Protection From Magical Weapons is Bad for Gameplay
The_Baffled_King
Member Posts: 147
I doubt that many here will agree with the sentiment in the title, but I’ll run through various scenarios in which PfMW can appear, and any problems I have with each scenario, and see if there is any agreement at all. Before I get into this, I want to emphasise that I’m not complaining that PfMW is too difficult for players to deal with. If I say I think that PfMW is overpowered, my conclusion is “this facet of the game should be different”, not “these encounters should be easier”.
(1) A ‘normal’ enemy using PfMW:
This scenario seems okay as far as power level is concerned. However, I still think PfMW has a negative effect on gameplay because it forces the player to switch back and forth from non-magical weapons that are otherwise largely obsolete by level 5 or so. To be clear, my objection is not to the simple requirement to retain non-magical weapons; it’s to the hassle involved in having to repeatedly switch to the inventory screen, drag non-magical weapons from inventory slots to weapon slots, switch back to the main screen, and reverse the process afterwards.
(2) An enemy using PfMW in a Spell Trigger:
Spell Trigger is ridiculous, but that’s a whole other story. I bring it up because I don’t necessarily find PfMW overpowered in a vacuum so much as overpowered for a level 6 spell, and this is partly because PfMW fits into Spell Trigger (and Contingency) in a way that Mantle, Improved Mantle, and Absolute Immunity do not. On a related note, the fact that PfMW is only level 6 means that mid level mages can use it while retaining high level spells with which to attack the player.
(3) A ‘normal’ enemy using PfMW and Protection from Normal Missiles:
From a conceptual standpoint, it feels wrong that PfNM and PfMW can be active at the same time given that PfNW cannot be active concurrently with PfMW. This comes across as an arbitrary distinction which consciously privileges melee weapons over missile weapons, and I’d argue that there is simply too much of that in BGII. It’s also worth noting that PfNM fits comfortably into Spell Sequencers/Spell Triggers/Contingencies along with PfMW.
(4) Enemies with immunity to non-magic weapons using PfMW:
Any level 6 spell that can make a creature immune to weapons is, to me, stupidly overpowered. The fact that the creature’s natural immunities are part of the equation is immaterial – if two things are overpowered in combination then it’s correct to say they are overpowered even if they’re fine in isolation. Moreover, from a conceptual standpoint, I’m not sure it makes sense for PfNW to block PfMW if creatures that have what’s essentially a permanent PfNW can still use PfMW.
(5) Liches, Rakshasas and the like using PfMW:
I distinguish Liches and Rakshasas from other creatures covered by the previous scenario because their immunity to spell levels 1-5 prevents PfMW from being dispelled via Breach (while also making most of the contents of the Mage book and Priest scroll completely irrelevant). With those options taken away, most party members are left twiddling their thumbs, which is both boring and frustrating. Also, while it's true that Dispel Magic and Remove Magic can work despite Lich/Rakshasa spell immunity, in practice these dispels tend to fail before the late game except against creatures which have too low a character level for the spells that they cast – and for me, taking advantage of that isn't much fun.
(6) A single class party Wizard using PfMW:
It doesn’t even seem necessary for Wizards to use PfMW in unmodded BGII when playing with a party. I suspect it becomes more useful and perhaps even necessary when playing solo, or against the improved AI targetting provided by SCS.
(7) A party Fighter/Mage using PfMW:
There are plenty of encounters against high level foes who lack magic weapons, or groups mixing magic and non-magic weaponry, so PfMW isn’t uniformly overpowered when used by the player to protect a Fighter/Mage (multi or dual).
(8) A party Fighter/Mage using PfMW vs [some] magical creatures:
I mentioned the two previous scenarios to acknowledge that PfMW isn’t always overpowered or even useful for players. Unfortunately, when PfMW is good it completely trivialises the game. For example, Mind Flayers and Umber Hulks are effectively helpless against an F/M using PfMW and Chaotic Commands, and the resulting snooze-fest isn’t in the least bit appealing to me.
