover other tasks, if your FMC has to heal someone he will not attack while doing it and so on.
    Few people means also that if at the beginning and for a long time your higher level gives you an advantage when you progress in the game the situation reverses, the 6 people party members start to reach epic levels, their Fighters will get CS and GWW, their mages will get lev.9 spells and so on. They will be almost as capable as your 3 toon party characters, but they will be 6.
    Those are the reasons why in my small parties I mainly focus on 2 key factors: versatility, each toon must be capable of dealing meaningful physical damage while they overall cover the other tasks, and each toon must be able to protect himself really well, can be the party tank vs enemy fighters and casters.
    So I usually run all mages parties that can be something like Charname FM dual or multi, Jan and Aerie (that I have learned how to use as front liner when needed) or Charname FMT, Haer Dalis and Aerie. Sometimes Jaheira is used instead of Aerie as she can cover the divine caster task and gets Iron Skins and needs less buffing to be effective mlee wise. Sometimes I have a Sorcerer as main character as a Sorcerer is super powerful from mid SoA on, can get lev 9 spells in the underdark, does not need scrolls to learn them and even in the late game is utterly versatile as nuker, you can have a PI buffing your party, summoning helpers and disabling the enemy defences, then suicide with Dispel Magic on self and immediately after that a second PI that nukes the battlefield with a completely different set of spells under improved alacrity. The Sorcerer means also to rest with Wish how many times you want, so going to each battle with all the x uses/day items charged (hint: the most powerful is a certain staff, but not the one of the Magi...) and with the spell book of the other members full and tailored for the specific battle, this IMHO balances well the fact that he lacks of versatility beyond arcane casting and physical damage capability.

    A 3 people all arcane casters and with divine casting capability gives you also interesting options. You face a dragon? Easily done, while some summons distract him for few rounds, position them in a way that a buffet does not send them all away, your hasted mages dance around the dragon. The first round his MR is taken down with 3 spells that lower it, the second round he receives Doom and GM to lower his ST, usually the 3rd round he is turned to stone (draw away fast the summons so they don't kill him wasting the loot) or feeble minded. The battle is won in 3 rounds, no risk, no particular effort if not correct positioning and summons management. If you go for the flash to stone route you even get double xp and a single MM will kill him as soon as you turn him again to flash to recover the loot if well timed, must hit before he puts new defences on or heals himself.
    3 arcane spells/round in a party of only 3 is crazy useful in many other situations, take down a mage's protections, stack 3 webs at the beginning of a battle ws a large group then ranged attacks and Spider Spawn and on and over.

    But this is the way I like to play, you will play the way you like, still the fact that you will lack numbers and late game a full party would have catch up with levels remains so defence and versatility are crucial. You lack the punch to kill them so fast that they can not hurt you that a party with 4 powerful front liners has, you can not afford to have your designed tank retreat to save his life and heal as you will loose 1/2 or 1/3 of your physical damage capability so you must be able to last longer without taking too much punishment as you carve trough the enemy defences a little slower.
  • Sloty1984Sloty1984 Member Posts: 147
    Thanks a lot, you did a lot of writing.
    Do Haer Dalis and Aerie come to a romance conflict if Charname romances Aerie?
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    The conflict is possible but it can be avoided if I am not wrong. I surely romanced Aerie with him in the party in the old not EE game, that I play often, in EE I had them in the party but I romanced Neera so I can't tell for sure.
    I don't know if Charname's charisma matters or is just that you have to pick the right dialogue options, but is possible to continue the romance without him or her leaving the party. I am not expert in romances, usually I romance each NPC 1 time to see how the romance is, someone else should be able to tell you more.
    If you plan to have Haer Dalis in the party I strongly suggest to use the component of Tresset's Choice Tweaks that makes the AOE of the song larger then the ridiculously one of vanilla EE and to cheat in the Bard Hat from SoD, what EE has done to the Bards is A SHAME. Hint: his mislead clone can no more sing, his simulacrum one from the helm, after he gets UAI, can.
    If you plan to use Aerie in your small party I suggest you to read a thread dedicated to her:
    I opened it some time ago and you can find a lot of hints, from me and other players, that can be really useful for a small party where she has to cover many tasks.
    Both of them are really useful in a small party setting, they can go mlee, they can do meaningful ranged attacks and they can cast, each one of them can buff the party, in his own way.
  • Sloty1984Sloty1984 Member Posts: 147
    Does offensive spin work with ranged weapons?

