While I agree that increasing the benefits for epic level intelligence/wisdom would be awesome, how would immunity to illusions of a certain level be implemented? Let's say, for instance, with an intelligence of 20, you are immune to second level illusion spells. Does that include Mirror image? If it does, how could they code it in such a way that the mirror images are seen through by one specific character and not others? That sounds like something exceedingly difficult to accomplish, but perhaps I am missing some quick and easy way to do it. If we have it like infra-fail-vision and the entire party sees through, then even a 20 int will fast become insanely powerful and easily attainable with a gnome and a tome or even just a potion of genius for a fast and easy constant true sight through BG1. All defensive illusions would be completely pointless, and that would heavily re-balance the game.
If it doesn't affect the defensive illusions and only the illusions cast on CHARNAME (or whoever), it sounds like an interesting tweak for limited use. Essentially, blindness and spook (Level 1 spells!) would be off the table against CHARNAME and...well...that's pretty much all the illusions enemies might cast. So yes, I like the spirit of what everyone is saying here, but is it really worth dev time? The only offensive illusion spell I would love to be immune to is never cast because there are no epic level enemy druids to blind me with their beauty. Glitterdust would be nice, but it's enchantment as I recall. What else is there, besides potential new spells that would count as offensive illusions?
So yeah, I would love bonuses from high powered intelligence that are actually useful but I don't see how they could be implemented in such a way as to be useful but not completely change the balance of the game.
As for wisdom, that all just sounds cool. Moderately useless, but cool. Personally, I enjoy the many bonus spells clerics/druids get with exceptional wisdom as it is, so adding more would just be icing to me. An extra iron skin and a few extra nymphs in bgtutu level cap is just plain sexy. That's like 3 extra level 5 spells (Since I always think of the level 4 nymph spells as Mass Cure with benefits). As for the magic bonus, as I recall, magic bonus only applies to certain types of spells...so it would have to be a flat bonus to saves-vs-spells or the devs would have to completely re-work the system in order to only get them to work against the spells they should work against, which sounds like a daunting venture again to me. Is it really worth precious dev time? If people really want it in, the flat bonus to saves-vs-spells sounds easily moddable to me, albeit I haven't worked with specifics of the infinity engine in a while.
Per PnP 2nd Edition, Monks receive an experience bonus of 10% if they have 16 Wis and 16 Int. I have included this in my Monk Rebalancing thread.
All classes in 2nd Edition receive a 10% xp bonus if they have 16 or more in all of their pre-requisite stats. I don't think this implemented for any class so I doubt if monks should be the exception.
As for the wisdom benefits. As a compromise I could possibly see that coding individual spells to be immune to based on your Wisdom score might be a pain. However the saving throw bonuses should be implemented at the very least (bring on my dwarven Fighter/Cleric with 18 CON/WIS and +9 vs spells )
@Zaor they cay use the thief feature "detect illusion", set it to always active as a thief with 100% points on it, but limited to a restricted spell list or spell level.
I don't feel that this feature would be unbalanced, as the relations is:
19 - 1° circle spells
to
25 - 7° circle spells
Hardly someone will achieve more than 20 int points on BG (gnome and only after find the inteligence tome, that is on Baldur's Gate and therefore only accessible after chapter 6), what brings immunity to level 2° spells only, pretty fair and only mirror image and blur would be affected (from the useful spells).
In BG2 you can achieve 22 perma int points if i'm not wrong and use a ion gem to boost more 1 point to achieve 23 points, but in ToB, be immune to level 5 circle spells or less is totaly justified.
All classes in 2nd Edition receive a 10% xp bonus if they have 16 or more in all of their pre-requisite stats. I don't think this implemented for any class so I doubt if monks should be the exception.
I did not know that. In the book I read, this was pointed out in general description about the class. If that rule applied to all, I wonder why would the author felt the need to point it out a second time.
@Zaor they cay use the thief feature "detect illusion", set it to always active as a thief with 100% points on it, but limited to a restricted spell list or spell level.
