I don't know if there was a discussion, but as much as I'd like to hit Grandmastery with Dual Classes, it simply must not happen. It should be removed, and hopefully in all likelihood will. It makes Fighter Duals too powerful not to remove it, it wouldn't have any sense to play Multi-fighters really, aside from HLAs.
Seeing that Grand Mastery was fixed, so must the dual-class grandmastery be.
I don't agree that your opinion on how dual classing is meant to work is a bug, rather its just something that you don't personally like.
Apparently you have problems with how the rules read in both the manuals in the PnP settings for video games, so I won't rehash the multiple arguments you've had with @Quartz. Instead I'll just say you're wrong (note that I said I wish that Multiclass characters could get Grand Mastery) and be on my way.
But furthermore, Mungri, as I said. The rules were PROPERLY implemented in the original Baldur's Gate and only became bugged in the BG2 engine. Whether its for a better gaming experience (not likely) or not, doesn't change the fact that it works opposite of how it states in the manuals and in the PnP ruleset.
You should be able to distribute proficiency points wherever you like on character creation, being capped to two in any weapon type shouldnt apply to fighters or archers.
To Archers: Agreed.
To Fighters: Disagree.
It's actually a rule from tabletop DnD that Fighters can't go beyond Specialize upon character generation, they are only allowed to go further upon .
I dont care much about tabletop DnD if it worsens the enjoyment of a video game.
Heresy!! The fact that its a video game is irrelevant. The main reason I play this game is my love for D&D, And the reason i use mods like Divine Remix and Rogue Rebalancing is to get the IE games as close to true AD&D 2e as I can. I am truly sorry if this "Worsens your enjoyment" but most of us here have enjoyed these rules just as they were written for over two decades and want this "video game" to reflect it.
I sort of agree. I do love AD&D 2nd edition, and always take the opportunity to use any mods that bring the game experience closer to what it was on tabletop.
I don't know if there was a discussion, but as much as I'd like to hit Grandmastery with Dual Classes, it simply must not happen. It should be removed, and hopefully in all likelihood will. It makes Fighter Duals too powerful not to remove it, it wouldn't have any sense to play Multi-fighters really, aside from HLAs.
Seeing that Grand Mastery was fixed, so must the dual-class grandmastery be.
But you cant remove it.
If I reach grandmastery at level 9-13 Fighter and then dual class, why should my points be removed? If I dual class from a Swashbuckler, why should I lose access to my kit bonus of being able to place 3 points in TWF after my swashbuckler levels are reactivated?
Dual classes should be allowed to place multiple proficiency points in their first class, they always have been able to, and the true grandmastery fix has been available for a very long time via mods. At the same time Multiclass fighters should be allowed to reach grandmastery as well.
I don't agree that your opinion on how dual classing is meant to work is a bug, rather its just something that you don't personally like.
Apparently you have problems with how the rules read in both the manuals in the PnP settings for video games, so I won't rehash the multiple arguments you've had with @Quartz. Instead I'll just say you're wrong (note that I said I wish that Multiclass characters could get Grand Mastery) and be on my way.
I've never read PnP rules and I care nothing about them. I dont want features that were originally present in BG1 + 2 to be removed just because PnP says they shouldnt have been there. Larlochs Monor Drain, and likely several other spells were never present in PnP, so I suppose you think that they should be removed? In PnP you need spell components to cast spells, so I suppose you want spell components added to Bg as well?
If you want to play strictly by PnP, then feel free to play PnP. Dont try to alter my game from what the developers originally intended unless something is broke. Dual classes being able to reach grandmastery is not a broken mechanic, if you dont like it then play your own RP games where you dont do it.
I sort of agree. I do love AD&D 2nd edition, and always take the opportunity to use any mods that bring the game experience closer to what it was on tabletop.
Then use mods to do that, stop using PnP rules as a reason to force changes into the game that have been present since the day it was made. If it isnt brokem dont fix it.
I've never read PnP rules and I care nothing about them. I dont want features that were originally present in BG1 + 2 to be removed just because PnP says they shouldnt have been there.