    If I go with FMT, which proficiencies would be best and which thief skills are most important?
  • Sloty1984Sloty1984 Member Posts: 147
    Who would you give the robe of vecna?
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    edited July 2023
    Offensive spin works with every weapon, ranged ones included.

    If you go FMT there are very good weapons and you can not get more then specialization, so you can focus on more then just a couple of them. IMHO the best weapon in the game is the Flail of Ages, you can have it very early, you can upgrade it later, uses crushing damage, the less resisted, has elemental damages that go trough stoneskin to disrupt casters and more important has a chance to slow the enemy without save, slow effect that stacks with itself, and slows movement, attacks and casting. The more apr you have the more the chance it triggers is high and a FMT with a +1 apr weapon in the OH, improved hasted and lev 13 has 9 attacks/round, so enough to trigger it a couple of times each round. You will also need a weapon for stabbing, possibly the best is the staff, Ribald sells a +4 one right at the beginning, the staff of striking uses charges but deals monster backstabs and later on the one you find in WK does not consume charges. As plus you have also specialization for the SotM that is useful to go invisible after stabbing or to dispel on hit every enemy not protected with absolute immunity or PFMW sparing time and spells, it can not back stab as a thief without UAI can not use it, to stab use Ryn, Striking or Ram.
    You will need also a ranged weapon, short bow and xbow are good ones, many useful arrow and bolt types in the game, I prefer sling or returning dagger as they get the STR bonus, but is only a personal taste. And you need 2 or 3 pips in dual welding, so 8 or 9 pips in total, you should have some more to spend later in whatever strong weapon you will find in WK-ToB.
    Also Katana is very strong, at least in SoA, you have Celestial Fury, good for stabbing and with a chance to stun (the enemy can save) and the one that gives you some more spell slots, a point in short sword or scimitar is good to equip Kundane or Belm in the OH and a point in War Hammer for Crom, but with the +7 Thac0 from 25 STR that pip in not really needed if you want to spend it in other weapons. A pip in 2H weapon style gives you critical hits on rolls of 19 and boosts the speed factor, things very useful if you stab with the staff, 10% chance of double damage instead of 5% and less chance that the enemies moves away before you stab.

    The RoV goes to the better mage depending on the party. FMT Aerie and Haer Dalis, give it to Aerie that can use it for both the arcane and divine casting. But it really depends on the particular situation, let's say you have Aerie and Jan, they are both capable of reaching lev 9 spells so improved alacrity, the one that will use that spell in a particular battle will take RoV and AoP for that battle so can spam more spells in the few rounds he can cast under it. The key for small party is flexibility and switching the most useful items depending on the situation is flexibility, the same for the SotM, the party thief uses it when he stab to run away invisible after it or when he disables traps and explores, but in an other situation a mage can use it as he wants to use the spell trap or to relocate invisible to cast more effectively.

    About the thieving skills it depends on your way to play a thief, some base trap finding and door opening is needed, but even Nalia can do it, you don't have to spend too many points if you don't mind swapping the rings. I like very much stabbing and tactically set traps so I spend pips in hide in shadows, move silently and set traps. there are 2 leather armours that boost hiding, the FMT can use them to stab as long that after stabbing he runs away and un equips them as they disable the casting, useful tactic if you don't have enough points to hide reliably. But if you don't use those tactics detect illusions is useful, sometimes is faster then the spells that reveal invisible creatures and let you spare some spell slots. Also pick pocket is useful, if you use it you can steal from the city guards some high level scrolls, not granted, but if you are lucky can happen, you can have early all the best equipment and every scroll on the market (selling all the loot and the valuable items you buy to a merchant, then stealing it and repeating with a fence brings you a lot of money. You can buy the RoV, sell and steal it from a merchant and then from a fence and you have it at a very low price compared to those that don't steal. You can also sell and steal the same item from a fence many times, but that IMHO is crap, breaks completely the RP aspect of the game, while sell and steal from each one only one time is in the intended game mechanics. Drinking enough potions you can reach very high pick pocket skill without spending a single point in it, I have the custom rule to don't stack more of 1 potion of each type so I spend some points on it, but is up to you or you can recruit temporarily Jan to steal for you as an alternative.
  • Sloty1984Sloty1984 Member Posts: 147
    Thanks a lot for your effort!