I don't feel that this feature would be unbalanced, as the relations is:
19 - 1° circle spells
to
25 - 7° circle spells
Hardly someone will achieve more than 20 int points on BG (gnome and only after find the inteligence tome, that is on Baldur's Gate and therefore only accessible after chapter 6), what brings immunity to level 2° spells only, pretty fair and only mirror image and blur would be affected (from the useful spells).
In BG2 you can achieve 22 perma int points if i'm not wrong and use a ion gem to boost more 1 point to achieve 23 points, but in ToB, be immune to level 5 circle spells or less is totaly justified.
Immunity to Invisibility (Including potions). It would neuter all enemy thieves. Think of how many thieves just love the invisibility potion and stab technique. Maybe it's just me thinking with my SCS hat on. So many minor sequencer: invisibility + mirror images in scs bg1. At least most of them are before you could hit 20.
I do feel it shouldn't apply to the entire party. It feels like that would cheapen the effect. True, it would be much more useful, but...I don't know. If the effect were to be implemented, I would prefer a method that doesn't make it seem like...well...infravision in all its fail. With that said, I can't imagine how, so whatever. I do feel like it will effect balance, making gnome mages more powerful and backstabbers less so.
I don't know if invisible potions are recognized by the game as spells, and if they are, i don't know in which level they're recognized as i rarely use divination spells in BG to dispell illusions (never need before), and in BG2 i always stick with True Sight (lvl 6 mage/cleric) that dispel any kind of invisibility (be magic or no) of any level.
IF potions are labeled as spells in BG, i truly doubt they're registered as level 2 spells, and if they are, we just need to raise their spell level on infinite engine, something that doesn't appear to be too hard to be done. Besides, the detection isn't instantly and any enemy too close to you can drink and hit before your inteligence bonus dispel the invisibility.
This feature could stop some cheese tatics as the multiple use of staff of the magi, enemies in BG always backstab when thiefs and invisible (no matter in which position they're from you), enemies would benefit from this implement and that could make the game harder.
Remember that level 2 illusion immunity will be only achieved as a gnome and at the end of BG, i made a research about the inteligence status boost and there's only 1 tome of inteligence, the +1 inteligence point from the machine of lum the mad and the inteligence ion stone, this all sum a total of:
Max 22 int points if you're a gnome (therefore immunity to level 4 illusions spells only). Max 21 int points if you're not a gnome (therefore immunity to level 3 illusions spells only).
So magics like shadow door and mass invisibility would not even be affected by the implement of this feature.
Ps: gnomes being more powerful would be a nice thing as many people avoid this race for the restrictions of romance (aerie only) and the fact that every gnome MUST be an illusionist if they're mages. The thief problems with mages are the total overpower of stoneskin or immunity to normal/magical weapons/magical weapons +x or lower that the game provide for mages, to solve that add poisons to the game and make those poisons be able to hit the mage no matter if they're immune would be a better form of balance than keep an P&P balanced feature out of the game.
I was even more upset by the lack of any bonus mage spells for high INT. It kept me from trying to play a mage, as low-level mage (5 HP, I think) can't even fight off a couple gibberlings, while a LVL 1 fighter will dispatch them with speedy speed.
It's a natual balance, late game in BG2, mages will be pratically invencibles if used on the right fashion, no high level fighter can fight in single fight a high level mage unless with some special items (Carsomyr, silver sword, +5 weapon with an normal weapon on the quick slot, unless it's a lich, then you're probally fu****, as they have natural normal weapon immunity).
I would think this would have a thread already. If it does I am sorry. I searched for "wisdom" and could not find it. I want to say it was even mentioned in the game manual. This for the clerics and druids who do not have the magic protection as a mage and just makes sense that the exceptionally wise are better protected from mental control and mystic tom-foolery. It always felt missing and made wisdom feel silly and unbeneficial to most. It was literally just a number.