(9) Encounter design in the world of PfMW:
Furnishing enemies with magic weapons or ammo is an obvious way of increasing the difficulty of a particular encounter, and it’s essential that some enemies have magic weaponry because the player can use PfNM, PfNW, or summon creatures immune to normal weapons. PfMW pisses all over this paradigm by taking steps that should make an encounter more difficult and using them to make the encounter easier instead! Turning the enemy’s weapons against them can constitute clever gameplay, but “cast PfMW, attack with F/M” is far from clever.
(10) PfMW against Infinity Engine enemies:
PfMW would be problematic in any context where the BGII ruleset is used, but the impact it has on Infinity Engine games is magnified due to the limitations of the game engine. First, although it would often be sensible to run from enemies that are temporarily invulnerable, that is more or less impossible in Infinity Engine games because areas are unrealistically small and enemies cannot effectively move between areas. Second, as far as I’m aware, Infinity Engine scripting can’t do much more than recognise immunities and concentrate on alternative targets – switching between magic and non-magic weaponry in the way that players do is realistically not possible (to my knowledge, SCS AI can change targets if it can’t harm its current target, or switch from ranged to melee when faced with PfNM or Physical Mirror, but it doesn’t switch from magic weaponry to non-magic weaponry when faced with PfMW).
ETA: Edited my scenario (5) and added the word "some" to scenario (8) to acknowledge jmerry's comment.
(1) A ‘normal’ enemy using PfMW:
This scenario seems okay as far as power level is concerned. However, I still think PfMW has a negative effect on gameplay because it forces the player to switch back and forth from non-magical weapons that are otherwise largely obsolete by level 5 or so. To be clear, my objection is not to the simple requirement to retain non-magical weapons; it’s to the hassle involved in having to repeatedly switch to the inventory screen, drag non-magical weapons from inventory slots to weapon slots, switch back to the main screen, and reverse the process afterwards.
(2) An enemy using PfMW in a Spell Trigger:
Spell Trigger is ridiculous, but that’s a whole other story. I bring it up because I don’t necessarily find PfMW overpowered in a vacuum so much as overpowered for a level 6 spell, and this is partly because PfMW fits into Spell Trigger (and Contingency) in a way that Mantle, Improved Mantle, and Absolute Immunity do not. On a related note, the fact that PfMW is only level 6 means that mid level mages can use it while retaining high level spells with which to attack the player.
(3) A ‘normal’ enemy using PfMW and Protection from Normal Missiles:
From a conceptual standpoint, it feels wrong that PfNM and PfMW can be active at the same time given that PfNW cannot be active concurrently with PfMW. This comes across as an arbitrary distinction which consciously privileges melee weapons over missile weapons, and I’d argue that there is simply too much of that in BGII. It’s also worth noting that PfNM fits comfortably into Spell Sequencers/Spell Triggers/Contingencies along with PfMW.
(4) Enemies with immunity to non-magic weapons using PfMW:
Any level 6 spell that can make a creature immune to weapons is, to me, stupidly overpowered. The fact that the creature’s natural immunities are part of the equation is immaterial – if two things are overpowered in combination then it’s correct to say they are overpowered even if they’re fine in isolation. Moreover, from a conceptual standpoint, I’m not sure it makes sense for PfNW to block PfMW if creatures that have what’s essentially a permanent PfNW can still use PfMW.
(5) Liches, Rakshasas and the like using PfMW:
I distinguish Liches and Rakshasas from other creatures covered by the previous scenario because their immunity to spell levels 1-5 prevents PfMW from being dispelled via Breach (while also making most of the contents of the Mage book and Priest scroll completely irrelevant). With those options taken away, most party members are left twiddling their thumbs, which is both boring and frustrating. Also, while it's true that Dispel Magic and Remove Magic can work despite Lich/Rakshasa spell immunity, in practice these dispels tend to fail before the late game except against creatures which have too low a character level for the spells that they cast – and for me, taking advantage of that isn't much fun.
(6) A single class party Wizard using PfMW:
It doesn’t even seem necessary for Wizards to use PfMW in unmodded BGII when playing with a party. I suspect it becomes more useful and perhaps even necessary when playing solo, or against the improved AI targetting provided by SCS.
