I never get the call for more Wilderness areas in BG2. I mean, sure, they're fun in BG1 but what you're doing there is saving cows, helping boys out of lighthouses, duelling mad swordsmen and clearings farms of zombies. When you're level 11-12+, these things are far beneath you. The threats for that level don't wander about the grasslands, they hide in tombs and on other planes or in the recesses of the city.
Atkathla is your wilderness map for this game. It wouldn't make sense to have farmers attacked by liches or have dragons frolicking through the hills. They're high level threats and thus, rare. BG2 is already stretching believability with its number of enemies, I don't see the need to add more random ones.
The point of adding wilderness areas has less to do with encounters and more to do with making BG2 feel like the big, open world BG1 was. The encounters simply provide some interesting diversions to keep that initial travel a bit more interesting, and could serve as the setting for some new quests.
It's about making the game more of an open-world, not about providing the player with challenge.
Basically - too inconsistent with general timeline and the previous games, too linear, lame (storywise, not battle wise) main villain, too linear, too many situations where your only option is to butcher everything that moves, the overused Solar-deus-ex-machina... the list goes on. Though, while I am one of those malcontents who complain about it, in the grand scheme of things I do prefer the ToB ending to no ending.
But none of those complaints apply to the ending. Those are problems with the game proper. The ending itself is basically just the post-battle "choice" and the cinematics that follow... which I thought were very well done. Six different endings depending on whether you choose to embrace (or not) deification and alignment, plus an epilogue that reflected the choices you'd made in the game and the people you'd met. It was handled... very well. If you (or anyone else) is going to start complaining about the game's ending, you need to actually discuss, you know, the game's ENDING.
I like the BG 1 new NPCs into 2 and give em an reason why they decided Amn was thier place to be while add more including an evil thief which I prefer assassin.
But none of those complaints apply to the ending. Those are problems with the game proper. The ending itself is basically just the post-battle "choice" and the cinematics that follow... which I thought were very well done. Six different endings depending on whether you choose to embrace (or not) deification and alignment, plus an epilogue that reflected the choices you'd made in the game and the people you'd met. It was handled... very well. If you (or anyone else) is going to start complaining about the game's ending, you need to actually discuss, you know, the game's ENDING.
Oh, I see we've been talking about two different things. I was thinking about ToB as a whole as an ending chapter to the saga. The ending of ToB itself was indeed very well thought out. It was what was between end of SoA and end of ToB that I don't much care for. If I may add one more complaint about it - I didn't appreciate being yanked and ordered about by a pair of lying ... females. (Solar and Mellisan). You either did exactly what they told you (go there and learn a lesson, go there and kill this and that), or... you pretty much didn't have anything else to do. Compare it to SoA, where you could choose the side you wanted to work with, and at what point did you want to ditch the side quests and pursue the main plot. Like I said, it's better to have ToB to tie up the saga than not have a closure at all, but it could be so much more than that.
Generally speaking, everything following the final boss fight of a game is "the end." I think maybe you're looking at ToB the wrong way. The expansion is not an "ending" by itself to Baldur's Gate 2. It's an entirely new game making up the third act of the Bhaalspawn trilogy.
...
Well, to be fair, the more open-ended gameplay structure of BG2 and BG1 worked because both games were set up as "mysteries." In the first game, you're trying to figure out who killed Gorion, what the deal with the Iron Crisis is, why people want to kill you. In the second game, it's all about finding Irenicus and learning more about your heritage.
The narrative structures of the first two games were well suited to give the player free time and free reign to go and do pretty much whatever he or she wanted.
But the third game (Throne of Bhaal) is different. It's not about solving a mystery... it's about a war. With the Bhaalspawn war going on, it makes perfect sense that there's less freedom of movement and fewer opportunities for non-violent conflict resolution.