Edit: Ah, sorry. I did not search for abbreviations. What I was specifically mentioning was that wisdom at high levels helping you with spell saves.
I think in the phb for 2nd ed, a high wisdom also starts to grant immunity to either charm and/or illusion spells. Pretty intereesting. Intelligence does something like this too I believe.
Yeah, there are a couple of threads on this one. Everyone is pretty much in favour of this change. We have to speak as one loud and angry voice to beamdog and cry for justice!
Due to these stat rolls, this character cannot be an elf by 2nd ed rules, and can't be a mage. This character will be a dwarven fighter/cleric, gaining +1 con, -1 dex, and -2 cha. I roll the starting health, and this poor dwarf has 3 HP at level 1. Truly a gifted cleric too, with only a 10% spell failure rate...
9 str 12 dex 6 con 12 int 11 wis 11 cha
Due to these stat rolls, this character cannot be a dwarf, elf, gnome, or halfling, but can be a fighter, mage, cleric, or thief. This character I will make into a half-elf mage. A lucky roll, 3 HP at level 1 for a mage. A pretty talented mage too, if I do say so myself, only a 50% FAILURE RATE TO LEARN A SPELL!
9 str 11 dex 14 con 9 int 8 wis 10 cha
This character can be any race, but cannot be a cleric. This character shall be an elven fighter/thief, gaining +1 dex, and -1 con. This character starts with 5 HP at level 1. I could technically make him a dwarven fighter, and he'd have had 15 con, and 7 HP with what I rolled.
-------------------------------
Also consider the effects of aging:
Middle Age: -1 Str/Con, +1 Int/Wis Old Age: -2 Str/Dex, -1 Con, +1 Wis (-3 Str, -2 Dex/Con, +1 Int, +2 Wis total) Venerable: -1 Str/Dex/Con, +1 Int/Wis (-4 Str, -3 Dex/Con, +2 Int, +3 Wis total)
At Venerable my half-elf mage will have
5 str 9 dex 3 con 14 int 14 wis 11 cha
and with that level of intelligence, will be able to learn 7th level spells, and will only have a 40% chance to fail to learn a new spell. Also, since a 3 was rolled for starting HP at level 1, the character will have at the very least 2 HP at level 9. That being said, the character likely won't be resurrectable at that point, as the process will remove 1 constitution, which will increase the HP penalty to -2 per level, so unless this character manages to get more than 18 HP, death is permanent. With 19 HP in rolls by level 9, the character will have a 45% chance to survive a raise dead, and will resurrect with 1/1 HP. Exciting isn't it!? ^^
@fighter_mage_thief: Not sure what your argument is from that post, other then that 2nd edition PnP can be incredibly tough.
Understandable. All I'm saying is that I rolled 3d6 18 times, and the highest stat I got was a 14, and not where I would have preferred it. I think that being able to reroll as many times as you want, adjust stats, and increase them with tomes is a drawback in the game. The same goes for maxing out HP every level. When I see a thread like this, requesting the pnp bonuses for high Int and Wis, I find it a bit depressing, because who is going to have 25 in Int and Wis? Only someone who exploits the game, with the exception of that one mysterious potion in BG 1 that sets your Int to 25 for a period of time. That being said, it's the story of a bhaalspawn, so that has to count for something.
I don't really need benefits for a 25 score in everything. I guess my problem is the current WIS and INT stats do nothing. I don't need them to be spectacular, but I would like them to be relevant. A number of people use INT/WIS/CHA as dump stats. Even if they're casters...which is funny, because these stats are supposed to be prime requisites! All stats should be useful in my mind, even if they aren't overpowered.
The nice thing about properly implementing INT and WIS is that it will encourage people to create more balanced characters. A full implementation of INT/WIS would entail penalties for low scores (such as save penalties and limitations on spell level). Because dropping INT/WIS too low currently has no real severe penalty, the current game benefits the min-maxer.
