Dorn overly powerful?

Ashlander

Is it just me or does Dorn feel way more powerful than, for example, Rasaad.

I'm having a big dilemma of choosing the party. Dorn seem to be very interesting character, so does Rasaad. However the stats seem to be just incomparable. Everything is better for Dorn, 19 str, incredible stats, better AC, many times better Damage and THAC0, more hp, just overall incredible kit and let's not forget that starting sword.

He's better in every single aspect by a mile. This seems to be a one question IQ test here..
Is the monk just bad early levels and become stronger than Blackguard later in the game?

Is it worth it to deal with all the evil-in-good-party issues to get him and dump the monk? This is really giving me a headache >.<

Hoo

Actually, the Paladins are perfactly better than Monk.

Frankly speaking, Monk is the one of the weakest kit at lower level so it is why Rasaad looks like garbage.

And I really wonder why the developers made the NPC having such useless class without any rebalancing kits/classes...

Abel

Monks are crap in BGEE, period.
I don't really know how characters react to Reputation. Only experience I had so far is that I recruited Imoen @ Reputation 1 and when I killed an innocent she left instantly.
My advice: don't bother with Rasaad unless you care about his banters/personnality/etc.

Velkir

Good NPC leave at 0 Rep, Evil NPC leave at 20 rep

Abel

@Velkir Oh, I see. So Neutral characters are the only ones never to leave?

Velkir

Pretty sure yes

The_New_Romance

19 STR alone is so brutal. The way the 2E AD&D strength table is set up, it's simply three times as powerful as 18 STR, which numerically is only one point lower, and is the most that Rasaad could legally have. On a fighter, that pretty much settles it, no matter the kits, special skills and whatnot else.

Of course, it has always been argued that BG's evil characters were more powerful than their good counterparts, but that that was offset by them being, well, evil, and an evil party being harder to play. I don't know whether this is really true, but if Beamdog tried to create Dorn in that spirit, I believe they went a little overboard.

I wonder if it is a coincidence that the weakest new NPC comes for free with the tablet versions of the game, but you have to get out your purse for the real guys. I'm usually not one to cry Nerf! and let slip the dogs of balance, but in the case of Rasaad something should be done. I also believe Dorn has to be toned down a little. His only disadvantage is that he doesn't get extra constitution hit points, but it's not that much of a problem if the dishes out like crazy and doesn't get hit that much. And it's a "no bonus" disadvantage that we're talking here, compared to a "penalty" disadvantage. I feel he really sticks out in the BG1 NPC roster (would be different in BG2, I guess, but in this game...)

Elendar

Velkir said:

Good NPC leave at 0 Rep, Evil NPC leave at 20 rep

Abel said:

@Velkir Oh, I see. So Neutral characters are the only ones never to leave?

Actually, no.

Good NPCs will break away at reputation 2 or lower.... Neutral NPCs will break away at 1 reputation.. and evil NPCs will break away at 19 reputation or higher.

Kithrixx

Monks not being all that great at low levels has always been a "thing" in DnD. He's not really going to be able to compete on a serious level with the other characters until like... Level 6 or 7, and that's "endgame" for BG:EE. Take that as you will, I suppose.

Talonfire

Ashlander said:

Is the monk just bad early levels and become stronger than Blackguard later in the game?

No, I've found that Rasaad is just as useless at level 4 as he is at level 1. I don't know about level 7, but I can't imagine there being much of a difference, especially when compared to the far more effective Dorn. As someone else pointed out, the only reason to bother with Rasaad is if you want to see his story and quest, outside of that he's not a worthwhile character to take along.

Kithrixx

He's not useless by any stretch of the imagination. Stunning Blow is very nice for when you want to disable a priority target, and if you're strapped for cash (for some strange reason) then he's effective without equipment. Rasaad (and monks in general) have niches, it's just that the unfortunate truth is low levels are not really that niche.

Jared4242

Aye, Dorn has been one shotting most enemies I come across. Still, he's an experienced Half orc monster wielding a gigantic sword that feeds upon his enemies... so yes, he's overpowered. But for once, my main character is having a real challenge getting the most kills, so I like him

Sidenote, (Spoilers) I have a suspicion he's a Bhallspawn. He shares the same sir name as Grominir il Khan (a bhaalspawn from Saradush) and as stated, he does seem VERY powerful...

DMC

Oh please... if we're talking OP original characters I need only point you to Minsc and Edwin. Dorn is fine, and he's pretty much a slow-progressing glass cannon in terms of hitpoints versus damage-dealing. He only seems to shine because unfortunately Rasaad is terribad.

