SuperAerie, power tactics for the C/M *spoilers*
gorgonzola
Member Posts: 3,864
This is a discussion to share our tips and points of view about the power use of Aerie and the multiclass Cleric Mages. I think that is a really special multiclass and the synergy of the 2 classes, not only of the arcane and divine magic, has some really interesting uses.
So please don't tell that you use her to make undeads explode, or to cast Chaotic Commands on your tank, those are things that every Cleric can do. Same for Time Stop, Improved Alacrity and spamming ADHW, every mage can. Those are true things, but not related to this topic, things like clerical spells in sequencers and contingiences are, as only a C/M can do it.
In this first post I will not give any of my "personal recipes", just point out some of the peculiarities of the C/M.
Using and mixing arcane and divine magic is the first and more self evident one, but there is a lot more.
One is the clerical THACO table. Clerics share the same table of rogues, that caps at 6 (fighters at 0 and mages at 10).
An other is that both Mages ans Clerics have the best castable only on self buffs. The mage has the better protection ones, like Stoneskin, PFMW, SI, Spell Shield, and the Cleric has the better boost ones, like DUHM and Righteous Magic. Only the C/M can benefit of both.
Good THACO, boosted with clerical buffs, in a character protected with mage only ones can make an effective fighter, even if he lack of the APR that a proper fighter have. And C/M has also ways to boost his APR, both cheesy (I think in EE some of them are now nerfed, and not cheesy ones.
Those ingredients can used, from early game to the end, to cook some very tasty recipes, up to AFAIK something like 400dmg x round mlee.
I will post my recipes in the next future, I hope in a short time, but I have some RL problems at this moment so I am not sure when.
Feel free to post your ones, I am really interested as I love to have the whiny one in my parties.
I hope that this discussion can become a good reference in how use effectively the C/M, something that you can link when someone say that Aerie is just a weak, slow leveling, not useful toon.
So please don't tell that you use her to make undeads explode, or to cast Chaotic Commands on your tank, those are things that every Cleric can do. Same for Time Stop, Improved Alacrity and spamming ADHW, every mage can. Those are true things, but not related to this topic, things like clerical spells in sequencers and contingiences are, as only a C/M can do it.
In this first post I will not give any of my "personal recipes", just point out some of the peculiarities of the C/M.
Using and mixing arcane and divine magic is the first and more self evident one, but there is a lot more.
One is the clerical THACO table. Clerics share the same table of rogues, that caps at 6 (fighters at 0 and mages at 10).
An other is that both Mages ans Clerics have the best castable only on self buffs. The mage has the better protection ones, like Stoneskin, PFMW, SI, Spell Shield, and the Cleric has the better boost ones, like DUHM and Righteous Magic. Only the C/M can benefit of both.
Good THACO, boosted with clerical buffs, in a character protected with mage only ones can make an effective fighter, even if he lack of the APR that a proper fighter have. And C/M has also ways to boost his APR, both cheesy (I think in EE some of them are now nerfed, and not cheesy ones.
Those ingredients can used, from early game to the end, to cook some very tasty recipes, up to AFAIK something like 400dmg x round mlee.
I will post my recipes in the next future, I hope in a short time, but I have some RL problems at this moment so I am not sure when.
Feel free to post your ones, I am really interested as I love to have the whiny one in my parties.
I hope that this discussion can become a good reference in how use effectively the C/M, something that you can link when someone say that Aerie is just a weak, slow leveling, not useful toon.
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Comments
You can also prepare Firestorm/SoV bombs via contingencies, which penetrates MR and can disable entire rooms full of casters.
Spider form and buffing with sequencers turns them into juggernaughts of destruction.
I really hope that IWD spells get ported to BG. I'd love to be able to do the prayer+recitation+greater malison combo in a sequencer.
Righteous Magic with ogre form via Polymorph Self. The ogre's morningstar does 4d6 damage, which means it benefits a lot from the maximum damage effect of RM.
Spell Sequencer with Animate Dead x3. It's a very quick way of bringing out a small army.
Spell Trigger with Mass Cure x3. Basically fixes all HP problems.
Chain Contingency with Gate x3, plus Spell Sequencer with Haste, Protection from Evil 10' Radius, and Chant. You now have three hasted Pit Fiends which will attack the enemy all at once, without fighting you or each other.
Heal in Contingency. Although a properly buffed cleric/mage shouldn't be taking damage at all.