I don't really need benefits for a 25 score in everything. I guess my problem is the current WIS and INT stats do nothing. I don't need them to be spectacular, but I would like them to be relevant. A number of people use INT/WIS/CHA as dump stats. Even if they're casters...which is funny, because these stats are supposed to be prime requisites! All stats should be useful in my mind, even if they aren't overpowered.
The nice thing about properly implementing INT and WIS is that it will encourage people to create more balanced characters. A full implementation of INT/WIS would entail penalties for low scores (such as save penalties and limitations on spell level). Because dropping INT/WIS too low currently has no real severe penalty, the current game benefits the min-maxer.
Well there are a few things that would be interesting.
First, infinite rerolls should be a thing of the past. Instead there should be a system akin to Planescape Torment's point buy system, where you can start with average stats, some good stats, or one great stat (i.e. 18/00 Str)
Second, Potions of Genius shouldn't stack.
Third, you should only be able to use one tome per character. (I mean only 1 stat boosted once, as opposed to all 6 boosted as many times as you want)
Fourth, low WIS spell failure should be implemented.
Fifth, vaulted servers without a pause option should be implemented like in NWN (optional server gameplay, not manditory).
That alone would change a lot of things. If a mage has INT as a dump stat, it will be very hard to learn new spells. If a cleric has WIS as a dump stat, it will be difficult to cast spells.
1° - If people want cheese status they're going to cheat it, be through CLUAConsole or Shadow Keeper. People should have the right to raise stat points with luck. Planescape: Torment give a new stat point at each 2 levels (more or less) and you finsh the game with 22+ in at least 4 stats there (and normally with 2 stats at 25), so PS:T character stats creation isn't neither just or reasonable to be applied in BG unless we start to get stat points at each 2 levels to add in our characters.
2° - I don't see why, if you want to control spell limit by inteligence just make a limit with the natural inteligence in the engine (so the red bonus will not be taken in account). But to to this int must give something else in trade.
3° - Don't see why this should happen, tomes only exist in BG and are few (one for each atribute except Wisdom, that has 3 tomes). If people use them all in main char, that's because the game don't aknowledge the bonus for the NPCs when we go to BG2, fix that and the problem will diminish. Give us more BG NPCs in BG2 (Beamdog must renegotiate the assignment or rights for this) and this problem will be totally solved.
4° - I believe this is already implemented in the old game for huge few wisdom levels, minsc either is an exception for this rule or rangers doesn't suffer from low wisdom.
5° - If it's optional i will not complain, as long it doesn't harm in anyway the single game or multi-player game with this option off.
Comments
If it doesn't affect the defensive illusions and only the illusions cast on CHARNAME (or whoever), it sounds like an interesting tweak for limited use. Essentially, blindness and spook (Level 1 spells!) would be off the table against CHARNAME and...well...that's pretty much all the illusions enemies might cast. So yes, I like the spirit of what everyone is saying here, but is it really worth dev time? The only offensive illusion spell I would love to be immune to is never cast because there are no epic level enemy druids to blind me with their beauty. Glitterdust would be nice, but it's enchantment as I recall. What else is there, besides potential new spells that would count as offensive illusions?
So yeah, I would love bonuses from high powered intelligence that are actually useful but I don't see how they could be implemented in such a way as to be useful but not completely change the balance of the game.
As for wisdom, that all just sounds cool. Moderately useless, but cool. Personally, I enjoy the many bonus spells clerics/druids get with exceptional wisdom as it is, so adding more would just be icing to me. An extra iron skin and a few extra nymphs in bgtutu level cap is just plain sexy. That's like 3 extra level 5 spells (Since I always think of the level 4 nymph spells as Mass Cure with benefits). As for the magic bonus, as I recall, magic bonus only applies to certain types of spells...so it would have to be a flat bonus to saves-vs-spells or the devs would have to completely re-work the system in order to only get them to work against the spells they should work against, which sounds like a daunting venture again to me. Is it really worth precious dev time? If people really want it in, the flat bonus to saves-vs-spells sounds easily moddable to me, albeit I haven't worked with specifics of the infinity engine in a while.