The worst past of it is that Rasaad's starting weapon profs are katana and wakazashi, both melee weapons, and has not a single ranged option even though he's the squishiest NPC to boot. I am seriously wanting to ditch him at this point, but I've discovered he's one of those NPC's that disappear forever if you remove him from you party. And since I've invested so much into him at this point, I just want to keep him alive long enough to trigger his quests and be done with him.

But Dorn? He's not exactly shrugging off blows and while he's offensively powerful, he often comes close to death (and in reloads) more often than Neera does, and I've got him in Ankheg armor at this point. He is one of the slower progressing NPC's due to using the Paladin XP chart, so I don't think he's particularly unbalanced. My bard and Imoen both have 2-3 levels up on him already.

Pantalion

Honestly the only "nerf" I would suggest would be to stop him from starting out with his uber two-handed sword. It's pretty jarring to have a level 1 character sporting what is effectively a +2 weapon.

Concerning his stats, I'm largely unconcerned. He's a Paladin, Paladins have superstats, and he's a Half-Orc, if he didn't have a 19 Strength, I'd wonder what the point was.

He's not really a tank, and overall he's occupying a similar place to Minsc in my party, damage-dealing melee who needs a little micromanagement to keep him healthy.

The_New_Romance

@DMC It may well be you're right, that the problem only stems from Rasaad being superbad (although I believe @Pantalions sword problem might also fuel the issue). Still, in that case something would have to be done about Rasaad to make him at least viable. I don't want a super-ninja-cat monster monk who decapitates dragons with his bare fists at level 3, but in his current state he's just so bad you could very well use Biff the Understudy in his place.

Regarding the 19 strength and his being a Half-Orc - there are other characters that don't max out on their race's special stat, like Yeslick, Kivan or Monty. Beamdog could have just given him an 18/xx STR and leave it up to the player whether to give him the boosting tome and make him even nastier. I think he should be in the game because he's an interesting character, not because the game needed a Half-Orc and those are strong so he should be super strong and then, to top it up, get an illegal but very powerful kit as a small addition. His lower HP are a disadvantage, but come on. No fighter-type NPC except Kagain has more than 17 CON, most have 16 or less, so in comparison he's missing out on about two HP per level at max hit rolls (which a lot of people don't enforce), which equals out to him being able to take approximately one and a half hits less than others at the end of the game. Hardly crippling, in my opinion.


Edit: I just did the maths; the average CON for all fighter types (single and multiclass) is 15.3. Dorn misses out a little, but really just a little, so yeah. Give him the tome, and he's very much up to par, while most likely being above average in the other stats and in his kit abilities.

Konabuga

Dorn is awesome, in combat and as a character. Heh, I just had a conversation with Dorn about honesty, in which I could let him know that someone was talking about him behind his back. When I pointed my finger at a companion, Dorns next lines were "Die monk/drow/temptress".

Also, I just found a few tv show easter eggs, one about the walking dead during Dorns sidequest and one was in conversation with him, where I could reply to him with the immortal line "I'm not in Danger Dorn, I AM the danger." Hah. Loved it and Dorn fell in line immediately.

Objulen

The devs did say that they wanted Dorn to be a mixed blessing PC, with strong combat power but penalties for having him in the party for social interactions -- paying more with merchants, that kind of thing. Has having Dorn in the party been tripping anyone up?

Konabuga

Absolutely not. Look, I avoided having Dorn kill any party members. So far atleast. Just don't be a wimp infront of him and I think you'll be fine. Dorn is my right hand man.

GoodSteve

Objulen said:

The devs did say that they wanted Dorn to be a mixed blessing PC, with strong combat power but penalties for having him in the party for social interactions -- paying more with merchants, that kind of thing. Has having Dorn in the party been tripping anyone up?

The only downside from what I can tell at this point is you get a -2 rep when you initially recruit him.

Aristillius

I actually think Rasaad is viable. Of course he isnt a fighter in heavy mail with 18/00 strength, but he is quick, I send him agaisnt enemy spellcasters and archers which he roundhouse-kicks to death pretty well. I have given him gauntlets of DEX and he is doing pretty well, and he lvls quickly too.

At first I was annoyed that he didnt have prof in ranged, but I gave him slings at lvl 3, and now he is good at ranged too, he has fighter base thaco after all.

Cohosh

Rasaad is fun. I'm using both Dorn and Rasaad. And Neera. And Viconia and Coran. And a true neutral Charname Wild mage. 2 evil, 2 neutral, 2 good. I'm nice and balanced. (I'm really really hoping for more Shar vs Selune debates). Actually Coran seems to be filling out my roster perfectly. He's so much better than Imoen at making bad guys very dead very quickly. Actually Neera is the weakest link, but only because Charname is hogging the best wizard loot, and shes sitting on a meager 3 spells/day.