(7) A party Fighter/Mage using PfMW:
There are plenty of encounters against high level foes who lack magic weapons, or groups mixing magic and non-magic weaponry, so PfMW isn’t uniformly overpowered when used by the player to protect a Fighter/Mage (multi or dual).
(8) A party Fighter/Mage using PfMW vs [some] magical creatures:
I mentioned the two previous scenarios to acknowledge that PfMW isn’t always overpowered or even useful for players. Unfortunately, when PfMW is good it completely trivialises the game. For example, Mind Flayers and Umber Hulks are effectively helpless against an F/M using PfMW and Chaotic Commands, and the resulting snooze-fest isn’t in the least bit appealing to me.
(9) Encounter design in the world of PfMW:
Furnishing enemies with magic weapons or ammo is an obvious way of increasing the difficulty of a particular encounter, and it’s essential that some enemies have magic weaponry because the player can use PfNM, PfNW, or summon creatures immune to normal weapons. PfMW pisses all over this paradigm by taking steps that should make an encounter more difficult and using them to make the encounter easier instead! Turning the enemy’s weapons against them can constitute clever gameplay, but “cast PfMW, attack with F/M” is far from clever.
(10) PfMW against Infinity Engine enemies:
PfMW would be problematic in any context where the BGII ruleset is used, but the impact it has on Infinity Engine games is magnified due to the limitations of the game engine. First, although it would often be sensible to run from enemies that are temporarily invulnerable, that is more or less impossible in Infinity Engine games because areas are unrealistically small and enemies cannot effectively move between areas. Second, as far as I’m aware, Infinity Engine scripting can’t do much more than recognise immunities and concentrate on alternative targets – switching between magic and non-magic weaponry in the way that players do is realistically not possible (to my knowledge, SCS AI can change targets if it can’t harm its current target, or switch from ranged to melee when faced with PfNM or Physical Mirror, but it doesn’t switch from magic weaponry to non-magic weaponry when faced with PfMW).
ETA: Edited my scenario (5) and added the word "some" to scenario (8) to acknowledge jmerry's comment.
Post edited by The_Baffled_King on
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Comments
Well, some kinds of creatures. Others are blocked by protection from normal weapons, which has more sources than just the mage spell. Mist-type creatures, in particular, all have nonmagical weapons. If you roll up to an all-mist encounter with Enhanced Bard Song on the party (normal weapon protection for everybody, plus a bunch of status immunities), there's basically nothing those otherwise dangerous enemies can do.
That immunity protects from Breach. It does not protect from dispel effects such as Dispel Magic and Remove Magic; those all hit as level 0. As do weapons with on-hit dispel effects, but those are all blocked by PFMW. So you can dispel the lich or rakshasa ... but you can only do it reliably if you have an edge in levels, because of the level check that the dispel spells have.
Also, Breach should have multiple versions at different levels. There are something like seven different spells that take down spell protections, scaling from Spell Thrust at level 3 to Spellstrike at level 9. And there's only one spell that takes down combat protections? It overloads the importance of that one spell - not good for gameplay.
I don’t much care for the spell, and I don’t actually use it myself.
The big thing is, it only lasts 4 rounds. Several of these immunity spells are very short duration. So, take a break, play some sudoku, then kill the lich.
Overhaul PfNW and PfMW (EXPERIMENTAL)
Minor Protection From Physical Damage
- Abjuration
- Level: 5
- Range: 0
- Duration: 1 round/level
- Casting Time: 2
- Area of Effect: The caster
- Saving Throw: None
When the spell is cast, it sets physical damage resistance for slashing, crushing, piercing, and missile damage to 40%. It is important to note that this spell will override and replace protections granted from previous castings of Minor Protection From Damage and Protection From Damage. This effect lasts for the duration of the spell or until dispelled.
