Nalia or Aerie for primary mage?

ZeroxSP7

So I’m still on chapter 2. Just been adventuring. Here’s my current setup.

Human Fighter PC
Jaheira
Minsc
Yoshimo
Nalia
Aerie

I’ve been considering replacing Aerie with Anomen. I thought I could use a better fighter. Specifically someone that specializes in using Warhammers. The Kneecapper saved my life in De’Arnise Keep. I’ll probably give flails to my PC or Minsc. We’ll see, depending on companion choices and proficiency spread.

I’m just not sure if I should be replacing Nalia or Aerie.

Which one should be my primary mage? Nalia or Aerie? Keep in mind Imoen will be my primary mage when I get her back for roleplaying reasons. I can’t just abandon family like that.

ZeroxSP7

Update for this. I asked this on Reddit as well. What I’ve gathered is that there’s some people who prefer Nalia over Aerie because she levels up faster and therefor gains access to higher level spells and HLA’s quicker. And then there’s some people who prefer Aerie because being able to cast both arcane and divine spells, and especially in contingencies and sequencers, is really powerful.

I guess I’ll just give my experience so far and my current thought process. I haven’t had to use contingencies or sequencers with Aerie just yet. Although I do appreciate her versatility. It’s definitely nice and welcome to the group. As for Nalia, the appeal of leveling up faster is very nice as well. I definitely would like to get access to those HLA’s and higher level spells quicker. Anomen appeals for the same reason, plus being a better fighter. Multiclass seems to NOT be the way to go at higher levels. For these reasons I’m leaning towards replacing Aerie with Anomen and keeping Nalia. I’ll find room for Imoen later when I cross that bridge.

As far as countering other spellcasters, it hasn’t been too difficult. I just cast Breach and wail on them with everyone. Multiple casters though is a different story. It all depends on who casts what and then taking them out accordingly.

I’ve tried taking on the Lich in the City Gates tavern but I definitely wasn’t ready for that. I couldn’t land a hit on him or dispel any of his protections. So I figured I’d wait till later to take on Liches. We’re all about level 11 or 12 right now so yeah. Maybe around level 15? I tried getting the sword in the locked container next to him but even then he was able to nearly wipe us all out. I’m gonna need better weapons or better spellcasters before taking on Liches.

Anyways that’s my experience so far. I hope someone can shed some light on that.

jmerry

ZeroxSP7 wrote: »

I’ll find room for Imoen later when I cross that bridge.

The obvious choice there is "when Yoshimo leaves". And if you plan on having Imoen in the long run, that's a point against Nalia. She's great, but she covers all the same roles as Imoen. Both of them in the same party feels pretty redundant.

ZeroxSP7 wrote: »

I’ve tried taking on the Lich in the City Gates tavern but I definitely wasn’t ready for that. I couldn’t land a hit on him or dispel any of his protections.

Breach is a great spell; in the base game's spell system (there are some mods that change it), conventional spell defenses don't block it. But even then, there are ways to block Breach. For a conventional spellcaster, there's Spell Shield, which absorbs one Breach or other defense-breaker (i.e Secret Word or Pierce Magic). And only Spell Shield; nothing else helps.

Liches, on the other hand? Liches are immune to spells of level 1-5. And Breach absolutely counts as a level 5 spell. You can break down their spell defenses with higher-level effects like Pierce Magic or Ruby Ray of Revelation, but there's no higher-level substitute for Breach. The only way to deal with their combat protections is a dispel. Weapons that dispel on hit would be nice ... but those protections usually include Protection from Magic Weapons, which blocks those weapons. So that leaves the level 3 Dispel Magic and Remove Magic spells. Fortunately, those hit as level 0 and get around the lich immunity.

So, what does hit as level 0 and get through spell level immunities?
- Most on-hit weapon effects. They're not spells.
- Dispels. If you want to protect against Dispel Magic and Remove Magic, you need Spell Immunity: Abjuration.
- Divination attacks (Detect Invisibility, True Sight, etc.). If you want to protect against them, you need Spell Immunity: Divination.