Tanks you say?! tanks are for whimps. Viconia has the best AC in my party, and with her low Con she gets torn apart as fast as anyone else. the trick is to disable and shred all enemies within the first 2 rounds of combat. also i reload a lot hahahaha.

No but really Rasaad is definately viable. His greatest asset is his speed. Against opponents that are purely melee, I just give everyone but him a ranged weapon and kite with Rasaad. He runs circles around everything! As previously posted, he's also great at getting around your enemy's front line and striking their casters. Even when on the front lines, I move him out when he gets targeted, and back in when the enemy switches target to Dorn. I just gave him a point in Darts, and I think that'll add to his versatility a great deal. Now when hes almost dead and I have to run him away, he'll still be able to contribute.

Again, being a monk and not needing equipment also makes him a super cheap date! That's good too because having both Dorn and Viccy really makes people hate you. I just gave Keldoth several thousand gold so I could get slow poison over Horror. I'm all "why is my pc having nightmares? I'm a decent guy! Sure I'm guilty by association but why should that affect my subconscious?"

But back to Rasaad! I also think it's awesome that they intend to bring him back in BG2:EE where we all know he will turn into a bad ass dragon punching ninja, and I will get to think back on all the times I watched him get killed by wolves, and laugh. So theres that for all of us who like to think long-term.

Also it's not like every NPC in BG is amazing. That's kinda the point. You can challenge yourself in so many differnt ways in this game! One of coolest ways, imo, you can challenge yourself is by using sub-optimal party members. I've never used Tiax or Quayle or Faldorn or Garrick, but I'm sure lots of people have and appreciate them for their flavor and the alternate play-styles they provide. I've never played a monk in BG2 so I'm loving getting some experience with a weird class.

On the other hand, if you're playing some crazy no-reloads challenge, well then yea he's probably boarderline useless.


edit: wow i just wrote an essay about rasaad in a thread for Dorn. whoopsies sorry hahaha.

Konabuga

Rasaad is just a jerk. He's always cutting in line, always has to be the first everywhere. I'm like, "wait your turn, stay in formation!", but noooo. Not Rasaad. Sometimes I wish Dorn would just lop his head off already.

Schneidend

Dorn is a powerhouse, although in my game he spawned with a whopping HP total of 8. Kagain and my Blackguard PC looked at him with utter disgust. He's level 3 now, though, at 28 HP, so he's no longer capable of being one-shotted by an ogrillion or something.

Mechalibur

The way I see it, he's basically the Edwin of fighters.

Deucetipher

Considering this will eventually lead to BG2:EE, I think Rasaad is fine. Monks are terrible at low levels, but become brutally effective at high levels. If he was objectively good or even decent now, he would consequently be broken in BG2. Monk are like mages that way, but with an arguably steeper curve, at least in the midgame. 78% magic resistance, d20 damage fists, 4 attacks a round, stunning blow, and quivering palm are all good abilities. To balance that, maonks are very hard to start out with.

Rasaad will definitely surpass Dorn in power at some point in BG2, unless they add some crazy new blackguard items. Endgame SoA monk is better than endgame SoA palain.

Legacy of 2e rules. Take a character that is is hard to survive at low levels with and you are rewarded in the late game. A different conception of balance. 2e rules were largely unafraid to unbalance characters in various points of the game. Fighters rule through the first eight or nine levels, traditionally the hardest to survive. after that other classes tend to creep up in relative power.

Konabuga

I wish I could find boots of Grinding Halt to put on Rasaad. I need to cripple this monkey.

parklis2

Is aura of despair automatic or do I need to activate it?
I just started a black pits game and I can find it in special abilities.

joshykins

Once BG2:EE rolls around, and Rasaad is higher level, I have a feeling he's gonna be a powerhouse.

The_New_Romance

joshykins said:

Once BG2:EE rolls around, and Rasaad is higher level, I have a feeling he's gonna be a powerhouse.

I hope so. When I look at the Monk class description, I get really sad because we won't get to see any of that cool stuff until well into 2013...

begolf00

Balthazar was damn powerful. The first time I fought him, I thought he was by far the hardest to beat out of the Bhaalspawn. So yea Rasaad will become a badass later once BG2 rolls around.

bbear

Monks' natural 78% magic resistance at higher levels is so op. Give him the amulet of suldnessar, 2 ring of gaax and he is basically immune to anything magic (except sunfire and few others). Rassad at high levels becomes any lich and mage's worst nightmare.