If you want to play strictly by PnP, then feel free to play PnP. Dont try to alter my game from what the developers originally intended unless something is broke. Dual classes being able to reach grandmastery is not a broken mechanic, if you dont like it then play your own RP games where you dont do it.
The actual Baldur's Gate manuals were also brought up, where it was similar. Even if we looked at those, instead of the tabletop rules (and we should), you would be wrong.
So my Half-Orc 'Zerker can't get Grand Mastery in BG:EE, but he could in BG1? That kinda sucks. If we go by the correct rule-set of the 2nd edition, and allow only 2 points upon character generation for a maximum proficiency, which level would you therefor be able to attain Grand Mastery? Level 9?
I've never read PnP rules and I care nothing about them. I dont want features that were originally present in BG1 + 2 to be removed just because PnP says they shouldnt have been there.
If you want to play strictly by PnP, then feel free to play PnP. Dont try to alter my game from what the developers originally intended unless something is broke. Dual classes being able to reach grandmastery is not a broken mechanic, if you dont like it then play your own RP games where you dont do it.
The actual Baldur's Gate manuals were also brought up, where it was similar. Even if we looked at those, instead of the tabletop rules (and we should), you would be wrong.
Make a scan or photo, or post a link of where the original BG manuals say that dual classed characters cannot reach grandmastery.
So my Half-Orc 'Zerker can't get Grand Mastery in BG:EE, but he could in BG1? That kinda sucks. If we go by the correct rule-set of the 2nd edition, and allow only 2 points upon character generation for a maximum proficiency, which level would you therefor be able to attain Grand Mastery? Level 9?
Yes level 9. You can easily gain grandmastery at level 9 and then dual class. In most cases your second class wont give anywhere near enough proficiency points to reach grandmastery elsewhere after your fighter levels are reactivated, and such builds will focus on reaching grandmastery in their chosen weapon type before dual classing anyway.
It was my understanding that the exp cap in BG:EE is 161,000 exp. If this is true, then Fighters/kits can only reach level 8 as per the progression charts? Which would mean only 2 proficiency points unless you lifted the cap to 250,000 exp? Is this right?
I don't know if there was a discussion, but as much as I'd like to hit Grandmastery with Dual Classes, it simply must not happen. It should be removed, and hopefully in all likelihood will. It makes Fighter Duals too powerful not to remove it, it wouldn't have any sense to play Multi-fighters really, aside from HLAs.
Seeing that Grand Mastery was fixed, so must the dual-class grandmastery be.
But you cant remove it.
If I reach grandmastery at level 9-13 Fighter and then dual class, why should my points be removed? If I dual class from a Swashbuckler, why should I lose access to my kit bonus of being able to place 3 points in TWF after my swashbuckler levels are reactivated?
Dual classes should be allowed to place multiple proficiency points in their first class, they always have been able to, and the true grandmastery fix has been available for a very long time via mods. At the same time Multiclass fighters should be allowed to reach grandmastery as well.
I think you either have read everything I've written or your just choosing to ignore it so I'm going to lay out exactly what I mean.
If you take your initial 4 points you can reach specialized into up to 2 different weapons.
So we'll stay your starting cleric wants to be safe and knows that the Warhammer +2 is available early and is one of the best weapons in game. On the other hand you care about your safety and know that ranged attacks are quite useful in the early game and most of BG2. Therefore your level 1 Fighter has the following Weapon Proficiency:
Warhammer ++ Sling ++
If you dual at level 2, to cleric, then you should not be able to get above specialized in any weapon at this point. You just got 2 levels in fighter for a few extra HP, the ability to specialize and a slightly better Thac0.
If you dual at level 3, chances are you want to improve your melee weapon again. So now your proficiency looks as following.
Warhammer +++ Sling ++
At level 6 you further improve Warhammer
Warhammer ++++ Sling ++
This is the latest you can dual in BGEE and still regain your cleric levels. What this means is that you should retain your High Mastery (++++ points) in Warhammers, but you should not be able to add anymore points into warhammers and not go beyond specialized (++) in any other weapon you choose to use.