    Which weapons would you give Haer Dalis and Aerie?

  • Sloty1984Sloty1984 Member Posts: 147
    You suggest so many proficiencies for a FMT.
    Which ones woud you suggest to take earlier and which ones later?
    Because I dont have that mani pips....
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    edited July 2023
    Haer Dalis should dual weld so Kundane in the OH and whatever you like in the main one. Possible choices are dagger, you can have the returning Boomerang one (stole it from capt. Dennis) that is a +1 apr weapon with the damage of a bastard sword, can only be equipped in the MH, but with Kundane, that is also +1apr in the off hand he has 4 apr, 5 using the spin and 8 improved hasted. In the Underdark you will get Firetooth that is an improved version of Boomerang with fire damage added. They both can be also used as ranged weapons, shorter range then a bow, but they use the STR damage bonus (Haer Dalis is very item consuming if you want to have him hit consistently, needs str and thac0 boosting items). He should have also some proficiency in a crushing weapon, hammer is a good choice if you plan to have Crom Fyer crafted and also Katana is a good choice if your Charname will not use Celestial Fury, in SoA its stun effect is really strong, in ToB the enemies have better ST, it is still relevant, but kicks in less often. If you get Blackrazor in the Hell's trials (both doing the evil choice or with a trick) it is really powerful in Haer Dalis hands, it has the 15% chance of draining 4 levels, and healing 20 points, hasting and rising STR of the one who welds it giving also immunity to stun fear and charm. Black Razor + Kundane mean to have a 25 STR hasted and self healing Haer Dalis after a couple of rounds of the battle, even earlier if he starts it improved hasted for 6 apr.

    Aerie's weapons: she can only use crushing ones and probably you FMT will use the Flail of ages, but there are plenty of good maces, flails and War Hammers in the game, Ranged she will use a sling, enchanted one and with enchanted bullets for everything that matters. Sling gets damage bonus from launcher and bullet enchantment and also from STR and she can rise easily her STR being a Cleric. End game I have her doing 27 damage/hit with -12 Thac0 with the sling so more then 50 damage under normal haste, and she will spare time to throw in a spell in the round, not bad for the squishy whiny weak lady...
    At a certain point she needs the only pip she can get in dual welding, don't hurry it, but when she will be able to cast the combo Holy Power (that has to be the first of the combo, very important), Righteous magic and DUHM to get high STR, the Thac0 of a Fighter of the same level of her Cleric one and maxed damage roll she is capable to dual weld for high damaging 2 APR, 4 when improved hasted, that pip is important from that moment on other way a 8 penalty to the OH is too harsh.
    She needs also a pip in staff for the Staff of the Magi, for its passive features, invisibility and the spell trap, is not needed, but if at least 2 characters can use it to dispel on hit you have a tactical advantage.

    For the FMT I would prioritize specialization in Flail (of Ages to slow down enemies and disrupt casters with elemental damage or the Defender for damage reduction) and 2 pips in DW. Then at least a pip in staves to stab and to have early a +4 weapon if you want to face a certain demi lich, one in scimitar for Belm in the OH and one in your chosen ranged weapon. Later on you can decide if to put the second pip in staves and the ranged weapon or in some of the other very interesting weapons that you find in WK or ToB.
    You have also to decide if Charname or Haer Dalis will use Crom, Having only 3 toons you will have plenty of str enhancing belts also crafting it and possibly Charname is the one that can make the best use of it as he will have more natural APR, the Blade relies on speed weapons for it, so giving to the FMT FoA and Crom and to the Blade Blackrazor + kundane + the best STR belt you have you can fight the battles with 3 25 STR toons as Aerie will get it from her spells, that means that all the attacks from your party get +14 dmg (+18 if Haer is also singing with the Bard's Hat or trough a Simulacrum from the helm). If the FMT uses Crom in the main hand when he GWW he gets +140 damage round from the STR only. So also a pip in WH is worth it, but not soon, wait to have Crom crafted.

    Obviously there are a lot of other possible choices, some of them really good, but this is how I would do it and one of the advantages is that you get a weapons bulid that is strong from the beginning and as the game progresses can improve, some other builds are strong only in certain phases of the game.

