Well ok then Aosaw... then I guess the game will still pretend that my evil character did all those evil and terrible things in BG1 with the standard good party... that' a shame. I don't really care either if they don't get the same voiceovers or any at all for that matter. After awhile I just click through when I'm done reading their dialogue anyway as I"M SURE most people do too.
You know I even hated that idea when I first played the game 13 year ago too, guess that plot hole will be left unfilled.
Would it be a sufficient compromise if the three new characters were added to the dungeon? That way, there would at least be one evil character for use, and nothing needs to be rewritten or negotiated for with a contract.
That would be fine too, but I do feel that more choice for players is usually a good thing, so I still advocate having a few more companion options in the dungeon.
Resurrection and raise dead - they exist and they are not exclusive to the PC's party. If you can drag your party member's carcass to the nearest temple and have them rezzed, then so can any random kind-hearted stranger who happened to see you murdering them (or leaving them for dead after a hard battle). And remember that both Jaheira (with Khalid) and Dynaheir (with Minsc) have their own reasons for following you and your 'career' closely - Jaheira as a harper and Gorion's friend, Dynaheir because she was specifically sent to Fearun to investigate this whole 'Children of Bhaal' business. So even if you didn't have them in your party, it's possible they were following you on their own, and either tried to intervene or got caught in crossfire when Irenicus attacked you. That leaves only their friendly reactions to you as potentially inconsistent. In case of Minsc, he's not quite right in the head in the first place, and perhaps he got further confused after the hardships of captivity. As for Jaheira... ok, kind of a long shot here, but let's suppose that she's not your friend, but she wants to stay close to keep an eye on you. She must have heard your initial dialog with Imoen, so she knows you're both having memory problems. When you ask her who the hell she is, she's using it to shamelessly lie about your shared past. There. Justification completed. About why are your evil buddies not there with you - like other's said, they have their own agendas, and evil characters are much less likely to stick with you when there's no profit in it for them than good characters are.
If you so blindly choose to have a hissy fit about the whole thing instead of using your imagination (and you know, D&D and imagination go together like a duck and water) to justify the situation like Syntia did, that's your problem.
Ok Elof, sorry I offended you with the whole pointing out plot holes thing... I can tell some people are ridiculously over-sensitive when it comes to their hobbies... geez
The biggest (really, the only) argument against this is that at the start of BG2, your party has been imprisoned and tortured by Irenicus. Every member of your starting party has experienced some level of severe personal trauma, whether it's the death of a loved one or being the subject of strange and painful experiments.
So not only would you have to rewrite dialogue and move those characters elsewhere, but you'd also have to completely re-envision their personalities based on whether they were or were not imprisoned with you. Edwin, tortured by Irenicus? That's a totally different Red Wizard. (I picture that version of him being a complete badass, but that's beside the point.)
And those characters that were previously with you by default and now aren't? Jaheira stops being a romanceable option because her husband's still around being cowardly, and literally every line of her dialogue has some reference to how she's grieving the death of Khalid at the hands of Irenicus.
This isn't a minor tweak; it's a complete rewrite of every character in the game.
The most I could see them doing is adding an "interlude" that somehow explains why you've been captured with these people if they weren't already in your party. But changing the starting line-up isn't an option, because it changes the game on a fundamental level.
You know, I know want a mod making Edwin appear in Irenicus' dungeon and him being a total badass. Irenicus did not know who he was f***ing with!
Ugh, I wish that at least with evil-aligned characters, the people in the starting dungeon would be different. Maybe Imoen and Jaheira are still there, but instead of Minsc there should be someone else. Oh well. -_-
You know, I spent the last 9 minutes typing up a really long explanation for what I would like to see for an evil party, and how maybe Dorn, Rasaad, and/or Neera could be the people in the cells with you (which I still like the idea of, and you could get the voice/actors.) Then I saw this:
From my perspective, the only thing that needs to be done is a prologue that explains what happened, if your party was different at the end of BG1.
That, and maybe some dialogue options for the "canon" party members to the tune of "Didn't I kill you?"
I agree with this completely, because this isn't a new concept (you can tell Xzar that you remember him dying, if you killed Drizzt previously you can both remember). It makes it humorous, and it is fairly simple to do. However, I would also not mind the inclusion of the newer NPCs in the dungeon, based on who was in your party at the end of BG:EE.
The biggest (really, the only) argument against this is that at the start of BG2, your party has been imprisoned and tortured by Irenicus. Every member of your starting party has experienced some level of severe personal trauma, whether it's the death of a loved one or being the subject of strange and painful experiments.
So not only would you have to rewrite dialogue and move those characters elsewhere, but you'd also have to completely re-envision their personalities based on whether they were or were not imprisoned with you. Edwin, tortured by Irenicus? That's a totally different Red Wizard. (I picture that version of him being a complete badass, but that's beside the point.)