I am FINE with dual classed fighter/clerics retaining their original weapon proficiency once they reactivate fighter, that's one of the trade-offs you run into with dual classing.
The problem that arises in BGEE and the BG2 engine is that the cleric gains Weapon Proficiency at level 1, 4, and 8.
What this means is that currently in the engine, once you reach 8th level cleric you can put a final point into Warhammer and reach Grand Mastery. Furthermore, you can do this at any level you dual class. I'm fine with you having grand mastery in your chosen weapon if you dual at 9, or Grand Mastery and Mastery in another Weapon or High Mastery in 2 weapons at 13. What I'm not fine with is further being able to develop your weapons after you freeze your fighter levels.
If you dual at 3 or 6, you should lose out on being able to progress them any farther in that weapon once you become a cleric, mage or thief. Not only does it not make sense, it further penalizes multi-class characters who cannot go beyond specialized in a given weapon.
TL;DR: I'm fine with you keeping your current rate of weapon progression when you dual, but you should not be able to further improve upon it after you're no longer a fighter.
I understand everything you're saying. I simply dont agree that it should be changed like that. After dual classing my fighter to whatever else and regaining my fighter levels, I want to put new proficiencies wherever I want them in whatever weapons are valid for the class combo. I dont remember it ever being different to this, and this how the game has always been for me.
Now if you dont like doing that, then surely you can simply refrain from putting your points where you think they shouldn't be allowed to go after you have dual classed. This isn't a bug fix at all as you are trying to claim it to be, it is simply a nerf that negatively impacts other players choices in the game.
If you've dual-classed away from fighter, then you can no longer advance as one - only retain your original fighter skills. Putting a point somewhere to become a grandmaster would, effectively, advance you as a fighter, not your other class: as such it would make pretty good sense to me that you couldn't do so.
When you advance your second class beyond the levels in your first class, you regain the abilities of your previous class. To me one of those abilities if your first class is a fighter is being able to carry on towards reaching grandmastery if you want to.
Regardless of your reasoning, I don't believe that it is stated in the BG1 manual that you can no longer do that after unlocking your fighter levels.
Also according to your reasoning, dual class fighters to thieves or mages should no longer be able to place new proficiencies into weapons not allowed by their second class, because they are no longer advancing as a fighter, yet the manual states that these dual classes can use any fighter weapons if they want to.
When you advance your second class beyond the levels in your first class, you regain the abilities of your previous class. To me one of those abilities if your first class is a fighter is being able to carry on towards reaching grandmastery if you want to.
You gain the abilities you already had, not the ability to advance them further. Otherwise you could just keep on having fighter levels, by the exact same logic.
I thought they got rid of the ability that allowed fighters who dualed to reach grand mastery in BG1.
As it stands, you're technically not supposed to be able to go above specialized (unless you had already reached that point previously) after you dual out of fighter, similar to multi-class.
Example:
You're level 6 fighter has High Mastery in Warhammers when he duals cleric.
He cannot gain grand mastery in Warhammers, although he still benefits from high mastery once he recovers his levels, but on the same token he shouldn't be allowed to go beyond specialized in something like maces or flails.
When you advance your second class beyond the levels in your first class, you regain the abilities of your previous class. To me one of those abilities if your first class is a fighter is being able to carry on towards reaching grandmastery if you want to.
You gain the abilities you already had, not the ability to advance them further. Otherwise you could just keep on having fighter levels, by the exact same logic.
So should fighters dualed to thieves or mages no longer be allowed to place proficiencies into weapons prohibited by their new class like clerics and druids?
I thought they got rid of the ability that allowed fighters who dualed to reach grand mastery in BG1.
As it stands, you're technically not supposed to be able to go above specialized (unless you had already reached that point previously) after you dual out of fighter, similar to multi-class.
Example:
You're level 6 fighter has High Mastery in Warhammers when he duals cleric.
He cannot gain grand mastery in Warhammers, although he still benefits from high mastery once he recovers his levels, but on the same token he shouldn't be allowed to go beyond specialized in something like maces or flails.