    EDIT: I assume that as you play a FMT you will use his stealing capability at its best so you will be able to obtain crucial items, even the ones that you can not steal, very early. I am talking of RoV, the 2 good AC braciers and Ryn staff from Ribald, his regeneration ring, the Defender, selling and stealing all the loot from a merchant and then a fence and repeating it with those items after buying them you can have them really soon, and that you will steal a good enchanted crushing weapon for Aerie (but she can use Ryn when Charname is not stabbing, at the beginning she will not DW, as well as that you will pickpocket Boomerang from cap. Dennis (it does not break the limited wish quest).
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 3,852
    edited July 2023
    On Haer'Dalis' weapon choices, note also that he gets longsword specialization for free if he takes the proficiency (1.2 million XP also required). Short swords and long swords are his favored weapons, with a total of +2 to hit and +2 damage between the specialization bonus and the tiefling (copied from elf) racial bonus. Anything else you want to use needs to outweigh those advantages.

    Aerie ... well, as a cleric/mage, she can't specialize in anything. Just use whatever's best that someone else hasn't already claimed.
    Post edited by jmerry on
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    About Haer Dalis specialization it does not give the +1/2 apr, only the Thac0 and dmg bonus, that is good, but maybe not so powerful.
    An other very good weapon for him is the Scarlet Ninja To that is a +3 weapon with +1 apr with poisoning effect. It requires UAI as is a Monk only weapon, but is good to replace Kundane.
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 3,852
    Indeed, it's a nice weapon ... but compared to Kundane in Haer'Dalis' hands, it's effectively -1 to hit in exchange for the higher enchantment value and the poison; the two weapons end up with the same average physical damage. Lots of enemies are immune to poison, lots more will make the save because monsters tend to use warrior save arrays, and you could just cast Enchant Weapon if you really need to hit at +3 (which isn't terribly often). It's not at all obvious which one's better for him.

    And that's the power of Haer'Dalis' Doomguard traits. A weapon that would be a no-brainer upgrade for another rogue isn't for him.

    I'd probably go with long swords most of the time in Haery's[1] main hand; they may not be the best options at any given time, but there are lots of good ones and they're never far behind. Add in that +2 to hit and +2 damage, and it's just hard to do better in general.

    [1] To quote a banter between Haer'Dalis and Jan:
    "Haery, I have an idea for a play."
    "Please, Jan, my name is Haer'Dalis."
  • Sloty1984Sloty1984 Member Posts: 147
    edited July 2023
    Need some tips on backstabbing
    how do I best do it?
    How do I use Aerie the best?

    Which weapons should I specialice Hear Dalis in after shortswords?

    Who should I give THE Flail to, Charname or Haer Dalis?
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    The flail to Charname as he will get up to 1.5 APR more from his level and specialization at lev 13 and +1 APR from using Belm in the OH so he will get 3 APR with the flail before lev 13 and 3.5 after it, 4 when he gets the gauntlets of extraordinary specialization.
    The more the flail hits the more it slows the better it is. Its slow has a percentage chance to kick in, if I am not wrong 30%, without save, while the poison from Scarlet, the stun from Celestial and the effects of many weapons let the enemy save and the more you progress in the game the more they will save often as their ST get better.
    The MH weapon for Haer Dalis can be Boomerang/firetooth (my way) to bring his APR to 4 using 2 APR boosting weapons, has to be the MH one as returning weapons can not go to the OH, while kundane can. Or it can be a good long sword ( @jmerry way) for 1 less APR, but the bonuses of specialization. Even late game, when he has UAI so can use a shield, I rarely give him one, with his arcane spells (blurr and the rest), defensive spin and maybe his simulacrum clone singing he can get a really good AC, so his stoneskin will last very long time as the enemies will need a critical or a very high roll to consume each skin.

