Bounty Hunter with Elf
Soido
Member Posts: 338
I want to play thief class because I find it the most fun way to play (with sneaking, laying traps, backstabs, scouting, disarming traps).
I tried it with a halfling initially but later realized that halfling is not optimal race for such a build. I think elfs are better (relatively compared to others), because
- you get + 1 in bows and short/long swords (backstab class weapons; archery is just too good in BG1 to miss and even in BG2 when unable to backstab or lay traps)
- you lose 1 point in constitution which is irrelevant
- you get decent + 15% race bonus in stealth (top is 25% with halfling)
- + 1 dexterity (further thief bonuses + 5% for each tree) and very good dex THACO to archery
- charm immunity
- you start with nice 18 strength to get to 19 by end of BG1, so important for backstab thaco
Second comes halfling, not a bad class overall for a thief, but very unhappy of +1 THACO for slings (with - 1 penalty to strength, that's a very big penalty for backstabs). Halfling has better thief bonuses from the start but they will smooth out long term with an elf. And then the shorty bonus + 2 which I don't consider big deal for thieving class who stay in the shadows.
Then comes the half-orc thief for truly massive backstab thaco, but that's all. Very poor thiefing points to start with. Not good.
So overall I consider elf just the best race for thiefs with halfling second.
Dwarf ? No, I don't need the +1 Constitution bonus. Better halfling if we choose dwarf.
I tried it with a halfling initially but later realized that halfling is not optimal race for such a build. I think elfs are better (relatively compared to others), because
- you get + 1 in bows and short/long swords (backstab class weapons; archery is just too good in BG1 to miss and even in BG2 when unable to backstab or lay traps)
- you lose 1 point in constitution which is irrelevant
- you get decent + 15% race bonus in stealth (top is 25% with halfling)
- + 1 dexterity (further thief bonuses + 5% for each tree) and very good dex THACO to archery
- charm immunity
- you start with nice 18 strength to get to 19 by end of BG1, so important for backstab thaco
Second comes halfling, not a bad class overall for a thief, but very unhappy of +1 THACO for slings (with - 1 penalty to strength, that's a very big penalty for backstabs). Halfling has better thief bonuses from the start but they will smooth out long term with an elf. And then the shorty bonus + 2 which I don't consider big deal for thieving class who stay in the shadows.
Then comes the half-orc thief for truly massive backstab thaco, but that's all. Very poor thiefing points to start with. Not good.
So overall I consider elf just the best race for thiefs with halfling second.
Dwarf ? No, I don't need the +1 Constitution bonus. Better halfling if we choose dwarf.
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Comments
It's really not.
- Backstabs don't multiply bonus damage from strength. The difference between 17 strength and 18 is just 1 damage, and in a backstab that's dwarfed by every other source that gets multiplied. The difference between 18 and 19 strength is big (2 attack and 5 damage), but that only applies after the strength tome; you can just use a strength belt instead.
- Even when the to-hit bonus comes in, backstabs get so many bonuses that you'll rarely have any trouble hitting things. You get +4 for striking from invisibility, you negate their DEX bonuses, and against ranged attackers you get another +4 to hit and damage.
The advantage of a halfling thief is that you get so many free points in various thief skills that even the skills you don't invest in early will be usable. A 19 DEX halfling gets 45/45 stealth before they invest a single point, and that's plenty for outdoor scouting and setting up ambushes on the randomly spawned monsters. A very nice perk for a bounty hunter, who wants to invest in traps early and has their skill progression slowed down.
Elf starts with 30-30
I consider THACO more important than STR damage bonus for thiefs. You need to backstab because if you can't pull it forget about any bonus. Like you said, it doesn't get multiplied. Therefore has no effect on damage. But it has huge effect on THACO.
I mean halfling is okay but is elf is definitely the better choice
My bad on the initial stealth for a halfling thief; I didn't have my references open, and I misremembered. (Where did I get 45/45? Probably a level 1 elf ranger. Amazing scouts.)