Firstly, its not a 'bug' therefore it doesn't need to be 'fixed'.
Its a 'feature request' that the developers chose not to implement because they are not allowed to change the original engine or rules of the game, regardless of what is stated in PnP rules.
So should fighters dualed to thieves or mages no longer be allowed to place proficiencies into weapons prohibited by their new class like clerics and druids?
I don't even remember how it is right now, but probably not.
Why does this have to be a either-or situation? I suggest a compromise!
If someone like me (Or @Dragonspear ) set our sliders to "Core Rules" We should get core rules!
But if @Mungri or someone else like-minded as he wants to put his slider to "Normal" Or whatever sissy setting is below that, They should get the variant rules that have always been there.
The reason that I feel that fighter duals need the ability to get GM is the existence of the Ranger/Cleric Dual. Druid spells not withstanding, there is no point to be a Fighter/Cleric dual if you cannot get Grand Mastery, if you can be a Ranger/Cleric Dual. As a Ranger, you would get two free pips in two weapon fighting, a favored enemy, and a limited Stealth skill. the only downside is having to be good.
The reason that I feel that fighter duals need the ability to get GM is the existence of the Ranger/Cleric Dual. Druid spells not withstanding, there is no point to be a Fighter/Cleric dual if you cannot get Grand Mastery, if you can be a Ranger/Cleric Dual. As a Ranger, you would get two free pips in two weapon fighting, a favored enemy, and a limited Stealth skill. the only downside is having to be good.
This particular issue has nothing to do with difficulty level.
I don't get why this is such a big deal - how about if you don't like it, then you don't do it in your game? I'm not holding a gun to your head and forcing you to reach grandmastery with your second classes profficiency points.
If you don't want to do it, then simply don't do it. Nothing needs to be changed.
This particular issue has nothing to do with difficulty level.
I don't get why this is such a big deal - how about if you don't like it, then you don't do it in your game? I'm not holding a gun to your head and forcing you to reach grandmastery with your second classes profficiency points.
If you don't want to do it, then simply don't do it. Nothing needs to be changed.
There's a little thing in PnP called house rules, these allow players to do anything the DM deems fitting. Such as clerics with swords and humans being able to Multi-class.
Baulder's gate version of house rules is mods. If you want to do anything that's against the intended rules then feel free to download some mods, but don't try and stop people fixing bugs and coding errors.
PS: do you think you should be allowed to; start as a level 1 fighter (putting all your points into short-swords and single weapon style) then dual to Thief at level 2 and continue to level up as a thief and achieve grand mastery in Longbows?
Comments
Seeing that Grand Mastery was fixed, so must the dual-class grandmastery be.
But furthermore, Mungri, as I said. The rules were PROPERLY implemented in the original Baldur's Gate and only became bugged in the BG2 engine. Whether its for a better gaming experience (not likely) or not, doesn't change the fact that it works opposite of how it states in the manuals and in the PnP ruleset.
If I reach grandmastery at level 9-13 Fighter and then dual class, why should my points be removed? If I dual class from a Swashbuckler, why should I lose access to my kit bonus of being able to place 3 points in TWF after my swashbuckler levels are reactivated?
Dual classes should be allowed to place multiple proficiency points in their first class, they always have been able to, and the true grandmastery fix has been available for a very long time via mods. At the same time Multiclass fighters should be allowed to reach grandmastery as well. I've never read PnP rules and I care nothing about them. I dont want features that were originally present in BG1 + 2 to be removed just because PnP says they shouldnt have been there. Larlochs Monor Drain, and likely several other spells were never present in PnP, so I suppose you think that they should be removed? In PnP you need spell components to cast spells, so I suppose you want spell components added to Bg as well?
If you want to play strictly by PnP, then feel free to play PnP. Dont try to alter my game from what the developers originally intended unless something is broke. Dual classes being able to reach grandmastery is not a broken mechanic, if you dont like it then play your own RP games where you dont do it.
Then use mods to do that, stop using PnP rules as a reason to force changes into the game that have been present since the day it was made. If it isnt brokem dont fix it.