So, fighting liches. It's actually pretty easy with a level advantage, as that lets dispels work reliably and Turn Undead win the battle in one shot. Without a level advantage, you have no good way to break down their defenses and thus have a lot of trouble. For reference, here are the levels for liches you might face:
- Generic random lich (shade temple, undead village, Spellhold): 11
- Alchra Diagott (Underdark trap machine): 11
- Priest (Watcher's Keep level 1, easily placated): 11
- Decoy lich (Hexxat's ToB quest): 11
- City Gates lich: 19
- Elemental Lich: 20
- Shade Lich: 20
- Nevaziah (Edwin's quest): 20
- Odamaron (Sendai's lair): 20
- Azamantes (Watcher's Keep level 5): 25
- Shangalar (Twisted Rune hideout): 26
- Kangaxx (both forms): 27
- Demilich (Watcher's Keep level 4): 27
- Lagole Gon (Cernd's quest, won't fight you unless provoked): 29
- Vongoethe (Amkethran): 30
- Korkorran (Hexxat's ToB quest): 30

atcDave

You've sort of hit the nail on the head for the strengths and weaknesses of single class (or dualed) vs multi-class.
I would add, the cleric HLAs aren't massively useful (I like Storm of Vengeance, otherwise not much impressed), so its no big deal to get them very fast.
Aerie is a completely adequate cleric (especially since you have Jaheira too). Her big plus is, as a cleric/mage multi she can use a particular mage only magic item that greatly accelerates spell casting. So she can be the fastest cleric in the game! Admittedly that's a minor benefit, mostly clerics buff and heal while mages are used more in combat. Although that does mean she's an awfully busy caster all through the game.
So I will most often use Nalia as my primary mage, at least until Imoen is rescued and takes her place. As I mentioned over on Reddit, you'll know when its time to set sail (ahem) for Imoen's rescue. For story reasons it is usually best to replace Nalia with Yoshimo before you leave. So there's a brief period where Aerie becomes your only mage. (Of course this is assuming the rest of your party remains unchanged).
I don't like Anomen, seriously I don't think I've used him since 2001. But then I often run fighter/clerics of some sort as my Bhaalspawn. There's no doubt its a capable and useful combination. If I were to use him in your party I'd probably replace Jaheira, at least those two most fulfill the same role. Except for a couple of Druid specific spells Anomen is maybe the stronger of the two. But I like Jaheira better, and I like her character adventures much better.

In the end, there are a number of excellent characters available. That provides pretty big motivation for multiple playthroughs. Even limiting myself to Good and Neutral characters the number of combinations is huge.

jmerry

atcDave wrote: »

Aerie is a completely adequate cleric ...

For everything except Turn Undead. If you want to walk up to high-level undead with Sanctuary on (so they don't do anything) and have them go splat, Anomen's your man. But Turn Undead is extremely level-dependent; it does absolutely nothing if you're behind the enemy's level, and it destroys them on the first pulse every time with an 8-level edge.

Priests aren't really healbots in BG2 - you have tons of potions and even regeneration items to keep the party topped up - so they're free to explore the other things they can do with spells. And on that front, fighter -> cleric Anomen and fighter/druid Jaheira are very different. I've certainly run both of them at the same time - most recently, in my "Kill It With Fire" party - and not felt they got in each other's way.