Minor Sequencer with Bless and Chant. Both spells have a significant impact, but suffer from a large casting time. Minor Sequencer reduces that to 0.
Protection from Lightning allows a cleric/mage to freely use Wands of Lightning and Lightning Bolts without worrying about electrocuting him or herself (no longer relevant with EE-style lightning bolts).
Clerics can wear helms and use shields. This means a mage that can use Vhailor's Helm as well as the Shield of Balduran and the Reflection Shield. A mage can't easily achieve the defenses of the latter two.
Chaotic Commands, Death Ward, and Remove Fear obviate the need for certain Spell Immunity spells, allowing a cleric/mage to use those level 5 spell slots elsewhere.
The Robe of Vecna and Amulet of Power allow for an instantly cast Implosion, which grants a free hit from Harm. This also speeds up healing spells, which especially need strong speed factors.
Both mages and clerics have 1 APR get no bonuses level or proficiencies, they can aso put only 1 pip in DW so have a penalization of -2 MH and -4 OH. Usually a mage can not dual weld effectively, low THACO and the penalization. A cleric can do it, better natural THACO and he can easily have 25 STR (+7 THACO +14dmg). There are 3 spells he can use.
Holy Power SET strength of 18/00 (even if it is normally higher),
adjust the THAC0 to that of a fighter of same level and give additional hitpoint. if used is always the first casted or first in the sequencer as he set STR.
Righteous Magic give 1 temporary hitpoint per level,1 temporary point of strength
every 3 level of priest (up to 24), and make the priest inflict maximum
damage with his/her weapon if attack succeeds.
DUHM Raises Strength, Constitution & Dexterity by 1 point for every 3 levels, has to be casted after the others as is the only one that let go up to 25 STR. I usually use only the last 2.
Aerie with 25 STR and 2 good weapons hit quite often, 4 APR with IH, even with the OH as she get penalization of 4 but STR and weapon bonuses of 10-12 assuming a +3-+5 weapon, on top of Clerical THACO. With maxed dmg roll.
As every other cleric can do, is not specific to C/M. But try with Viconia, she can use armor for better AC, but without shield and low HP is not enough. A mage can not hit often but can make himself untouchable, Stoneskin, PFMW and so on, and can protect himself from debuff with Spell shield or SI. A C/M can do both the things and add to the mix the Fire Shields and the blade barrier for additional damage to the enemies. An untouchable tank that hit hard and often and give damage also when is hitted (but not damaged).
Depending on how much sequencers and contingiences she want to use she can self buff in a short time, if you know that the next day you will face a situation where is useful to use her in mlee you can prepare the whole combination and rest (if you have the sequencers and contingiences still not used) and have her buffed for the battle and with the full spellbook memorized.
Against a hard hitting enemy like a dragon is useful to have her full buffed and with a bunch of Spell shields memorized, or SI Abiuration on, tanking and damaging, she can kill the beast alone, but your fighters ranged or flank attacking, outside of the wing buffet area help a lot. Use hasted summons to keep the Dragon busy when she is pushed away, but not damaged, by the buffet, and send them away, safe from his damage and Death Spell, when she close the distance. Protect her from the Breath, AoP against a lev draining one, 100% fire resistance against a red Dragon and so on.
Very important: when you buff someone with many buffs always check their duration and start with the longer lasting ones (usually the ones whose duration is in turns and not in rounds) trying to not overkill. They have to last the whole battle.....
And have some of the very short lasting ones, like PFMW, ready to recast as they expire. PFMW and the mantles last only 4 round, with a couple, casting the first as the enemy close distance, you have 8 rounds of protection, enough to win almost every battle with and effective and well used party.
For lesser enemies usually only RM and/or DUHM are enough, with the needed protection ones, Stoneskin (Is wise to have it on all the time as is long lasting), Mantle or PFMW. And maybe one single Fire shield.
If you have time to prepare the battle and she is high level she can cast Simulacrum, the clone will be less buffed, as can not use sequencers to do it fast, but will be enough protected and with at least IH, RM and DUHM active, so he will hit often and hard. Other useful 4 APR. Simulacrum is immune to True Sight, but not to Dispell Magic, he can protect himself with SI Abiuration.
I usually check which sequencers are not used before the rest and fill them with combat buffing spells if I don't need them for other uses. A couple of free bonus buffs is always useful.
This is for me the not polymorphed mlee SuperAerie.
@Kaigen , @Wowo, and @semiticgod wrote on the polymorphed one, I will tell something more, up to 400 dmg x round.