And those characters that were previously with you by default and now aren't? Jaheira stops being a romanceable option because her husband's still around being cowardly, and literally every line of her dialogue has some reference to how she's grieving the death of Khalid at the hands of Irenicus.
This isn't a minor tweak; it's a complete rewrite of every character in the game.
The most I could see them doing is adding an "interlude" that somehow explains why you've been captured with these people if they weren't already in your party. But changing the starting line-up isn't an option, because it changes the game on a fundamental level.
You know, I know want a mod making Edwin appear in Irenicus' dungeon and him being a total badass. Irenicus did not know who he was f***ing with!
Ok Elof, sorry I offended you with the whole pointing out plot holes thing... I can tell some people are ridiculously over-sensitive when it comes to their hobbies... geez
You should have taken a good look at yourself before posting that comment.
The biggest (really, the only) argument against this is that at the start of BG2, your party has been imprisoned and tortured by Irenicus. Every member of your starting party has experienced some level of severe personal trauma, whether it's the death of a loved one or being the subject of strange and painful experiments.
So not only would you have to rewrite dialogue and move those characters elsewhere, but you'd also have to completely re-envision their personalities based on whether they were or were not imprisoned with you. Edwin, tortured by Irenicus? That's a totally different Red Wizard. (I picture that version of him being a complete badass, but that's beside the point.)
And those characters that were previously with you by default and now aren't? Jaheira stops being a romanceable option because her husband's still around being cowardly, and literally every line of her dialogue has some reference to how she's grieving the death of Khalid at the hands of Irenicus.
This isn't a minor tweak; it's a complete rewrite of every character in the game.
The most I could see them doing is adding an "interlude" that somehow explains why you've been captured with these people if they weren't already in your party. But changing the starting line-up isn't an option, because it changes the game on a fundamental level.
You know, I know want a mod making Edwin appear in Irenicus' dungeon and him being a total badass. Irenicus did not know who he was f***ing with!
*sigh*...
Okay, okay, I'll start writing one...
Edwin manages to kill Irenicus and the main story never progresses >:]
I'm so sorry I don't like plot holes in the games I play. At least I never blindly defend something which is was obviously cut corner due to lazy writing.
Ok Elof, sorry I offended you with the whole pointing out plot holes thing... I can tell some people are ridiculously over-sensitive when it comes to their hobbies... geez
You should have taken a good look at yourself before posting that comment.
The biggest (really, the only) argument against this is that at the start of BG2, your party has been imprisoned and tortured by Irenicus. Every member of your starting party has experienced some level of severe personal trauma, whether it's the death of a loved one or being the subject of strange and painful experiments.
So not only would you have to rewrite dialogue and move those characters elsewhere, but you'd also have to completely re-envision their personalities based on whether they were or were not imprisoned with you. Edwin, tortured by Irenicus? That's a totally different Red Wizard. (I picture that version of him being a complete badass, but that's beside the point.)
And those characters that were previously with you by default and now aren't? Jaheira stops being a romanceable option because her husband's still around being cowardly, and literally every line of her dialogue has some reference to how she's grieving the death of Khalid at the hands of Irenicus.
This isn't a minor tweak; it's a complete rewrite of every character in the game.
The most I could see them doing is adding an "interlude" that somehow explains why you've been captured with these people if they weren't already in your party. But changing the starting line-up isn't an option, because it changes the game on a fundamental level.
You know, I know want a mod making Edwin appear in Irenicus' dungeon and him being a total badass. Irenicus did not know who he was f***ing with!
*sigh*...
Okay, okay, I'll start writing one...
Edwin manages to kill Irenicus and the main story never progresses >:]
Yes, and then your character proceeds through lots of sidequesting, but has no need to
go to Spellhold, enter the Underdark, or protect Suldanessellar, and therefore you get much less loot and experience, and are much more unprepared for the Bhaalspawn crisis in ToB. Oh wait, with an Edwin powerful enough to defeat Irenicus, I suppose you could just go do Watcher's keep at level 8...
I'm fairly certain it'd be possible to do a simple second party for evil characters, they'd only have to write 3 new characters in, kind of like they did with this EE, though I guess they still have to write those 3 into the EE sequel as well. On the other hand the engine work should be pretty much done no? More time for content!
To prove that it wouldn't require them to rewrite any existing BG2 characters, a list of BG1 characters that don't appear in BG2 at all! Here ya go: Alora, Branwen, Eldoth, Kagain, Kivan, Sharteel, Skie, Xan, Yeslick(with the exceptions that Branwen and Xan appear in the tutorial).