For the racial skill bonuses, there are three tiers:
- Humans and half-orcs. The baseline.
- Elves and half-elves. +15 total points.
- Dwarves, gnomes, and halflings. +40 total points.
Then DEX gets mixed in; one point of DEX is worth 30 skill points, in the 17-19 range that a PC thief is looking at. So a gnome is about as well off as an elf, a dwarf is about as well off as a half-elf, and humans and half-orcs are in the worst shape. But from best to worst, it's still only 70 total points - about three levels worth. In the long run, any race can do it all as a pure thief. The skill point differences only really matter early on.
The shorty bonus is just + 2. But what is more important is that a thief will not have to save against. If you charge and take the spell saves instead of your fighter, you not playing thief the right way. This is not a character to charge enemies, this is a thief in the shadows exploiting spells not being victim of spells in the first place. You not playing thief the right way.
What about dex bonus ? Elfs get that bonus too.
I told you you don't need the sling bonus because your race gives thaco bonus to short bows. You leverage on the short bows the far better weapon for thief than slings provided you lack the STR to capitalize on it, while you get full leverage on bows with thaco. And so on I mentioned in my first post. You can roleplay whatever you want but when it comes to optimal builds there is no argument elf is the number one thief build.
You have thaco bonus to bows by far the better weapon than slings (with that -1 bonus to strength; plus bows get 2 apr base)
You have instead mighty bows with insane arrows, far better deal to start with. Plus you have bonus to short and plus long swords. What is to think twice about this bonus ?
How is that charm immunity is small ? Why does halfling have any immunity instead to offer ?
- 1 to strength ? Why would I pick that provided I get 18 with elf
Nobody cares about that in a thief build. I care for plus thaco bows and their arrows and backstab weapons which halfling fails to provide.
I am not saying halfling sucks, it is number two best after elf. I am saying it is not as good as elf thief.
- you get + 1 in bows and short/long swords (backstab class weapons; archery is just too good in BG1 to miss and even in BG2 when unable to backstab or lay traps)
- you lose 1 point in constitution which is irrelevant
- you get decent + 15% race bonus in stealth (top is 25% with halfling)
- + 1 dexterity (further thief bonuses + 5% for each tree) and very good dex THACO to archery
- charm immunity
- you start with nice 18 strength to get to 19 by end of BG1, so important for backstab thaco
If you make a fighter I will agree likely to go shorty. In fact I consider dwarf best fighter, barbarian or berserker or dwarven defender.
Next. Short sword and long sword bonus as elf. You dont get bonus to these with halfling. Elf does and cumulative dex bonus synergy. Where you going to put point as halfling ? Short or long bow. THen start with elf for god sake it is so obvious.
Next. Strength is very important to backstabs. Why would I start with 17 strength I don't get it. When I can start with 18 and get to 19 for juicy THACO while halfling will be at 18.
What does halfling do better ? Shorty save and 20 points better thief. If you want shorty better play dwarf fighter. If you trigger enemy mages spells then you just don't play a thief properly. You don't need that shorty as thief, you are not going to trigger spells.
I am only touching the surface. Elf is way optimal than halfling as a thief.
If I'm going to skimp on a defense as a thief, it's AC. Physical attacks are a lot easier to dodge. Maybe that nonmagical studded leather and a ring of protection is actually better than that spiffy +3 shadow armor. (The last thief protagonist I ran was a halfling fighter/thief. She wore nonmagical full plate, except when she took it off completely to use her skills.)
Usually my party sits at the fog of war border and just awaits order from my thief to charge in while my thief escapes
Even for a thief it is very important. Sometimes you can't prevent a spell to be cast, a trap to spring...
Saving throws are essential and there is no way to play that prevents to need them.