Obviously the spider form works very well in combination with a couple of Webs and a couple of Spider Spawns.
It looks like most of the combinations have already been covered, except for a few personal favourites.
"The Handshake": Chain Contingency: See Enemy: Implosion x3. 60D6 damage, saves for half, ignores MR. You can cast this, rest, then cast it again as soon as it triggers to drop all six Implosions on whatever unfortunate boss happens to have said hello.
"Dragon Trolling": Spell Trigger: Bark Skin, Magic Resistance, Lower Resistance.
"Save or suck": Spell Trigger: Doom, Greater Malaison, Glitterdust. The classic -10 to saves if they fail their -6 save penalty against Glitterdust. Also comes in damage version with Holy Smite.
"Not even then": Contingency: When Helpless: Remove Paralysis - Very simple, but purges pretty much anything that somehow makes it through your defences.
"Gatling Spider": Polymorph Self: Sword Spider.
Minor Spell Sequencer: DUHM + Shocking Grasp.
Spell Trigger: Tenser's Transformation, Improved Haste, Righteous Magic.
Throw the pebble to instantly clear your weapon slot.
Proceed to tear up everything and everyone with the Erinne Sling with +2 infinite bullet pouch at 8 APR and 25 Strength. 5+2+5+2+14 = 28 x 8 / 224 ranged damage per round (or be melee and just use the Flail of Ages +4 and offhand Crom Faeyr for 10 APR melee).
"I have Cleric THAC0": Black Blade of Disaster. Yeah, not exactly a combo, per se, but yeah, combine it with regular haste/Righteous Magic/Tenser's Transformation = 29 damage every hit before strength, twice per round, and with Save or suck active, save at -6 or disentegrate plus % drain. Tenser's also doubles the Righteous Magic HP, just in case you're feeling the need to be even more immortal.
Can Quayle can be as good in BG1 as Aerie is in BG2?
Sadly seems that Blindness give a -4 on saves.... only in the spell description.
But in sot implemented in the game. Still the blindness itself and the other penalties work and are useful, but a -10 on saves would have been wonderful.
Btw, clerics do not use rogue THAC0 table, that's another fallacy. They have their own THAC0 table and it is better than a rogue's, at -2 THAC0 per 3 levels (rogue is -1 per 2 levels).
J'accuse. Also: The spell description in game also mentions saving throw penalties, since it was lifted almost verbatim. Don't believe me? Here's c&p'd straight from the original BG2 manual (thank you Sorcerers.net): Does say. Did say. Should say. Based on the PnP spells which always have said.
But yeah, Clerics totally do have the second best THAC0 progression. Honestly, the Rogues should probably have had Cleric THAC0, and Clerics Rogue THAC0, since one is a primary spellcaster and the other a lowly peon.
http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Glitterdust
"Those in the area must roll a successful saving throw vs. spell or be blinded (-4 penalties to attack rolls, saving throws, and Armor Class)"
I don't know if the EE description has been corrected, I play not EE, but this is the one of the old not EE (I can not access to the manual or the game now but I am pretty sure it say the same. And also in not EE is not implemented.
This thing has misleaded myself, Pantalion and a lot of other people for a long time.
Blindness temporarily blinds its targeted creature. Successful saving throw negates spell effects. Blinded creature receives -4 penalty on attack rolls and 4 penalty on armor class.
So I guess it did say (for Glitterdust) but wrongly!
There are, reading through, two places I can find that don't mention saving throw penalties, one of which is the level 2 spell "Blindness", the other "Cure Blindness and Deafness", with blindness save penalties being printed both before and after the two of them. It's possible that for BG they considered the spells too powerful and intentionally opted for the weaker version (or also possible, just based the Glitterdust effect on the Blind spell they already created, when they're actually different, just like Command and Emotion and Stinking Cloud are all wrongly based on the "Sleep" effect).
Regardless, back onto topic, I suppose the only thing that can be done for Save or Suck is to replace Glitterdust with Chant for a meagre -7 to all saves?
The idea that I might prefer Jaheira's company [mostly to inherit the Harper Quest] after viewing Khalid's tortured corpse is very strange and unnerving to me. Let her go back to her Druid or Harper friends and heal.
Last night I just dialed up a Cleric -> Mage Dual Class run beginning with BG-TotSC. After reading this
I am thinking I should scrap that Character [still in Candlekeep] and create a Cleric/Mage from the get=go.