    Following the link I gave before you should have solid tactics for Aerie, her key is the versatility, you decide how to fight each battle and she will adapt to it perfectly. You can have Charname and Haer Dalis at the front line and her casting arcane and divine spells or using a wand while she attacks ranged (autopause on round end IMHO is the best way to play a 3 people party, so all them can attack and cast/use an item or potion in the same round, also disable the cosmetic fake attacks to count the real ones when it matters). But in an other battle vs multiple fighters she can have a sequencer ready with DUHM and haste ready, polyform active but still in elf form and the best STR belt equipped. Then all the 3 party members cast Web, she polymorph into spider form and uses the sequencer and she starts to kill and poison the enemies that are blocked by the stacked webs while the other party members stack even more webs and call helpers with spider spawn and attack ranged. A large group of enemies that would have overwhelmed you dies poisoned in an horrible way without even reacting. Your FMT with his stealth makes it possible as when the enemies are spotted the party can prepare and cast the 3 webs from right outside enemy's sight without being interrupted, this in not cheesing like casting many fireballs from the FOW counting that the enemies don't react, they stand still taking damage due to poor AI, it is tactical dominance that always involves recon, planning and execution, in the game as in the Real Life.
    When she gets enough cleric levels she can buff for high damage and good thac0 in her natural form or even shapeshifted to a Golem boosted with sequencer and trigger to a massive damage on hit.
    There is not one way to use her, but the best way to use her in a certain battle and even in that battle she can cover completely different roles depending on the whole party strategy. She can cast arcane and divine, buff for tanking, mlee or ranged, she can even buff for high APR polymorphing or shapeshifting with the natural thac0 of a cleric, that is the best one warrior types excluded and with her clerical buffs applied after shifting trough sequencers/trigger, so her role really depends on how you want to fight the battle, tell her to do something, give her the right memorizations and she will do it...

    Haer Dalis will be your spellcaster with higher level, his spells that rely on level for damage or duration will be the most effective.
    Aerie will be your spellcaster that reaches high level spells, the Blade is capped to lev 6, the FMT to 8, she is the only one that will get lev 9 spells like Planetar (but she has also the Deva being a cleric), Improved Alacrity, Spell Strike. And she can mix the arcane and divine spells in sequencers i.e. having the divine one that sets MR to a certain level depending value, usually much lower then the one an enemy worth of lowering his MR has, and an arcane Lower MR she will take down the MR of a dragon in no time.
    Plan the way the party memorizes the spells accordingly.

  • Sloty1984Sloty1984 Member Posts: 147
    edited July 2023
    Which weapon should I use for backstabbing?
    which proficiencies do I need?
    I will use Flails, but I cant backstab with them?
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    Backstabbing.... Very simple and at the same time an art difficult to master, but really effective.

    Tips: to stab the enemy should not be immune, giant creatures and the ones that can see trough invisibility plus few other enemies and bosses are immune, you also have to be invisible, trough hiding in shadows, a potion or an arcane spell and be at the back of the enemy.
    If the enemy is moving you must use a long reach weapon with good speed factor, if he stands still it does not matter.
    STR bonus is not multiplied, is applied a single time, still can be useful to get the kill, but bonus damage from the weapon is multiplied so the +4 dmg from the staff of Ryn, or the +10 from the Ram one get multiplied, as a FMT can not be sure that his dmg roll will be good this is important, more important then the base damage of the weapon. For a CT or a Kensai>T it is different as they have ways to have an automatically maxed dmg roll.
    The enemy must not be protected, if he has a stoneskin on a single skin will adsorb all the damage, if he has PFMW on the stab will not hit at all unless you use a not enchanted weapon so have a mage cast breach when you are ready and stab a split second after the defences are removed or if the protection is stoneskin hit one time with the SotM, immediately go invisible with a potion or an invisibility spell (the cheap lev 2 one is perfect, having a casting time of 2 equipping the AoP takes only 0.6 sec to cast it, with RoV is instantaneous) then stab with your chosen stabbing weapon.

    About stealth you have to be outside the sight of the enemies, the average of your points in Hide in Shadows and Move Silently matters, the more you have the better it is. But also the amount of light in the point where you try to hide is extremely important, each area has a light map, the outside ones take in account the moment of the day and the shades from buildings, the dungeon ones are the same every time of the day, but the light amount can be different from place to place. The same thief can fail to hide many times and moving only few feet away in a point with less light will succeed most of the times, you have to develop a feeling for it (or check the light maps with some modding tool), even a thief with quite low stealth skill can hide reliably in dungeons or in night time outside if he is careful and try in a dark spot.