From my perspective I have made my mind already. In the course of the game you will really have few instances when you wish to save that spell. Certainly you can't evade absolutely all saves even as a thief, but you can limit them down. I just don't want to play for 40-50 hours and end up with just few instances when the shorty saves made a difference 3 times through the whole game. Instead I want to use bows and swords through the whole game and feel like I got the maximum of the build and every point spent was well worth it. I would have to give up too much utility for the sake of few random saves.
And the shorty save as you know is not a guarantee that you will save the spell because it is a d20 roll. So imagine how I would feel not only I have only few instances in the game I wished I saved that spell, but on top of that the save failed even at + 5.
For example, you know that notorious mage Silke who can really wreck your party and Garrick. Not against a bounty hunter. She won't be even able to cast a spell.
1. My dwarven runs were excellent and dwarf makes a surprisingly strong BH. The lower dexterity is offset by the racial bonuses and shorty saving throws and the 19 strength option after the tome. Throw on the Claw of Kazgaroth and enjoy godly saves for BG1.
2. My elven runs were fun and skill points and ranged THACO were never an issue with the elf, like sometimes with dwarf. But the loss of the saving throw bonuses hurts. If I do not want to play a shorty, this is my go to race. The charm/sleep resistance is handy in the first game. Racial weapon bonuses the same. I mainly play elven BHs if playing a BH these days.
3. Half orcs I never play, but they are a powerful contender with throwing daggers and quarterstaff and 19 strength right out the gate.
4. Halflings have that great dex and high skills but lose out of the high strength backstab THACO for a long time until BG2. I played them a lot in the past but skip them now as I find skill points are usually never the issue, but melee THACO is the main challenge with a BH. Saving throw bonuses are wonderful of course. If you do not plan to backstab much in BG1, this is the most powerful option.
5. Gnomes are a good compromise between dwarf and halfling, with slightly weaker shorty bonuses.
6. Human for duals later, 1/2 elf for roleplaying only.
If I had to rate them on the power and fun scale, I would rate them such for BG 1:
1. Dwarf
2. Tie for 1/2 Orc and Elf
3. Tie for Halfling and Gnome
They are all fun. Choose the race you want. It really only matters in the first 1/2 of BG1 and after that it becomes more aesthetics and role play. The BH class is powerful no matter what race you choose if you know how to use thieves in the game.
Since you have played BH quite extensively I might as well ask what do you think about
- thief point distribution ? Set traps of course is priority but quite a tough dilemma where I prioritize after that. Either go for stealth points or Find Traps points followed by Open Locks. If I choose stealth that means I need second thief in the party to compensate lack of Find Traps and Open Locks. Well into BG2 even will need second thief. If I choose Find Traps then don't need second thief but virtually I cannot backstab efficiently until BG2 and that takes a lot of the fund out for a very long time; not cool. I lean towards two thiefs option until BG2 when I should have enough points for Find Traps and Open Locks.
- backstab immune enemies ? I have heard lots of opinions saying that BG2 has so many immune enemies that thief classes degenerate into useless fighting class and pure utility for traps and chests. Yet someone once made a breakdown saying that backstab immune enemies are really not that many in BG2. And there is always Set Snares for these type of enemies.
- max HP on level up ? I can't quite make my mind on this. I believe most people play with max HP because this is too harsh a penalty and enemies do not fall under this rule. A levelled enemy always has their max HP on encounter, so why the double standard ? And this penalty is permanent. As soon as you hit level 2 and roll awful HP dice this sticks permanently aggravating over and over, chipping away from HP getting progressively worse. Not cool. What makes me consider this option though is that I would like to stay with the Core Rules but this particular rule seems to be out of spirit, like I said an unfair double standard. And also this rule handicaps severely high HP races and takes out of their essential character by design, like a rule which actually plays against its own rule.