I think Throne of Bhaal was, at its core, a good story... but that it wasn't executed as well as it could have been. So, yeah, I'm right there with you: it didn't feel right to be "forced" into playing the dupe for Mellisan. Ideally, I think the player should have had the option of either allying/usurping the army of another Bhaalspawn, or forming up his or her own army to take part in the war. ToB's biggest problem, IMHO, was that too much of the game felt like errand-running.
Things I'd like to see in BG2:EE (taking into account existing restrictions):
1. New NPCs. I like most of BG2's characters, but there are certain gaps that could be filled (ie: evil thieves, good clerics, assassins, etc.)
Good clerics ? There's actually 3 clerics in BG2, two of them beeing good. The only "base" class that is missing is single class thieves, due to Yoshimo disappearing. (Really too bad that they did not include a way to recover him, btw... )
Well, for starters i hope the 3 new chars from BG1:EE transfer over and get really fleshed out with some very cool quests with solid perks (like Nalia's quest giving you a castle)
And a bit more options on Nalia's castle as well... kinda felt a bit flat to me, you can ask for more rent but in the end it gives you so little and there's nothing there to do that you just end up using the castle to stash stuff if ever.
The black pits sound cool, while i still haven't played it i would love to see some sort of dungeon with alot of challenges but i would like to bring some items over.
I'm looking forward to BG2EE. Simply updating (like BGEE) will make it very worthwhile to me. Personally, I don't need new characters or new locations (however, others may want these and they would not hurt to have).
A more "open world" would be a "nice to have" feature -- as others noted. The "closed in feeling" of BG2 (vs BG) was its "failure", to me. Nevertheless, I assume its too expensive to develop an open world -- I don't expect one.
I'm looking forward to seeing the new NPCs in BG2EE--I'm really enjoying all of them, even if Rasaad (by virtue of being a low-level monk) does kinda suck at the moment. I think I'd rather see these three developed in greater depth than see more new NPCs.
I'm looking forward to seeing the new NPCs in BG2EE--I'm really enjoying all of them, even if Rasaad (by virtue of being a low-level monk) does kinda suck at the moment. I think I'd rather see these three developed in greater depth than see more new NPCs.
I'm looking forward to seeing the new NPCs in BG2EE--I'm really enjoying all of them, even if Rasaad (by virtue of being a low-level monk) does kinda suck at the moment. I think I'd rather see these three developed in greater depth than see more new NPCs.
Personally id like to see both
It's already been confirmed that Dorn, Rasaad and Neera will be in BG2EE (though probably not at the starting dungeon for plot reasons). And I would be astonished if they didn't add more new NPCs too. I think 2 single class thieves, one good and one evil, for a start.
Best of all would be if they listened to all the fans and let us have our say and vote on stuff. Use the fans - we have a gazillion good ideas!!! That's why BG2 was so successful - the developers really listened to the fans!
On a side note - they removed the wilderness areas in BG2 because that was one of the biggest complaints in BG1 (huge areas with very little action).
@Mornmagor do you ever not complain about the BG2 animations? :P
Anyway, what I personally would like to see in BG2:EE: - a new high-resolution, polished, modern UI with important functional improvements - inclusion/implementation of all cut content as described by David Gaider - the Balthis Estate quest, the Minsc quest, etc. - inclusion and overhaul of Ascension and improved boss battles - addition of a few new epic quests in the line of existing BG2 areas - continuation of the new BG:EE characters storylines
...On a side note - they removed the wilderness areas in BG2 because that was one of the biggest complaints in BG1 (huge areas with very little action).
I liked exactly that -- less action per minute for a time. That contrasted with intense action in other sections of the game. It's the CONTRASTS that add to any game (or exposition).
Constant action, action, action gets boring (to me) faster than slow and fast sections intermixed.
As one goes through a slow section, the anticipation builds -- "will I run into an unexpected super foe" -- and, at times, it happens -- lulled into complacency and caught off guard, I either get killed or nearly so.
Still, its personal preference. No right or wrong.
