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[Request] PnP bonuses for high INT and WIS scores

AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,530
edited September 2012 in Feature Requests
Originally posted on /r/FriendsOfBaldursGate.

I'll come out of the closet and admit it: I'm a rules lawyer. I'd like BG to adhere as strictly as possible to the AD&D rules found in the manuals. Why? Well, if it's an AD&D game I expect it to follow the rules. House rules are fine when they serve the story, or if you need unique monsters or characters, but they just get on my nerves when they are gratuitous.

Now, I know there is no time for Overhaul Games to re-work the entire engine in order to make it completely P&P and that's fine, so long as compatibility with mods that do is retained (aTWEAKS being the most notable example, together with Rogue Rebalancing and P&P Celestials; other mods like BG2 Fixpack and BG2 Tweakpack also have a few P&P components).

There is, however, one thing that necessarily requires .exe hacking to implement because it's hard-coded: full benefits for high INT and WIS scores.

I know this is not likely to have a huge impact for most characters, but CHARNAME is given the possibility to reach a WIS score of 23 without cheating and they should have more than just a few bonus divine spells to show it. Besides, creatures whose INT and WIS score was beyond 18 should also have the same benefits (namely, immunity to certain spells as per the Player's Handbook).

Either implement it or make it soft-coded so that modders could easily take care of it.
Post edited by Bhryaen on
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Comments

  • CadrosCadros Member Posts: 253
    I would also like to have a copy of the DnD 2.5 rules the devs are working from. I rang up Wizards of the Coast today and they don't produce those rules anymore, and I think it is unrealistic for everyone on here to get the same copy of rules second hand (especially as we would be bidding against each other. Could we get an onsite version of the rules, if it is the game customised version then it wouldn't pose so much of a risk for wizards losing IP to piracy (not that I think they would lose anything significant given they no longer produce it in any form)
  • HeroicSpurHeroicSpur Member Posts: 907
    I think this thread would be better served with a different title, 'P&P Bonuses for High Int+Wis'. The reason I say that is this excellent suggestion risks being buried.

    I think the importance of this is particularly resonant for intelligence. At least high wisdom nets a palpable benefit for the class that uses it, unfortunately intelligence is almost purely a formality. A more intelligent mage is no more effective at spellcasting than a dumb one. Allowing some sort of rule compliant bonus for higher intelligence would be highly desirable.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    high intelligence already gives bonus spells, lore and %chance to learn new spells no?
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    It doesn't give bonus spells (Wisdom does that). That's a big part of the problem.
  • HeroicSpurHeroicSpur Member Posts: 907
    %chance to learn spells is irrelevant as on default difficulty spell learning is automatic. Lore is something which while generally convenient, is made largely redundant by ready access to identification methods. Intelligence doesn't grant bonus spells.

    Like Aosaw says, the problem here is readily apparent. Compare a bonus point of intelligence to a bonus point of dexterity. The former does almost nothing, the later will giver higher AC, to hit bonus with ranged weapons, as well as bonuses to thief skills. Strength similarly nets bonuses to hit, damage, and carry capacity.

    Intelligence could really do with some sort of boost, and if that's possible in a manner which is rule compliant, all the better.

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    Worth noting: even Charisma is more widely useful than Intelligence. And Charisma is pretty darn useless.
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 950
    If we adhered to P&P, non-Humans would be useless.

    Does anyone else remember Goldbox games and their RACIAL level limits following 2E laws.
  • pacekpacek Member Posts: 92
    Intelligence lets you memorize more spells.
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    @pacek: It should. But it doesn't. ;)
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,530
    @Dazzu

    I'm acquainted with those racial limitations, and I have never understood them. In fact, that is one P&P thing that I would NOT like to see implemented.
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,530
    @HeroicSpur

    I'm still having issues posting new threads and/or editing older ones when they exceed a few lines of text on this computer (oddly enough, on my mother's laptop everything was fine). I'll edit this thread's title asap as per your suggestion.
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 950
    @Dazzu

    I'm acquainted with those racial limitations, and I have never understood them. In fact, that is one P&P thing that I would NOT like to see implemented.
    I certainly hope lower female strength limits are in that list as well

  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,530
    I certainly hope lower female strength limits are in that list as well
    I wasn't even aware of that.
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,530
    edited June 2012
    Thread title duly edited as per @HeroicSpur 's suggestion.
  • AliteriAliteri Member Posts: 308
    Does anyone have a copy/pdf of 2nd edition ADnD handy? Actually putting the intended bonuses for INT and WIS on the original post would make the topic look more professional ~.^.
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,530
    @Aliteri

    I do own the AD&D Player's Handbook. I will add the PnP effects of high INT and WIS scores asap, though it would really help if it was possible to add tables to the posts (it would look a lot cleaner).
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,530
    Originally posted on /r/FriendsOfBaldursGate by Galactygon as an answer to this request:

    I agree with AndreaC, and would like to elaborate on this request.