- thief points scaling ? Since you will get extra Dex tomes and weapons, one should not over-dedicate in thiefing. Each extra point offers additional + 5% into thieving. And even we have items giving extra stealth (like the boots near Beregost for +25%. So you don't want to find yourself with let's say +115% in Find Traps or Open Locks. Stealth is an exception because daylight sneaking imposes 50% penalty. And additionally if not mistaken few Chests require 100% Open Locks and we have potions of thiefing which raise those attributes for those few instances. Therefore you may under-allocate Open Chest and stop maybe at 65 or 75 idk exactly. Similarly even Set Tarps might be okay to stop at 90% as it will naturally progress to 100% via extra Dex attribute points.
Any thoughts ?
These days, I play with natural rolled HP. The thing is, you get advantage on your HP rolls - roll twice, take the better roll. A thief's d6 is an average of just under 4.5. A low roll on a level can happen, but over eight or nine levels of rolls you'll usually come out just fine. Puts you closer to the companions too; most of them rolled HP.
And assorted accessories that boost skill. Like that ring you can buy from Diedre with +20 to Set Traps.
You can delay maxing out any particular skill and rationalize it. By the time you reach the really tough traps and locks in Durlag's Tower and chapters 5-7, you have reasonable access to skill-boosting potions. Picking pockets is pretty easy most of the time and the potions for that are very efficient at +40 (And stack with themselves). The early options for stealth out in the wilderness give you plenty of time to wait until your roll succeeds. Trap-setting ... well, setting traps with less than 100 skill risks failure that wastes the skill use and might even damage you. Tolerable if you're preparing a future battlefield and have all the time in the world, not so much if you need it to work right away. Detect Illusions ... that's a skill that only applies during combat. Still usable at less than 100%, but failing means another round with the enemy's illusion defenses up. When you do get around to investing in this one, you'll probably want to push all the way to 100% ASAP.
Actually, you know what? I can do a search for high-difficulty traps and locks with Near Infinity.
Locks with 75-95 lock difficulty in BGEE, by area*:
- Four in the SIlvershield Estate. If you're looking to loot this well-guarded mansion, you'll need both real skill to draw the guards away and mechanical skill to actually get at the loot.
- Seven in the Ducal Palace, mostly upstairs. Yes, there's quite a lot of loot there if you're in the thieving mood. Just don't get caught...
- One in the Low Lantern. Yago's chest, though if the courtesans catch you looting it, they'll report you even after he's dead.
- Two in the thieves' guild. And neither of them have any loot.
- One in Degrodel's home. Oddly, he won't care if you steal the (vendor trash) enchanted armor within right in front of him.
- One in Louise and Laerta's home. A clone of the same container from Degrodel's home, with the same loot.
- Two in the warder level of Durlag's Tower (both difficulty 80). Nothing special on the loot, though - just some potions and ammo.
- Two in the doppelganger level of Durlag's Tower, at 90 and 95. One of them has Kiel's stuff, the other has a wealth of scrolls. Keep your thieving potions handy.
- One in the final large level of the tower, at difficulty 80. And it has two unique weapons that you'll want - the Burning Earth and the Staff of Striking. Don't miss out.
- One in the basement of the Flaming Fist castle, two upstairs in the Duke's suite. Some enchanted gear, but nothing unique. And of course, the guards will be called if you're caught breaking into any of them.
- One in the Ulgoth's Beard inn. Same position and difficulty as the ones in those two BG city houses, but the loot is different. And they'll actually call the guards on you if they catch you at it, this time.
- One in the the ship on werewolf island. Unique loot, but it's a useless cursed item. The werebane dagger (one of two weapons that you can backstab the lycanthrope bosses with) is behind a mere difficulty 60 lock.
- Two in Dave's level of the Cloakwood Mines. The difficulty 90 lock has a wand of fear (you probably already have one from the wyvern cave), and the difficulty 80 lock has a scroll of Knock. Irony. No, you aren't missing out on too much if you can't open those two containers (and then flood the place so you can't come back).
- One in the lodge in the first Cloakwood forest area. Some valuables, but nothing to worry too much about. It's not even that far in if you want to come back later.