Hmm... And a bit more options on Nalia's castle as well... kinda felt a bit flat to me, you can ask for more rent but in the end it gives you so little and there's nothing there to do that you just end up using the castle to stash stuff if ever.
Well there were those small quests after you got the castle to oversee the land... there wasn't much to them, though. Were there ever any mods to expand on that? Ideally I think all of the strongholds should have post-quest content at least to the level of the Keep. I really hated getting that Planar Sphere and then not being able to do a damned thing with it.
I mean, at least give me a spell to teleport there instead of making me hoof it through the slums to reach a vehicle capable of traversing the multiverse.
I've always preferred BG1 so unfortunately, this is kind of it for me. BG1 got the shaft in terms of modding (way more mods for BG2) and it's probably going to get shafted again by being tackled first by Overhaul (i.e. all the focus going merely onto redoing the engine so less content added).
Well, I'm looking forward to BG 2:EE -- I've always preferred the 'denser' BG2 approach over the 'spread the content over half the planet and make the player look' approach of BG1.
I'm not sure of the legality or ease of doing this, but I'd love to see some of the great BG2 mods rolled into the release of BG2EE. To my shame I never got around to playing Ascension, but some of the BG2 NPC mods were quite excellent. I particularly enjoyed the Saerelith mod, despite the somewhat awkward romance; it added a new means to get to Spellhold, several challenging encounters, cool items, and a visit to one of my favorite settings ever. Implementing it and others would make BG2EE really stand out from the original.
I'm pretty sure they're still contractually prevented from making any changes whatsoever in original content.
I'm looking forward to BG2:EE so I can get the new interface and widescreen scale-up, the color-coded circles, and the portrait character-action icons. That's all I need to love it. I like the enhanced features so much, I will not be playing any version of SoA/ToB in the future that is not Overhaul's.
It will also be nice to eventually have a mod utility that makes it easy to install and un-install mods, and updated mods, especially and hopefully, modded npc's.
BTW, did the updated Weidu get released yet? I heard it was coming out today (Tuesday, 12/4/2012)
I'm pretty sure they're still contractually prevented from making any changes whatsoever in original content.
Is that a response to me? I don't see why implementing BG2 mods into the final product would count as changing original content any more than the implementation of the current new crop of NPCs is. Perhaps I'm missing something.
Anyway, just thought of another thing I'd like to see: A fully-malleable action bar, WoW-style. I'd love to have half a spellbook hotkeyed on my mage, for example. Why limit us to just three spell slots?
To me BG2 is the perfect game. Beamdog has their work cut out for them but I am very much looking forward to it. New modules, new races/subraces, classes, kits, NPCs, items, all of these are things I would like to see. When were psionic spell casters added to d&d? That might be something neat to see. I would like to see a wider variety of spells. I would also like to see spells for specific classes/alignments, bard spells, paladin spells, ranger spells. A module dealing with oriental adventures might be cool too. They could basically take any d&d supplementary book and make that into a module. Maybe something dealing with dragons or undead. An evil adventure might be fun, like you are trying to take control of a region or build your evil army or sacrifice virgins to your dark god, something like that. I wonder how much work it would take to make some sort of module building tool like NWN had. I would love to play fan made stories. These are just a few things I'm hoping for in BG2EE, but even if they just fix bugs and transfer over Rasaad, Neera, and Dorn to continue their stories it will still be something worth buying in my eyes.
Comments
It's about making the game more of an open-world, not about providing the player with challenge. But none of those complaints apply to the ending. Those are problems with the game proper. The ending itself is basically just the post-battle "choice" and the cinematics that follow... which I thought were very well done. Six different endings depending on whether you choose to embrace (or not) deification and alignment, plus an epilogue that reflected the choices you'd made in the game and the people you'd met. It was handled... very well. If you (or anyone else) is going to start complaining about the game's ending, you need to actually discuss, you know, the game's ENDING.
Like I said, it's better to have ToB to tie up the saga than not have a closure at all, but it could be so much more than that.