    I think the best way to implement this is to allow a bunch of .eff files to be carried by characters according to what value of what stat they have (be it INT, WIS, CHA, STR).

    If it were up to me, I would make 6 .2da tables (one for each stat), the columns would represent the stat number (from 1 to 25), and the rows for the corresponding columns would call for the resource of an .eff.

    For example (the columns are not in line):

    1 2 3

    EFF11 EFF21 EFF31

    EFF12 EFF22 ***

    Here a .cre with one of their stats set to 1 would carry EFF11.eff and EFF12.eff. Setting that particular stat to 3 would mean EFF11.eff and EFF12.eff would be internally removed and EFF31.eff would be applied to the .cre.
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,530
    CON also has a bunch of P&P effects that aren't in the game, though I'm not 100% sure about some. Two effects that I am sure were not implemented are System Shock and Resurrection Survival. I'm not sure about the bonus to saving throws against poison and regeneration (though if memory serves, the latter has indeed been implemented).

    From the AD&D Player's Handbook - "System shock states the percentage chance a character has to survive magical effects that reshape or age his body: petrification (and reversing petrification), polymorph, magical aging, etc."

    "Resurrection survival lists a character's percentage chance to be successfully resurrected or raised from death by magic."
  • KoreKore Member Posts: 245
    Regeneration has been implemented in game, try beating up Kaigan within an inch of his life and then resting.

    While I'm sure PnP rules are valid, I'm worried about the effect that it will have on the game. I am entirely in favour of making INT and WIS into desirable stats, but I'm never really a fan of immunities.

    You might be able to tell that I'd advocate an entirely custom ruleset if the opportunity arose.
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,530
    @Kore

    I don't see those immunities breaking the game. INT and WIS scores so high are only available to monsters, and to CHARNAME later in the game (and CHARNAME will never get to 25 in any stat without cheating).
  • KoreKore Member Posts: 245
    Well the INT ones won't be that gamebreaking, but CHARNAME can easily get up to 23 WIS which gives a pretty large number of immunities...
  • AliteriAliteri Member Posts: 308
    Well the INT ones won't be that gamebreaking, but CHARNAME can easily get up to 23 WIS which gives a pretty large number of immunities...
    Well... I don't remember those spells even being a issue by then. Besides, there's also a complete separate issue of people rerolling their stats until they get 90+ - if you actually 'sacrificed' the maximum potential of some attributes to acquire 23 wis, there shouldn't be any problems with it, IMO.
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    Even then, it would only be an issue if you were using a full party of CHARNAME's. I think its a nice addition to make INT and WIS more interesting.

    I also have a question concerning 2E rules. Is it normal for Paladins and Rangers to not get bonus priest spells with wisdom and capping out at being able to memorize only 3 spells of level 1, 2 and 3?
  • BoasterBoaster Member Posts: 622

    Either implement it or make it soft-coded so that modders could easily take care of it.
    Agreed!
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 950
    edited June 2012
    @Kore

    I don't see those immunities breaking the game. INT and WIS scores so high are only available to monsters, and to CHARNAME later in the game (and CHARNAME will never get to 25 in any stat without cheating).
    If I roll and 18, use a Wis Tome, Lum's Machine and an Ioun Stone of +1 Wis which I believe exists, all I need is an insight potion (or whichever 1 is +4 Wis) to suddenly laugh at any mage.

    Although, why would anyone want wisdom enough to be immune to questing?
  • AliteriAliteri Member Posts: 308
    edited June 2012
    Even then, it would only be an issue if you were using a full party of CHARNAME's. I think its a nice addition to make INT and WIS more interesting.
    Besides, doesn't the 'melee' stats confer immunity to the woes of THAC0 RNG? =p Sounds much more useful than seeing through any illusion. If someone is interested in shadowkeeping a game breaking Charname, then so be it, they'll break the game with extreme strenght and dexterity as much as they will with extreme intelligence and wisdom.

    Furthermore, since luck and patience feature proeminently on RPG and strategy games in general, respectively, if you can roll 90+ stats with, say, a fighter or a mage, then you should feel proud about it. Better than a program that instantly rolls for your or even feeling 'gimped' by a average character (after all, you're a demigod, certainly not supposed to be average, the stats might as well as be in character).
  • KoreKore Member Posts: 245
    @Kore

    I don't see those immunities breaking the game. INT and WIS scores so high are only available to monsters, and to CHARNAME later in the game (and CHARNAME will never get to 25 in any stat without cheating).
    If I roll and 18, use a Wis Tome, Lum's Machine and an Ioun Stone of +1 Wis which I believe exists, all I need is an insight potion (or whichever 1 is +4 Wis) to suddenly laugh at any mage.

    Although, why would anyone want wisdom enough to be immune to questing?
    With the correct race, all three tomes, lums machine and the ioun stone you can get 24 easily and wisdom potions are pretty abundant.
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