/rant
As for the wisdom benefits. As a compromise I could possibly see that coding individual spells to be immune to based on your Wisdom score might be a pain. However the saving throw bonuses should be implemented at the very least (bring on my dwarven Fighter/Cleric with 18 CON/WIS and +9 vs spells
(Spell fail is missing too)
I think it is missing -> Handbook
Ps.: Pls Link if there is a threat.
EDIT:
Bugs;
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/1143/wisdom-bonuses#latest
I don't feel that this feature would be unbalanced, as the relations is:
19 - 1° circle spells
to
25 - 7° circle spells
Hardly someone will achieve more than 20 int points on BG (gnome and only after find the inteligence tome, that is on Baldur's Gate and therefore only accessible after chapter 6), what brings immunity to level 2° spells only, pretty fair and only mirror image and blur would be affected (from the useful spells).
In BG2 you can achieve 22 perma int points if i'm not wrong and use a ion gem to boost more 1 point to achieve 23 points, but in ToB, be immune to level 5 circle spells or less is totaly justified.
I do feel it shouldn't apply to the entire party. It feels like that would cheapen the effect. True, it would be much more useful, but...I don't know. If the effect were to be implemented, I would prefer a method that doesn't make it seem like...well...infravision in all its fail. With that said, I can't imagine how, so whatever. I do feel like it will effect balance, making gnome mages more powerful and backstabbers less so.
IF potions are labeled as spells in BG, i truly doubt they're registered as level 2 spells, and if they are, we just need to raise their spell level on infinite engine, something that doesn't appear to be too hard to be done. Besides, the detection isn't instantly and any enemy too close to you can drink and hit before your inteligence bonus dispel the invisibility.
This feature could stop some cheese tatics as the multiple use of staff of the magi, enemies in BG always backstab when thiefs and invisible (no matter in which position they're from you), enemies would benefit from this implement and that could make the game harder.
Remember that level 2 illusion immunity will be only achieved as a gnome and at the end of BG, i made a research about the inteligence status boost and there's only 1 tome of inteligence, the +1 inteligence point from the machine of lum the mad and the inteligence ion stone, this all sum a total of:
Max 22 int points if you're a gnome (therefore immunity to level 4 illusions spells only).
Max 21 int points if you're not a gnome (therefore immunity to level 3 illusions spells only).
So magics like shadow door and mass invisibility would not even be affected by the implement of this feature.
Ps: gnomes being more powerful would be a nice thing as many people avoid this race for the restrictions of romance (aerie only) and the fact that every gnome MUST be an illusionist if they're mages. The thief problems with mages are the total overpower of stoneskin or immunity to normal/magical weapons/magical weapons +x or lower that the game provide for mages, to solve that add poisons to the game and make those poisons be able to hit the mage no matter if they're immune would be a better form of balance than keep an P&P balanced feature out of the game.
Edit: Ah, sorry. I did not search for abbreviations. What I was specifically mentioning was that wisdom at high levels helping you with spell saves.
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/870/#Comment_870
I just rolled 3 characters via http://www.wizards.com/dnd/dice/dice.htm
10 str
11 dex
11 con
8 int
11 wis
6 cha
Due to these stat rolls, this character cannot be an elf by 2nd ed rules, and can't be a mage. This character will be a dwarven fighter/cleric, gaining +1 con, -1 dex, and -2 cha. I roll the starting health, and this poor dwarf has 3 HP at level 1. Truly a gifted cleric too, with only a 10% spell failure rate...
9 str
12 dex
6 con
12 int
11 wis
11 cha
Due to these stat rolls, this character cannot be a dwarf, elf, gnome, or halfling, but can be a fighter, mage, cleric, or thief. This character I will make into a half-elf mage. A lucky roll, 3 HP at level 1 for a mage. A pretty talented mage too, if I do say so myself, only a 50% FAILURE RATE TO LEARN A SPELL!