...
Well, to be fair, the more open-ended gameplay structure of BG2 and BG1 worked because both games were set up as "mysteries." In the first game, you're trying to figure out who killed Gorion, what the deal with the Iron Crisis is, why people want to kill you. In the second game, it's all about finding Irenicus and learning more about your heritage.
The narrative structures of the first two games were well suited to give the player free time and free reign to go and do pretty much whatever he or she wanted.
But the third game (Throne of Bhaal) is different. It's not about solving a mystery... it's about a war. With the Bhaalspawn war going on, it makes perfect sense that there's less freedom of movement and fewer opportunities for non-violent conflict resolution.
I think Throne of Bhaal was, at its core, a good story... but that it wasn't executed as well as it could have been. So, yeah, I'm right there with you: it didn't feel right to be "forced" into playing the dupe for Mellisan. Ideally, I think the player should have had the option of either allying/usurping the army of another Bhaalspawn, or forming up his or her own army to take part in the war. ToB's biggest problem, IMHO, was that too much of the game felt like errand-running.
The only "base" class that is missing is single class thieves, due to Yoshimo disappearing. (Really too bad that they did not include a way to recover him, btw... )
Well, for starters i hope the 3 new chars from BG1:EE transfer over and get really fleshed out with some very cool quests with solid perks (like Nalia's quest giving you a castle)
And a bit more options on Nalia's castle as well... kinda felt a bit flat to me, you can ask for more rent but in the end it gives you so little and there's nothing there to do that you just end up using the castle to stash stuff if ever.
The black pits sound cool, while i still haven't played it i would love to see some sort of dungeon with alot of challenges but i would like to bring some items over.
A more "open world" would be a "nice to have" feature -- as others noted. The "closed in feeling" of BG2 (vs BG) was its "failure", to me. Nevertheless, I assume its too expensive to develop an open world -- I don't expect one.
It's already been confirmed that Dorn, Rasaad and Neera will be in BG2EE (though probably not at the starting dungeon for plot reasons). And I would be astonished if they didn't add more new NPCs too. I think 2 single class thieves, one good and one evil, for a start.
On a side note - they removed the wilderness areas in BG2 because that was one of the biggest complaints in BG1 (huge areas with very little action).
Yeah fat chance of that but i can't stand looking at them >_>
Give me a time machine and Thor's Hammer, and i will fix the problem that resulted in BG2 style sprites being implemented o_O
Anyway, what I personally would like to see in BG2:EE:
- a new high-resolution, polished, modern UI with important functional improvements
- inclusion/implementation of all cut content as described by David Gaider - the Balthis Estate quest, the Minsc quest, etc.
- inclusion and overhaul of Ascension and improved boss battles
- addition of a few new epic quests in the line of existing BG2 areas
- continuation of the new BG:EE characters storylines
Constant action, action, action gets boring (to me) faster than slow and fast sections intermixed.
As one goes through a slow section, the anticipation builds -- "will I run into an unexpected super foe" -- and, at times, it happens -- lulled into complacency and caught off guard, I either get killed or nearly so.
Still, its personal preference. No right or wrong.
I mean, at least give me a spell to teleport there instead of making me hoof it through the slums to reach a vehicle capable of traversing the multiverse.
I'm looking forward to BG2:EE so I can get the new interface and widescreen scale-up, the color-coded circles, and the portrait character-action icons. That's all I need to love it. I like the enhanced features so much, I will not be playing any version of SoA/ToB in the future that is not Overhaul's.
It will also be nice to eventually have a mod utility that makes it easy to install and un-install mods, and updated mods, especially and hopefully, modded npc's.
BTW, did the updated Weidu get released yet? I heard it was coming out today (Tuesday, 12/4/2012)
Anyway, just thought of another thing I'd like to see: A fully-malleable action bar, WoW-style. I'd love to have half a spellbook hotkeyed on my mage, for example. Why limit us to just three spell slots?