- One in the Candlekeep catacombs (80). Specifically, the container with the strength tome and the +2 cloak. Be ready for it.
- One in a generic Beregost home (90). It has a diamond, and two civilians wander the floor at all hours. A real challenge, if you're into that sort of thing.
Doors:
- The treasury door in the ducal palace basement. Which is also guarded, and opening locks or opening doors breaks invisibility. Cleanly pulling off a treasury heist is one of the trickiest thieving achievements around.
- One of the doors in the Durlag's Tower doppelganger level. You'll probably never notice, as it's one of those doors that opens up by script anyway.
And that's it for the main campaign. SoD has a bunch more, with difficulty 90 or 95 locks in most of its dungeons. You're absolutely expected to have a thief that can handle high-difficulty traps and locks at this point.
* A difficulty 100 lock is impossible to pick, and can only be opened by a key or an act of plot. Or it's not actually locked; lots of barrels and the like have "lock difficulty" 100 despite not being locked. Also, there are no locks in the 96-99 range in BGEE; the highest difficulty of any pickable lock in the game is 95. And mechanically ... you roll 0-9, add your skill, and compare to the difficulty. There's no penalty for failure, so if you're close you can just keep trying until you succeed. 90 skill will open every pickable lock in the game, though a few might require multiple tries.
Same for traps; difficulty 75-99 to either detect or disarm. Difficulties do genuinely go up to 99 here, and failing to disarm a trap will usually result in it going off in your face.
- One in the thieves' maze (60 detect, 90 disarm). A fireball.
- One in the cellar of Durlag's Tower (40 detect, 80 disarm). A lightning bolt.
- Lots in the warder level. Detection difficulties go up to 80 and disarm difficulties to 97. If you don't have the skill naturally, drink a potion of perception.
- Lots in the doppelganger level. And one of them's the full 99/99 difficulty. A delightful little trap that closes the door behing you, drops a cloudkill on you, and even resets so it can do that again.
- One in the ice island dungeon (60 detect, 90 disarm). A fireball.
- One in Dave's level of the Cloakwood Mines (90 detect, 90 disarm). A Glyph of Warding, so tripping it probably won't be too bad unless you send everyone in at once. (5d4 electric damage, save for none)
Container traps:
- Two in the upstairs levels of Durlag's Tower (80 disarm).
- That altar with the wisdom tome. 90 to detect, impossible to disarm. Better have someone with charm resistance, a good save, or just keep the rest of the party out of sight.
- Lots in the dungeon levels of Durlag's Tower. Detection difficulties of up to 90, disarm difficulties of up to 97.
- One in the werewolf island ship (80 detect, 60 disarm). Just an arrow if you miss it.
And of course, a bunch in SoD that I won't list.
On the main path, traps are quite mild for a while; the Cloakwood's web traps are the first real challenge at up to 50 skill required. And 75 will absolutely get you through everything except TotSC content and a couple of one-offs.
Also
The 2nd level spell Luck increases all thieving skills by further 5% (for 3 rounds).
Potion of Mind Focusing increases Dex by 3 points for 3 hours
Potion of Perception increases thieving skills by 20% for 6 hours
Potion of Power increases thieving by 20% for 4 turns
These allow one to under-allocate thieving points until certain time when you get high levels and swim in points
Though, in practice, there would be little difference between various races. 😎
Actually it got more complicated and turns out Half-Orc is best choice for thief. I mentioned Half Orcs initially as a possible contender too
Check this reddit post. Too big to paste
Here is link to see
https://www.reddit.com/r/baldursgate/comments/lhb98b/the_great_single_class_thief_compendium_how_to_be/
I find a lot to agree with in this post, but I disagree with some of the opinions as well
On race, I think half-orc is strong in BG1 only because of the early high strength, if as a half-orc thief you will focus on melee and backstabs as a bounty hunter. If not and you will be mainly ranged - which is probably better in BG1 - then elf is better than half-orc. You will not be as good of a thief for the entire game since the dex is normal as a half-orc and there are no demi-human bonuses to compensate.