9 str
11 dex
14 con
9 int
8 wis
10 cha
This character can be any race, but cannot be a cleric. This character shall be an elven fighter/thief, gaining +1 dex, and -1 con. This character starts with 5 HP at level 1. I could technically make him a dwarven fighter, and he'd have had 15 con, and 7 HP with what I rolled.
-------------------------------
Also consider the effects of aging:
Middle Age: -1 Str/Con, +1 Int/Wis
Old Age: -2 Str/Dex, -1 Con, +1 Wis (-3 Str, -2 Dex/Con, +1 Int, +2 Wis total)
Venerable: -1 Str/Dex/Con, +1 Int/Wis (-4 Str, -3 Dex/Con, +2 Int, +3 Wis total)
At Venerable my half-elf mage will have
5 str
9 dex
3 con
14 int
14 wis
11 cha
and with that level of intelligence, will be able to learn 7th level spells, and will only have a 40% chance to fail to learn a new spell. Also, since a 3 was rolled for starting HP at level 1, the character will have at the very least 2 HP at level 9. That being said, the character likely won't be resurrectable at that point, as the process will remove 1 constitution, which will increase the HP penalty to -2 per level, so unless this character manages to get more than 18 HP, death is permanent. With 19 HP in rolls by level 9, the character will have a 45% chance to survive a raise dead, and will resurrect with 1/1 HP. Exciting isn't it!? ^^
I don't really need benefits for a 25 score in everything. I guess my problem is the current WIS and INT stats do nothing. I don't need them to be spectacular, but I would like them to be relevant. A number of people use INT/WIS/CHA as dump stats. Even if they're casters...which is funny, because these stats are supposed to be prime requisites! All stats should be useful in my mind, even if they aren't overpowered.
The nice thing about properly implementing INT and WIS is that it will encourage people to create more balanced characters. A full implementation of INT/WIS would entail penalties for low scores (such as save penalties and limitations on spell level). Because dropping INT/WIS too low currently has no real severe penalty, the current game benefits the min-maxer.
First, infinite rerolls should be a thing of the past. Instead there should be a system akin to Planescape Torment's point buy system, where you can start with average stats, some good stats, or one great stat (i.e. 18/00 Str)
Second, Potions of Genius shouldn't stack.
Third, you should only be able to use one tome per character. (I mean only 1 stat boosted once, as opposed to all 6 boosted as many times as you want)
Fourth, low WIS spell failure should be implemented.
Fifth, vaulted servers without a pause option should be implemented like in NWN (optional server gameplay, not manditory).
That alone would change a lot of things. If a mage has INT as a dump stat, it will be very hard to learn new spells. If a cleric has WIS as a dump stat, it will be difficult to cast spells.
1° - If people want cheese status they're going to cheat it, be through CLUAConsole or Shadow Keeper. People should have the right to raise stat points with luck. Planescape: Torment give a new stat point at each 2 levels (more or less) and you finsh the game with 22+ in at least 4 stats there (and normally with 2 stats at 25), so PS:T character stats creation isn't neither just or reasonable to be applied in BG unless we start to get stat points at each 2 levels to add in our characters.
2° - I don't see why, if you want to control spell limit by inteligence just make a limit with the natural inteligence in the engine (so the red bonus will not be taken in account). But to to this int must give something else in trade.
3° - Don't see why this should happen, tomes only exist in BG and are few (one for each atribute except Wisdom, that has 3 tomes). If people use them all in main char, that's because the game don't aknowledge the bonus for the NPCs when we go to BG2, fix that and the problem will diminish. Give us more BG NPCs in BG2 (Beamdog must renegotiate the assignment or rights for this) and this problem will be totally solved.
4° - I believe this is already implemented in the old game for huge few wisdom levels, minsc either is an exception for this rule or rangers doesn't suffer from low wisdom.
5° - If it's optional i will not complain, as long it doesn't harm in anyway the single game or multi-player game with this option off.