    Once the thief is hidden (and he must always use the cloak of not detection that is also a wonderful way of wasting enemy's true sight memorizations) he remains hidden for a fixed time, that depends on his average stealth skill, he will remain invisible even if he moves in a high light point or near the enemies, learn how much it lasts and use this knowledge at your advantage. Speed boots or haste are really useful so the thief can reach the back of the designed victim and still remain invisible enough for buying the time so an other mage can cast breach, speed is also useful to run away after the stab if you don't want to start the battle with it.
    The time the Thief remains hidden and correct timing is crucial also for other tactics, he can stab twice in a round if after the first one he goes invisible trough spell or potion, but only if he can use the spell or potion, hiding in shadows consume his magic action for that round so if he hurries too much the stab he will have to wait for the round end to use the spell or potion, with correct timing the 2 stabs tactic can be flawless. Speed an timing are also crucial when he wants to stab multiple times someone that is following him, every corner or obstacle that breaks the view of the pursuer can be used to hide again in the short time when the enemy does not see the thief, but timing is crucial as he must be able to hide again the very moment the enemy does not see him, hurrying too much the process is possible that he still can not hide again. I have cleared whole dungeons with this tactic, give to a thief 2 corners with low light and some speed boots and he will kill a horde of dangerous enemies with almost no risk (speed and a long reaching weapon are crucial to avoid retaliation) while the rest of the party waits in some safe place if you like to play that way. The game mechanics work in the way that when a thief hides in shadows behind a corner the enemy(ies) that is following stops right next to the point where he did hide, RP wise it has no sense, they should continue to search for him, but this is how it works and is very useful for stabbing again.

    So stabbing can be used as a stand alone with a thief that kills or bring to very low health some not immune enemies or can be used in battle to kill fast the enemy mage while the whole party is fighting, then the FMT switches to normal attacks and why not if potions or invisibility spells are available and is worth to use them he can start each round with a stab switching immediately after to his preferred mlee weapons (to change weapon without braking invisibility or stealth use the inventory screen, not the quick slots).

    I could write more about the "art of stabbing" as it is one of the things that give me the most fun playing BG2, but this is a good starting point, from it you can develop you own style and maybe share it and the tactics you have found effective with us.
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    Flails can not stab, only the mlee weapons, including the returning daggers when in mlee mode, that a single class thief can use before UAI can stab, the ones that you can use as your multi has other classes can not. So you can use the Staff of the Magi as you are a Mage, but the stab multiplier will not be applied, same for the Flail, you can use it as you are also a Fighter, but no multiplier, the Thac0 bonus from hitting from invisibility is still applied, but the damage will be the one of a normal attack.
  • Sloty1984Sloty1984 Member Posts: 147
    What are good targets to pickpocket?
    At which shops can I steal and resell the item to?
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    edited July 2023
    The only targets really worth pickpocketing as far as I know are Ribald, the owner of Adventure's Mart in the Promenade, that drops a regeneration ring, really useful, and Terminsel, that you can pickpocket twice for +2 protection rings, but he spawns only in the Jaheira's personal quest, so it is not the case for your playtrough. Then there are the Amn's guards in each part of the town, a random loot is generated on them the first time you enter the area and they can have some high level scrolls, possibly scrolls that you can not find elsewhere in the game at the beginning. Maybe it is possible to pickpocket Blackrazor or the Baal's tear in the Hell's Trials to have the sword without doing the evil choice so without changing alignment to evil, EE changed that thing and is no more possible to use the trick that I use in the original game, but I am sure that there is an alternative one for EE that at now I don't remember how it is, you can open a thread to ask about (it is a very interesting long sword for your late game Blade as I already mentioned. Maybe it is possible also to pickpocket the false Illititium from Gerda or something from an other merchant in the Promenade, I should had read something about, but I really don't remember. The other people, nobles included, drop only few money and low value gems if you don't do the Pantaloons quest, that you have to start in BG1. Maybe you can steal also something from a Djinni in the Trademeet quest.

