Is a thief really needed in this game?
Klorox
Member Posts: 927
I’m playing a no reload, Heart of Fire mode game.
All I care about when it comes to the thief class is getting to open locks and disarm traps.
Every time I come to addressing the locks and traps part of my party set up, I realize this is the weakest link in my party.
I’m sure I can get past locks with an 18 STR cleric casting Draw Upon Holy Might.
I’ll have my bard memorize Knock just in case this isn’t enough.
That being said, should I worry about traps in this game?
If I can get past needing a thief, I can add an extra dwarf defender, or add a skald to my party; both are amazing additions in HoF mode.
Thanks guys.
All I care about when it comes to the thief class is getting to open locks and disarm traps.
Every time I come to addressing the locks and traps part of my party set up, I realize this is the weakest link in my party.
I’m sure I can get past locks with an 18 STR cleric casting Draw Upon Holy Might.
I’ll have my bard memorize Knock just in case this isn’t enough.
That being said, should I worry about traps in this game?
If I can get past needing a thief, I can add an extra dwarf defender, or add a skald to my party; both are amazing additions in HoF mode.
Thanks guys.
0
Comments
Yes you need a thief, some locks can't be open by bashing them. And traps are nasty yes.
But I agree pure thief is a waste, I would suggest a fighter / thief multiclass.
Thanks. Even a fighter/thief multiclass seems like a waste to me.
The best I can come up with is a swashbuckler 5 > fighter. If you concentrate on that boomerang axe, you’ll be a grandmaster when you pick it up which is phenomenal. If you find any STR boosting gear it’s a big help too, as plain old 18 stinks).
Another option is a berserker 9 or 13 > thief. I mean, sure, that’s a while without the benefits of being a berserker, but with the same idea (boomerang axe), you’re bound to be a beast.
I've done full playthroughs of IWD1 without a thief. They are not necessary.
Fun fact: did you know that there isn't a single pickable lock in the entirety of the Vale of Shadows, the Temple of the Forgotten God, Chapters 4, 5, and 6, or any of the dungeons in the Heart of Winter expansion?
There is only a single pickable lock that can't be forced open by a character with sufficiently high strength.
And overall, the traps in the game aren't quite as deadly as in Baldur's Gate 2 (a game where you could encounter instant-death traps as early as the slums in Chapter 2).
I'd imagine the swashbuckler and bounty hunter could still pull their weight in the party as well.
Detect illusion is strong for exactly the same reason bardsong is strong. It's not necessarily a great ability on its own, but it's an ability that doesn't directly draw from your turn economy on attacks or spellcasts/item use. As such, just like a bardsong, you activate the modal, wait until the ability fires, then immediately have your character attack or doing a spell type action. Allowing you to squeeze more stuff in a small window. And that's really the one consistently good combat strategy to all these games. Obviously detect illusion is situational, so in many fights it's not useful. But, the dangerous enemies, backstabbers and mages, is where it's clutch.
I think for first time runs but also for challenge runs, a thief is simply going to enable a less tedious playthrough, long term. I will agree IWD is the IE game where the thief is least useful.
That’s very interesting! I’ll definitely be using this!
ps. If the game had the XP bonus for opening locks and disarming traps like in BG2, I would think otherwise….
All you need is a true neutral arcane caster who can cast find familiar. You can augment it's abilities with the luck spell and/or Tymora's Melody if needed. Dragon's Eye has some nasty traps it won't be able to deal with, but you can work around them.
That's really smart. I get such ocd from traps, maybe it was because of bg2 and how much exp they were worth that I felt compelled to disarm them all properly. Having your trap skill fall off by dragons eye doesn't sound so fun. Too bad there's no heroism spell to stack it up even higher. Would be absolutely amazing to be able to have it completely fill all trap needs lol. Mage would be even most op since it can do locks and traps by itself then. Even knock is too much imo.
Personally I've been enjoying cleric/thief lately. Her job is to chill back and do some minor ranged damage after casting a round of prayer/recitation/chant on general encounters, otherwise she's mainly a caster cleric. Kind of shame there's no apr slings or all those strength bonuses would be pretty insane for a non fighter with no mastery. I don't necessarily like the class in concept, but the way it consolidates the roles of both classes has felt great especially for my current party where the role compression is kind of needed.
Is detect illusion really that good in iwd? I remember only a few encounters where you fought mages where it might matter, like barely a handful. Pure thief always seems pretty bad no matter the ie game seems like just a few levels to cap locks and traps and just use the bard for pickpockets and you're golden. I guess if traps don't bother you you don't even need that much and just use a sorcerer to do locks., even mages since they can find a scroll in vale of shadows. Feels kind of dirty not running a thief though at least a fighter/thief, even if you don't need one necessarily from a mechanical standpoint.
What's your current party Klorox? Personally I love the bard+skald combo, it's really noticable what it does for your party on hof especially the early game when you need all the hit and ac you can get. It also cuts out the need for a second mage since between the two of them they get enough slots to do their share of buffing and summons and you can just run 1 sorcerer and leave him to be more of a controller and a tank. Also its a less mouths to feed situation when you don't really need gear to just stand there singing with a mirror image up.