Protection From Physical Damage (Previously PfMW)
- Abjuration
- Level: 6
- Range: 0
- Duration: 4 rounds
- Casting Time: 1
- Area of Effect: The caster
- Saving Throw: None
When the spell is cast, it sets physical damage resistance for slashing, crushing, piercing, and missile damage to 90%. It is important to note that this spell will override and replace protections granted from previous castings of Minor Protection From Damage and Protection From Damage. Due to the nature of this spell, with the short casting time and duration, it is mainly used to buy the wizard a few rounds in the thick of combat. This effect lasts for the duration of the spell or until dispelled.
Mantles, Absolute Immunity, and Divine Protections will act as normal and improve damage resistance by +40%.
This pairs well with my concentration check component, so enemies will not automatically miscast upon being damaged.
Fair play, I got quite a good laugh from that comment!
True enough, but it just seems silly, you know? I much prefer to fight dangerous enemies that I have a few ways of interacting with than enemies that can stack up immunities with ease, yet which remain far less threatening than they realistically should be.
Yeah, I probably should've qualified my eighth scenario with the word "certain". Anyway, your point about the mist creatures' shortcomings provides another example, albeit a slightly different one, of the kind of thing that I dislike about PfMW and about the Infinity Engine games more generally (interestingly, although mist creatures' weapons are non-magical, they have an enchantment level of 3 – do you know if there's anything against which the "non-magical yet enchanted" status is actually useful?).
Ah, yes, thanks for the correction. I haven't been bothering with Dispel Magic or Remove Magic, so I only had Breach in mind when writing that segment (I wasn't bothering with Dispel Magic or Remove Magic because I know my casters should be too low to have a decent chance of succeeding, and I don't want to take advantage of Bioware's stupefyingly bizarre mismatches between some enemies' character level and the spell levels they have access to).
Yes, I've often thought that myself. Breach effects at levels 3, 5, and 7 would probably be my suggestion. As is, Breach is overpowered in vanilla against normal Wizards, while with SCS I get the feeling that Wizard fights tend to revolve around defending against Breach. Sure, it's an improvement over vanilla, but one that still overloads the importance of the spell, as you said.
Obviously I understand why you want your alternative to work with existing scripts, but it's a shame that's the space that modders generally have to occupy. It would've been nice if Spell Revisions and/or SCS had taken a good look at PfMW and considered whether it really promoted good gameplay. Instead, we have the opposite, with SCS Liches switching out their Improved Mantles for PfMW, and Spell Revisions removing the Mantle spells because they are mostly underpowered next to PfMW. I'd like the opportunity to rebalance the whole spell system without having to account for like-for-like replacements for existing spells.
At first glance, those seem quite reasonable.
Also, while we're both here, I just want to tip my hat at you for your component that removes critical hit immunity from helmets and adds it to shields – that's something I hadn't gotten around to considering, so it was new to me, and it seems like a very good idea indeed.
soaking up damage rather than full protection. That is, to work more like
a soak-up effect than a full immunity effect.
If PfMW was up to +2 then it would have made perfect sense. every few levels you get a spell that makes you immune for a short time to +X or lower.
I have no clue why PfMW was made more useful than all the mantle spells. complete insanity.
Creatures immune to spell levels should only be immune to damaging or disabling spells, not to dispelling spells. That would also tip the scales to acceptable.
Immune for four rounds, but dispellable if done right. If the creature buffs some more spell protections like deflection, turning or spell shield, all the more to strip, but at least you can do it within the four rounds.
But the implementation of the idea is faulty, because Mantle and Improved Mantle each needed to protect against one higher level of enchantment to at least be competitive with PfMW, and the idea itself is faulty, because PfMW is obviously going to be very good in a world of spellcasters with natural immunity to normal weapons, and creatures with all-magic weaponry.
I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think it was complete insanity for a designer to propose what we ended up with, but I do think it's complete insanity that the idea survived development and playtesting! Anyway, I agree that PfMW should have been replaced with another Mantle clone that was slightly less potent than the version one spell level above.
Yeah, that sounds right. I like the fact that SCS does at least remove Liches and Rakshasas' immunity to Breach, albeit while making Breach subject to the spell protections.