Dwarf is IMO better than both, since you have racial bonuses and the saving throw bonuses. The reddit poster discounts the saving throws for the high strength in his arguments for half-orc. This is valid, if you focus on melee and bring along another thief for the entire game to do the thieving. But taking into account ranged and thieving, the argument is less sound to me.
Early game most races will not have sufficient thieving points to cover all jobs anyway. It mostly depends on which you want to require or emphasise in your play. This could force the choice to the dex races.
Early to mid bg2 there will be no issues with thieving skills.
"you negate their DEX bonuses" when backstabbing
Somehow I missed this in your original post. I didn't know this. This is very rarely mentioned and I had to double check this, indeed it is mentioned in wikipedia under backstab page - Backstabbing while invisible will ignore the enemy's Dexterity bonus to armor class.
Since the time I made this post in favour of elf thiefs, I have changed my mind and I am back to halfling being the better choice
I understand you are the person to go to when dealing with bounty hunters. We share a similar excitement when it comes to BH.
But I have a negative experience overall with bounty hunters and after I explain you will see that it is quite a pickle and maybe my own playing style is to blame rather than the class itself.
My playing style always revolves around maximum efficiency and minimum waste. I have not struggled around this with other classes as I struggled with Bounty Hunter. How is that let me explain, you know there are multiple items which increase thieving skills scattered in BG1 and BG2. In order to be at max efficiency I have to under develop the thief and dedicate just enough points from leveling so that I don't go over 100% AFTER I obtain the various items. And that is all good, I know the breakpoints since I know all the items, so in effect I would stop leveling most skills in BG1 at around 60%, again in anticipation that I will obtain items that further increase the skills exactly up to 100%.
Here is the problem with BH, by the majority of the game of BG1 my Set Trap skills is always too low to use it reliably. So unreliable that I would not even use it as a solid tactics. Therefore I actually miss the jewel skill, the fun, the core skill of BH for the whole game. Then why would I even bother with BH if I am to miss the most awesome skill setting 4 deadly traps ? And it gets worse than that. Not only I miss 10 levels, but the Set Snare ability changes aa levels progress and at level 11 you get an inferior version of traps with -1 save only against -4 earlier version. Then at level 16 you get complete trash Otiluke Sphere until level 21. So in effect the whole game I have practically a narrow window of 5 levels to enjoy my BH to its fullest. After level 21 we get maze and although I never reached that level most people say it is powerful stuff.
So you see what is my dilemma with BH and why I am not enjoying it. But I would hate to level up Set Traps to 100% then to see the skill go up to wasteful 140%. It just tells me when I see this hey you didn't do something right you are not supposed to waste 40% points above 100%, you were not efficient. Yep, but in order to be efficient I basically have to sacrifice the whole class utility.
I wished those items were placed in BG1 rather than spread out into SoD and BG2, that would have solved it
This approach does free up some points for hide skills or whatever you wish to focus on. I find that 80% is good enough to set traps the majority of the time until BG2. Since you have so many traps, I have never noticed this to be an issue with an occasional fail.
I have not played SotSC mod, but note @Trouveur 's suggestion.
Yes you fully understand the issue and I see you even use mod to mitigate this bad Bioware design in placing thief gear inappropriately.
There is of course one simple solution if we follow Occam's razor which implies "is the problem-solving principle that recommends searching for explanations constructed with the smallest possible set of elements"
The smallest possible set of element is to violate efficiency but only for Set Traps ability and bring it to 80-90% as soon as level 2-3. This way I can fully enjoy my bounty hunter. The rest of the skills are not so critical yet at this point and they can be kept low at 60% until BG2 and SoD when thief gear starts dropping really powerful.
I agree with your set traps strategy and agree to enjoy the BH one has to use lots of traps successfully))