You can dance around traps if someone in the party is casting detect traps, but it can be game ending if the wrong person eats one mid combat or as it starts and gets held or something. Dunno how intricately familiar you are with where they're all positioned and what each of them do. If I'm running a fighter/thief I'll generally prefer it as an archer primarily but you can technically sweep rooms for traps and then put on heavy armor before a fight and have it be good enough to frontline with some maces. I'd say it's no big deal but a pure fighter is very noticeably stronger when you need as much of that thaco as possible in the early game for hof even if its just 1 or 2 levels ahead on progression for most of the early game. Maybe an orc fighter/thief so you can have that bonus from 19 strength and not rely on the 18/xx roll so you can get that +3 to hit +7 damage early. I've always found orcs being mvps on hof because of that consistent strength bonus early which is exactly when you need it as well as the 18 dex. I'd recommend a 10 swashbuckler dual classed into a fighter but I'm not a fan, especially not in a game like this. I think dual classing is kind of bad in this game since it's wave after wave of mobs, you don't have the room to have party members become borderline useless for extended periods of time, especially not if one of its classes is performing some critical role in the party and grinding ambush xp deliberately sounds kind of cheese and tedium.
Personally gnome cleric/thief(hat) if you want a backline caster and he can fill the cleric needs by himself too imo even if the action economy feels kind of shit but that's all its there for, maybe a blackguard if you want a secondary cleric to help with the buffing in the mid game and frankly blackguard is pretty insane for hof runs too imo with an aoe no save debuff that cuts the enemies hit ac and damage up to -4 each, perfect contender to get the evil belt+morningstar too and become a supertank, throw in the fast flail offhand cherry on top if you get it by then you likely won't need a shield anymore. Otherwise orc fighter/thief intended for melee and just take the L on it not being a pure fighter, make up the difference somewhere else(skald). The bottom line is any slot that includes a thief is gonna be weaker in combat for it. Frankly it would have been good game design to introduce things into the game that requires a thief and not just knock/findtrap/mage eats trap and I kind of prefer playing under that pretense rather than metagame myself into a coma. Even if you take fmt because "mage spells" its still gonna siphon limited scrolls and is gonna be shit anyway because of 1/3 growth in both fighter and mage all to get maybe mirror image and a few buff spells cuz it's not likely to get stoneskin unless its the only mage. Any iteration of pure thief is just a waste especially on an hof run I think, what it brings to the table peaks at like lvl 7 or so and if you have a bard it pick pockets for you anyway on top of being a bard its like better fmt that gets levels so the haste lasts longer than a single battle.
Stalker shouldn't be that good I'm assuming the maze traps only last a few rounds depending on enemy int, sounds too variable to matter but I guess if its a majority of opponents are dumb monsters you're getting a lot of 5+ round mazes, but you still need to kill them when they come out, as well as the rest of the enemies before they do for it to feel like it actually helped. Even worse if its got 5 and under int and you had to wait like 4 minutes after a fight ended to clean them up, surprise encounter on the way out lol. imo stalker peaks at 11 since those traps do their most damage and have a chance to hold which if you get the hold thats an instant kill swarm it ignoring its ac, but still not reliable with the extra saves opponents get and damage not being as relevant. stalker was amazing in bg2 since you could set down max traps before a fight and kill half the encounter that way but its not gonna hit the same into a 20 mob pack with 150+ hp each. full swashbuckler could be ok with an apr bow or xbow since its bonuses are gonna come online faster with full thief levels and you can get 3-4 apr as an archer with no fighter levels if you get one of those weapons, the +4 bow is guaranteed if you willing to kill the archer vendor in how. swashbuckler bonuses apply to ranged too and imo its the only good way to run one because if you want a melee thief just make a fighter/thief its gonna be better always just by virtue of getting to have fighter bonuses and gear, pretty sure a lvl 10 fighter is always as good or better than a 30 swashbuckler in both offense and defense. even as a full swashbuckler though it's probably gonna feel like you wasted a slot on a weak autoattacker who does locks and traps and takes until the end of the game to get its damage bonus online. I think boomerang axe is more of a kensai weapon like if you wanted that over an archer so he can get gm fighter apr, because 1 apr on a weapon that gets str to damage is kind of a waste when you can get 2-4 apr with bows instead and just get cleric+mage+swashbuckler buffs to all pile on and get multiplied by the number of hits you get to do. kensai into thief sounds terrible and dead in a second if someone looks at him. I don't think he can use a helmet either so that's minus ac and crittable. That's the other reason thief needs either fighter or cleric, if you get hit you can just fall over if you eat a crit with no helmet. You're always gonna have to compensate for something and that's kind of why balanced party building is fun so pick your poison. I say house rules traps are enclosed spiked wall trap doors of doom that insta death. Someone should make a mod that makes all traps perma kill no save no resist to give thieves some love. Just remembered theres a 2 ac hood for rogues you can get from the magic vendor which should be uncrittable so never mind on that avenue.
Honestly don't read the last 3 paragraphs its just nerd rambling while waiting for an install.
Yeah, I used this idea of @Balrog in my cleric/illusionist TotL gameplay. 👍