I think you either have read everything I've written or your just choosing to ignore it so I'm going to lay out exactly what I mean.
If you take your initial 4 points you can reach specialized into up to 2 different weapons.
So we'll stay your starting cleric wants to be safe and knows that the Warhammer +2 is available early and is one of the best weapons in game. On the other hand you care about your safety and know that ranged attacks are quite useful in the early game and most of BG2. Therefore your level 1 Fighter has the following Weapon Proficiency:
Warhammer ++
Sling ++
If you dual at level 2, to cleric, then you should not be able to get above specialized in any weapon at this point. You just got 2 levels in fighter for a few extra HP, the ability to specialize and a slightly better Thac0.
If you dual at level 3, chances are you want to improve your melee weapon again. So now your proficiency looks as following.
Warhammer +++
Sling ++
At level 6 you further improve Warhammer
Warhammer ++++
Sling ++
This is the latest you can dual in BGEE and still regain your cleric levels. What this means is that you should retain your High Mastery (++++ points) in Warhammers, but you should not be able to add anymore points into warhammers and not go beyond specialized (++) in any other weapon you choose to use.
I am FINE with dual classed fighter/clerics retaining their original weapon proficiency once they reactivate fighter, that's one of the trade-offs you run into with dual classing.
The problem that arises in BGEE and the BG2 engine is that the cleric gains Weapon Proficiency at level 1, 4, and 8.
What this means is that currently in the engine, once you reach 8th level cleric you can put a final point into Warhammer and reach Grand Mastery. Furthermore, you can do this at any level you dual class. I'm fine with you having grand mastery in your chosen weapon if you dual at 9, or Grand Mastery and Mastery in another Weapon or High Mastery in 2 weapons at 13. What I'm not fine with is further being able to develop your weapons after you freeze your fighter levels.
If you dual at 3 or 6, you should lose out on being able to progress them any farther in that weapon once you become a cleric, mage or thief. Not only does it not make sense, it further penalizes multi-class characters who cannot go beyond specialized in a given weapon.
TL;DR: I'm fine with you keeping your current rate of weapon progression when you dual, but you should not be able to further improve upon it after you're no longer a fighter.
Now if you dont like doing that, then surely you can simply refrain from putting your points where you think they shouldn't be allowed to go after you have dual classed. This isn't a bug fix at all as you are trying to claim it to be, it is simply a nerf that negatively impacts other players choices in the game.
When you advance your second class beyond the levels in your first class, you regain the abilities of your previous class. To me one of those abilities if your first class is a fighter is being able to carry on towards reaching grandmastery if you want to.
Regardless of your reasoning, I don't believe that it is stated in the BG1 manual that you can no longer do that after unlocking your fighter levels.
Also according to your reasoning, dual class fighters to thieves or mages should no longer be able to place new proficiencies into weapons not allowed by their second class, because they are no longer advancing as a fighter, yet the manual states that these dual classes can use any fighter weapons if they want to.
Apparently it has not been fixed: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/160959#Comment_160959
Its a 'feature request' that the developers chose not to implement because they are not allowed to change the original engine or rules of the game, regardless of what is stated in PnP rules.
If someone like me (Or @Dragonspear ) set our sliders to "Core Rules" We should get core rules!
But if @Mungri or someone else like-minded as he wants to put his slider to "Normal" Or whatever sissy setting is below that, They should get the variant rules that have always been there.
I don't get why this is such a big deal - how about if you don't like it, then you don't do it in your game? I'm not holding a gun to your head and forcing you to reach grandmastery with your second classes profficiency points.
If you don't want to do it, then simply don't do it. Nothing needs to be changed.
Baulder's gate version of house rules is mods. If you want to do anything that's against the intended rules then feel free to download some mods, but don't try and stop people fixing bugs and coding errors.
PS: do you think you should be allowed to; start as a level 1 fighter (putting all your points into short-swords and single weapon style) then dual to Thief at level 2 and continue to level up as a thief and achieve grand mastery in Longbows?