Running through the a few runs drive me nuts with all the excessive micromanagement X_X
0 Exp = Level 1 Cleric/Mage - Dominates 90% of Baldur's Gate 1. Command and Sleep are both god tier spells.
161k = 7/7 C/M - Level 4 spells in both, dominates TotSC.
500k = 9/10 C/M - Level 5 spells in both, enough to dominate most of Chapter 2 since they have a freaking mountain of lower level spells to spam at this point.
The worst lag for any multiclass is around this part.
1e6 XP = 11/11 C/M - Level 6 spells cleric, Still sitting on level 5 spells Mage. That's still enough to have 3-4 level 5 spells like Cloudkill and Spell Immunity while dropping Aerial Servants, MR ignoring Bolts of Glory, or just getting 2+ more casts of Flame Strike or Holy Smite. This level gets a good number of the power combos listed above already. Plenty of power and still Chapter 2.
1.5m = 12/12 C/M - Level 6 spells means Improved Haste, which means Gatling Spider's 8 APR kill combo well in time for Spellhold.
SoA Cap = 14/13 C/M - Level 7 Cleric spells, ready to get Implosion or Summon Deva as soon as it hits 3e6 Exp when they also start dropping Mordenkainen's Swords and the like while dishing out the best single target spell in the game.
Yes, they take awhile, as do all multiclass mages, to hit level 8 and 9 spells, but Mages reach "High Level of Power" at around level 9 or 10.
at high level if after the usual buffs she cast bbod she gets an outrageous main hand thac0, i got -15 while dw with the gear i usually equip on her, possibly she can get better. rm grants that with the blade equipped she rolls every time 24 base damage, and str bonus and the other ones add, 2 attacks with the blade and 2 attacks with the oh weapon grant her an impressive dmg/round, superior at the one she gets shapeshifted to golem as the apr is doubled. and the mh attacks connect very often also against enemies with really good ac.
also her simulacrum can do it, and as it can use the scroll to summon the blade it can be done every time she decide to summon it. this fix the relatively low thac0 the simulacrum shapeshifted has as having a lower cleric level than the original gets lower thac0 from the holy power spell, usually enough to hit, but non optimal with the end game enemies with really good ac.
also the bbod does not block spell casting so the simulacrum can apply new stoneskin, pfmw or what ever as the battle goes on to be super tanky for a long time.
as a high level aerie simulacrum is capable to cast 1 lev 9 spell she can equip the rov and aop before summoning it, then if needed give them back to the main caster before the battle begins. this mean that the simulacrum can buff himself in a very short span of time thank to improved alacrity, having also the time to cast some ih and protection spells on the other party members, this at the cost of only 1 lev 8 spell. and the simulacrum should also equip a wand of spell striking in a quick slot for better efficiency.
edit: i did a test equipping more gear and aerie so buffed with flail of ages +4 in the off hand gets -17/-12 thac0 and deals 160 dmg/round + the elemental damage of the 2 attacks with foa.
it is 320 dmg/round + 4x elemental damage if also the simulacrum is used and all hits are successful.
not bad for a squishy "healer".
i had to change some values cause during the test i had a bard singing improved song, so both the thac0 and dmg was boosted, now i inserted the correct values.
Anyway for defensive items some bracers and a generic mage robe until i have the good archmage robe, then the latter that frees the gauntlet's slot. But she can switch to ac bracers if i need to give her the robe of vecna cause in a particular battle i want her to cast very fast, she is the only NPC that can cast really fast some clerical spells like the healing ones, the ones that save a disabled toon or some useful attack spells like the storm of vengeance, harm, implosion. often when she uses a PI and always for simulacrum she has the RoV and AoP equipped, for the PI, being the original freeze the items are not available for the main mage, with simulacrum she gives them back to the main mage a split second after the clone is created.
as she has the gauntlet's slot free from the ac item she uses the best bracers that boost thac0 and dmg that the fighters don't need, it helps her when she use only partial buffs and make her thac0 and dmg at full buff even more outrageous. the hands of takkok are also a good candidate, not needed when she is at full buff as holy power set the STR so override them, but she need a str boost, if only to carry around her equipment. Also the mace that set str to 18 is a good candidate early game, late game as i usually run small parties she uses a belt to boost str.