ZeroxSP7

Let me ask this then. When I go to rescue Imoen, will I still need a mage when I leave Athkatla?

jmerry

Between leaving Athkatla and rescuing Imoen? Not much fighting. Here's what there is:
- Three vampires, on leaving the boat (if you sided with the Shadow Thieves)
- Some random generic pirates. Basic warrior or rogue types, and not even large groups of them.
- An assassin that kills your contact. Still basically a mook.
- A named badguy Chremy (sidequest). Still pretty generic.
- Brothel guards. Warriors with decent equipment, but no real threat. And you can incapacitate them before fighting them as part of the quest.
- Galvena and Vadek. A fighter and a mid-level mage, in cramped quarters.
- Perth the Adept (optional). A high-level mage. Very dangerous, but you have the option of avoiding him completely - he holds the wardstone needed to walk into Spellhold, but you can also get yourself committed.
- Random monsters outside the asylum, if you choose to use the wardstone. During the day, it's one pack of lizardmen and one solo air elemental.
- A story fight inside the protagonist's head. No allies for this one.

There's only one fight there that really feels scary - the Cowled Wizard Perth. And there are ways to fight a mage like that without one of your own, like using the door against him or landing an Insect Plague. Doing without a mage for that short stretch is perfectly reasonable. Or you can have one and then go up to two when Imoen joins.
(When I did that stretch in my no-spellcasting run, I fought Perth by dodging in or out the door whenever he tried to cast anything. And he still managed to nearly kill my protagonist in one shot, with a 130 damage triple Flame Arrow sequencer. That was a mod-enhanced version, though (SCS). The basic version merely has stuff like Power Word Kill and Flesh to Stone.)

atcDave

I probably wouldn’t go completely without a mage, but as I said, Aerie can cover it until you recover Imoen. Jmerry mentions, most of the combat until then is pretty easy stuff. I did once, a long time ago, have a challenge with Perth, it’s sort of a matter of who gets the first shot. He’s not tough, but if he unloads first it might be a longer fight.

ZeroxSP7

I think what I’ll do is keep my party as it is and just switch out Aerie for Anomen. Then once I’ve gotten Imoen and returned to Athkatla, I’ll switch out Nalia for Keldorn, Mazzy, or Valygar. I just really don’t want another multiclass character in the group. I’d really like to get everyone up to high levels fast. Plus Anomen will make a fine Warhammer user.

gorgonzola

If you plan to assemble Crom Anomen as Cleric can easily bring his STR to 25 with his spells while Charname can't. I'll better give to him the flail and to the fighter the hammer, If so he needs Improved Haste often to make the slowing effect from FoA count as he lacks of GWWs.

jmerry

Crom Faeyr would be an endgame-worthy weapon even if it didn't boost strength at all. And it's available in SoA, much earlier than other endgame weapons. If you have a hammer user, of course you make it. If that user is Anomen? Well, then you just won't memorize personal strength buffs. No great loss; there are other good spells at those levels you could take instead.

gorgonzola

It is better to have 1 frontliner with 25Str or 2? I would choose 2, but also Anomen with hammer and Charname with flail is viable and a Fighter with FoA can have 1/2 apr more and has GWW so is slightly more effective slowing down the enemies, there is a compensation for the less overall str, both ways can work.

ZeroxSP7

Flails I haven’t figured out. I don’t have anyone specced into that yet. My pc is specced into Longswords and Bastard Swords. It might go to Minsc but we’ll see.

As for Warhammers, the reason I want a Warhammer user is because of The Kneecapper and Crom Faeyr. I want someone to specialize in killing giants and golems. And that will be Anomen. I’ve got the weapons planned out as this so far.

Me: Longswords and Bastard Swords
Jaheira: scimitars, quarterstaves, clubs, and spears
Minsc: two handed swords, maces, longbows, axes, and halberds
Anomen: warhammers

shevy123456

I prefer Aerie mostly because I like also being able to summon undead to soak up damage.

Nalia is useful to open some stuff and what not, but then I prefer Jan over Nalia so I always
kick Nalia out. I also don't like Imoen for the same reason, though she appears stronger than
Nalia.

My main character I usually use dual class human these days, first variant berzerker, then I
either use mage or cleric (for the latter part I can then often skip having a second cleric).

I also prefer this pain hivemaster addon rather than jaheira - summoning spiders is so much
more fun than what jaheira can offer.