    Edit: as I have written a long text wall I put each section of it under spoiler only to shorten it, nothing really secret inside the spoilers
    Stealing from shops is completely different, is the key to have a lot of money and all the best items very fast.
    You can steal from almost every merchant but Ribald and the special merchants that sell the RoV, the Defender and so on. Bernard has a high chance to detect you, you must boost your pickpocket score very high to steal from him, the others are easier. Among them the one that probably has the better items to steal is the merchant in Trademeet after completing the quest. Some other merchants can have minor, but useful items to steal, like an enchanted crushing weapon to equip Aerie at the beginning, some potions and so on. You can also steal scrolls, if you deplete the scrolls seller in the Promenade and the one in the upper level of the Adventurer's Mart inventory you will have for free scrolls to learn for your 3 arcane casters, with the scrolls you can steal or buy from other merchants and the ones that you will loot from the enemy corpses if you want you can scribe and erase a lot having a huge xp boost for the FMT and Aerie, that need it the most being multi, and Haer Dalis at the moment you rescue him will have his xp changed according to the Charname one, If I remember correctly the thresholds are 0.5, 1, 1.5 and 2M Charname's xp so try to start the quest to rescue him right after Charname reaches one of those xp vaules, if Charname 999k xp meets Him the first time he will have the same xp then meeting him at 501k xp, but learning a couple of scrolls more and having 1001k xp his xp will be much higher.
    Once you steal an item it is flagged as stolen and the regular merchants will refuse to buy, it does not even appear in the sell/buy screen, the only way to get rid to that flag is to sell it to a fence and buy it from him, but you don't have to do it, RoV works the same even if flagged and anyway you don't want to sell it for money later. So you can buy it, sell it to a merchant that you can steal from, steal it, sell it to one fence and steal it from him and use it or even repeat with the other fences. The same is true for every valuable item you can not buy or you loot, the Flail of Ages works the same even if flagged as stolen, but selling it 2 times brings you some useful money. I used the Flail as an example, but as it is an item that you will upgrade I am not 100% sure that having the stolen flag is not a problem to do it, so if some other that participates to the Thread does not tell you more avoid to sell and steal the items that can be upgraded, there is plenty of valuable regular ones anyway.
    You can sell and steal also the Wands to have them at full charge for free (in ToB or the Underdark you don't have any fence so it is impossible to recharge a wand selling it and buying it, but late game the wands are less useful and you can eventually sell and buy the ones you find essential before going to the Underdark or switching to ToB, a party of 3 with a thief at those points has a lot of money.

    There are 5 fences in SoA: one in the Bridge, near Neb's house and one in the southern part of the Promenade, they appear only night time, one is the potions seller in the Temple's Sewers, one is the Merchant in the Maevar's stronghold, you loose him after clearing it, and now I don't remember exactly who the fifth is, maybe is on the roof of the tavern in the slums and maybe also only night time. The black market thieves in the Slums and in the Shadow Thieves stronghold are not fences.
    To sell and steal there are few possible tactics, the easiest one is to spare one of the wands you find in the starting dungeon, buy as much thieving potions you can afford bringing your pickpocket skill high, find a fence and sell/steal many times the same wand, if you do it 100 times you have enough money that you can buy everything you want and never be worried about money in the whole saga. It makes 0 RP sense, you don't need to invest a single point in pickpocket and how it is possible that that guy does not notice that you are selling to him the same item many times? Instead of doing it I would cheat in money trough the console...
    But some players do it and if you want to do so don't feel guilty, it is your own game and as long as you have fun playing it the way you like there is nothing wrong.
    A more subtle way to do it is to sell and steal each item only once from each fence or only once at all. RP wise you can pretend that you sell the items to him, track where he stores his loots and steal it from that place, you are a Thief so it makes sense. If you pretend that all the fences are connected and share information between them, even the embarrassing one like "someone stole all my goods last night, there must be a smarter thief then us in town" you will sell and steal every named item only 1 time, the other fences would recognize that item as stolen from an other fence (I am talking of RP, mechanically not even the fence you have stolen from does), if you think that every fence is not in connection with the other fences you can sell and steal the same item from each fence.
    About potions and thieving skills also there are different approaches, mechanically you can drink as much thieving potions you want and temporarely bring your pickpocket skill to 200 or more and steal everything without bothering to invest points in pickpocket at all or as I do use some self restrain, stealing is one of the strong reasons to have a Thief as to have all the best items very early and a set of full charge wands is a huge bonus, but IMHO should not come for free. I self restrain to drink only a single potion of the 3 kinds that boost the pickpocket skill and how much Mind Focusing ones are needed to reach 25 DEX.
    The potion of master thievery boosts pickpocket of 40% (actually 40 flat points) the potion of perception gives other 20, the one of power (that is very rare and valuable, may be is worth to spare them for other uses) other 20, the potion of mind focusing boosts DEX so the thieving skills. Using only one of each of the 3 thieving potion types boosts pick pocket of 80, and better DEX give some more boost, this way is possible to steal from almost all fences and merchants but Bernard quite reliably, but you have to invest points in pickpocket, so delay some other useful thieving skills like hiding,finding and disarming traps, setting them or opening doors or containers. And a FMT will get theiving levels much slower then a pure class thief, also the blade will not get much of them while other Bards do. There are also some gauntlets that boost pickpocket, if you don't know where, or where are the other items that boost other thieving skills fell free to ask.
    So it is really up to you how you want to use or abuse stealing, the game mechanics let you have a lot of money, all the scrolls you can buy or steal and all the best items available at the cost of having a wand and buying some potions of master thievery, You can profit or use same restrain as you like. You can also temporarily recruit Jan for the task, how many times you want and he will be happy to help a fellow thief, you can still run your 3 people party, you only bring him into the party for the stealing and drop him immediately after, he owns you that favour as you saved him from be arrested the first time you met him, and this is a good way of not spending any point in pickpocket while having stealing capability and also some RP credibility, I often do it as even if I am a power gamer I highly value the RP aspect of the game, i.e. I never abuse of meta knowledge, I don't buff if I can not spot the enemy unspotted, I don't set traps on known spawning points, I don't abuse nuking from the fog of war and so on ;)