With a str enhancer item, DUHM that boost that str and her good dex and a good enchanted sling with enchanted bullets (their thac0 and dmg bonuses stack) and with her cleric thac0, the 2nd in game after the fighter's type one, she hits ranged and does good damage even if only partially buffed.
she has a good helm, it depends on the other party members need, it can be the balduran one, or the helm of glory or whatever and as amulet probably the best choice is the sensate amulet, some more hp (i play without maxed hp roll on level up so every hp more is a god send for me, more chance to survive to a damaging spell) and permanent protection from evil is nice.
as rings she surely has always on her cleric ring as she get it, that is quite late as she is multi, before often i use the ring of acuity on her, more low level arcane spell, while my main mage equip the one that give bonus high level ones, and some protection ring.
for the belt and cloak it depends again on the party needs and also on the items i have available depending on how far i am in the game. so it can be cloak of displacement and inertial barrier belt or a cloak of protection, the sewer's cloak and maybe a str enhancing belt.
as weapons always a good silng, the best one i have if i have not a fighter at least proficient in sling, enchanted bullets and some mundane ones to hit PFMW protected mages. For mlee if is available her standard main weapon for not vampire/undead fights is always the FoA, but at the beginning the Mauler's Arm can be used to boost her str, and the anti undead mace and when i get it the star mace are good weapons. She always DW as she gets enough levels to do it efficiently when buffed, so has at least 2 1H crushing weapons. She can also use the SoTM for invisibility after casting or to dispel on hit.
for the boots i give her boots of speed as long as i have a pair of them that my other fighters and my thief don't need.
She equips the AoP when i use her as tank against undeads, she is very effective at it, if i upgrade adzuredge instead of the mace. In some runs she uses the ring of gaxx (sorry RP players, but in my way to RP an item is only a tool, and there is not problem in equipping a tool created for evil purposes for a good purpose
Her best late game weapons are the erinne sling using +3 or +4 bullets, +2 ones only for very minor foe and FoA +4 or +5, in some runs i like to unequip the +5 one, haste the welder and then equip it again, in other ones i upgrade it only to +4), the runehammer +5 and the Storm star +5.
Edit: i very often use her arcane spells to protect her so i rarely use a shield when she goes mlee, but she often equips the shield that reflects to the enemy the ranged ammo and the sling as ranged enemies are around, as she can draw their fire on her, protecting the other party members and the party mages, as she does ranged damage to the ranged enemies (and this with the party positioning assures that she is the target of the ranged enemies), focusing on every enemy that switches to an other target to have him target her again. She can make the ranged enemies completely not effective, doing them a good damage thanks of the damage an enchanted sling with enchanted bullet does boosted by the str bonus, and it can be doubled by haste and thanks to the arrows her shied reflects, this as she has still the time to cast her spell/round. that shield is also really useful to reflect melf magic arrows and flame arrows to the caster or to cast them to a caster that is protected by a spell that reflects back spells as the spell bounces between him and aerie and finally lands on the enemy mage, consuming his protection spell and damaging him.
only in very specific situations she uses other shields, mainly when i am bored to have her tank with stoneskin, mirror images and pfmw and i want to do it with blur, improved invisibility and the other ways to get a really good AC, thing that is safe only when her hp are boosted by the clerical spells as 2 critical hits in a row are always possible. Her 68 hp not buffed end game or her 117 hp buffed make a difference when she wants to tank using ac...
in all the screenshot there is a high level Aerie and the same equipment is used, only the weapon changes in her ranged version, but it is obvious...
aerie mlee without buffs
aerie mlee with buffs
aerie ranged and buffed
Those screenshots are done using a particular aerie of one of my runs without giving her additional equipment that possibly can make her even better. She has only the items she used normally in that phase of that play trough and is a good representation of how can be equipped an Aerie of mine.
She game uses the italian localization, but it is easy to recognize the items and read the values also for not italian speakers.
Check the hp, ac, thac0, dmg output.
A different shield then the reflecting one is used for her ranged version to better represent her AC potential when she uses a shield, she has no AC boosting spells on.
With the best end game equipment and using for her all the best equipment she can have even more dmg output, better ac and thac0 and probably some more hp. If using the best items for ac and buffing for ac it can be way more in the negative values then the respectable -8 shown in the ranged version, and if she cast doom on who attacks her is like if 2 more ac points are added to her as the attacker's thac0 is reduced, so she should perform as a tank that has something like -20 ac, i am too lazy now to calculate the exact value.
I believe this will also work with Spell Trigger, but by the time you legitimately get a copy of the scroll, you are almost done with the game. (Well, that and given it is an 8th level spell, Aerie won't be high enough level to cast it until close to the end of the game anyway)