    Now you have the key to how to get much more money than you can spend, all the scrolls that your mages can learn and if you want even more to scribe and erase for xp and all the powerful items that are sold very early. This is one of the reasons why thieves rule in this game even if sadly as you can stack potions and/or recruit Jan for the purpose is possible to have the same effect even in a party without thief or in one that uses Nalia and her few thieving points to deal with traps and doors.
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 3,852
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    Maybe it is possible to pickpocket Blackrazor or the Baal's tear in the Hell's Trials to have the sword without doing the evil choice...
    Nope. Once you've given the sword to the genie, it's flagged "can't be stolen" so the only way to get it back is to kill the genie before it can escape. And the demon doesn't actually have the Tear.
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    Maybe it is possible also to pickpocket the false Illititium from Gerda or something
    Her name is Jerlia, and no. She doesn't actually have the illithium alloy.
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    Maybe you can steal also something from a Djinni in the Trademeet quest.
    This one's real; the genie outside the tent has a unique summoning item.

    The other thing to watch out for when picking pockets? Critical failure applies. No matter how good your skills are, you will fail 1% of the time.
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    jmerry wrote: »
    Nope. Once you've given the sword to the genie, it's flagged "can't be stolen" so the only way to get it back is to kill the genie before it can escape.

    The other thing to watch out for when picking pockets? Critical failure applies. No matter how good your skills are, you will fail 1% of the time.
    So you confirm that is still possible to get the weapon doing the good choice, I find more elegant the pre nerf way of stealing the tear from the genie and never return to him to give him back Blackrazor, but it is as it is...

    I should have mentioned the critical failure pickpocketing, my bad. But if I am not wrong the luck from a pre HLA Blade's song should make it impossible if the Thief has enough skill to fail only on a critical and the Blade is singing, granting a +1 luck, as he tries to steal, is it true? I am not 100% sure about it. Also am I right about the critical failure happening only when you try to pick pockets and not when you steal from shops?
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 3,852
    Luck doesn't help against critical failures. I've tried.

    Yes, you recall correctly. Shoplifting is not subject to critical failure.
  • Sloty1984Sloty1984 Member Posts: 147
    At what time should I recruit Haer Dalis?
    Should I wait till the romance with Aerie progressed?
    I would need him as a thief.
  • Sloty1984Sloty1984 Member Posts: 147
    edited August 2023
    I want the romance with Aerie, what can I do to not have a romance with Haer Dalis?

    When should I wait for to get Haer Dalis to the Group?
  • Sloty1984Sloty1984 Member Posts: 147
    I heard that a romance with Haer Dalis conflicts with a CHARNAME romance with Aerie.How can I prevent this?

    Should I wait for a long time later to recruit Haer Dalis?
    I want him as powerful as possible
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