Right there we have Kagain and Shar-Teel in evilsquad, and even ones you'd like use! Dorn might be a possibility to depending on how they wanted to write him into BG2. The only x-factor is how to handle Imoen. Honestly, since Imoen isn't supposed to leave on low rep(and doesn't in the original), I tend to use her even in my evil parties for plot reasons, so I think most of us would understand if Imoen remained as was.
So now we're down to writing two BG1 characters who don't even appear in BG2 currently, possibly only one if you use Dorn for this purpose. Just check the rep of the party on import: less than 10? Evil party. More than 10? Canon party. Exactly 10? Check the PCs alignment, for evil, if evil that party, if non-evil, canon party.
This might even be unobtrusive enough to work in their contract, depending on the exact phrasing.
I'm fairly certain it'd be possible to do a simple second party for evil characters, they'd only have to write 3 new characters in, kind of like they did with this EE, though I guess they still have to write those 3 into the EE sequel as well. On the other hand the engine work should be pretty much done no? More time for content!
To prove that it wouldn't require them to rewrite any existing BG2 characters, a list of BG1 characters that don't appear in BG2 at all! Here ya go: Alora, Branwen, Eldoth, Kagain, Kivan, Sharteel, Skie, Xan, Yeslick(with the exceptions that Branwen and Xan appear in the tutorial).
Right there we have Kagain and Shar-Teel in evilsquad, and even ones you'd like use! Dorn might be a possibility to depending on how they wanted to write him into BG2. The only x-factor is how to handle Imoen. Honestly, since Imoen isn't supposed to leave on low rep(and doesn't in the original), I tend to use her even in my evil parties for plot reasons, so I think most of us would understand if Imoen remained as was.
So now we're down to writing two BG1 characters who don't even appear in BG2 currently, possibly only one if you use Dorn for this purpose. Just check the rep of the party on import: less than 10? Evil party. More than 10? Canon party. Exactly 10? Check the PCs alignment, for evil, if evil that party, if non-evil, canon party.
This might even be unobtrusive enough to work in their contract, depending on the exact phrasing.
Am I insane?
Certainly not insane, but getting the voice actors would be a hassle. I have NO IDEA about the coding of that either, it could be complicated. I love the idea of Dorn though if your rep is bad and Rasaad showing up if your Rep is good. And throw in Neera regardless of your alignment!
They're important for consistency. If one player's game has a character being fully voiced, then other players should also see that same treatment. Especially if it's a "canon" character (whether that's Jaheira and Minsc, or Edwin and Viconia). It's part of what separates a great mod from a professional piece of content.
I noticed that some of the tiny banters in BG:EE (such as Khalid greeting a fellow Callishite like Rasaad, and Edwin's reaction to Neera) would definitely feel stronger with the voice-overs (obviously, not going to happen). Of the mod NPCs, I greatly prefer the ones with voice-overs to those without.
I think KryptBeowulf has a very valid point with the plotholes. Characters that died in bg1 should stay dead in bg2. I realise that you can't just write Imoen out of the game but maybe make an update for BG:EE where she is litterally unable to die sort of like in Irenicus dungeon or maybe make some story as to why she would be alive even though she had died in BG1.
And I realise that it might not happen because of contract restrictions and honestly I don't care too strongly about this so I would buy the game even if this plothole wasn't fixed.
Don't get me wrong, I'll buy it too, I just can't accept when people say its too complicated to fix...
And that contract thing where they can't change it at all is total bs... I mean do these NPCs even appear anywhere else in the Forgotten Realms universe? Is WotC even using them at all anywhere? If not, what the hell does it matter if their stories vary from playthrough to playthrough?
Quite frankly, I don't want any changes to the old NPC's, if it means messing with the storyline. It would ruin it for me. Completely. No joke. It wouldn't be Baldur's Gate II anymore. Besides, the story, as it is, can easily accomodate any choices the player made in the first game, without plotholes, except completely soloing it from beginning to end. The only alternative choice i see (if one is to have a BGI and BGII not directly contadicting each other) is to cut any ties, and have all NPC's from the first part disappear, or disregard any personal history and treat them as "pets" of the main character. I understand that for a role player keeping the party together is a good thing, but in this case it would pretty much turn it into a "not-party".
It is also pointless to import them if that means that they will still be the same level and have the same items when you meet them in the originally designated times and places. They would be too low level. If they are not, then why do they have the same items, and what have they (not) being doing while they are leveling up, and why they were not looking for you etc, and we are back in the plot argument.
Comments
You know I even hated that idea when I first played the game 13 year ago too, guess that plot hole will be left unfilled.
That, and maybe some dialogue options for the "canon" party members to the tune of "Didn't I kill you?"
Exactly what I would expect from an "Enhanced Edition"
I agree with this completely, because this isn't a new concept (you can tell Xzar that you remember him dying, if you killed Drizzt previously you can both remember). It makes it humorous, and it is fairly simple to do. However, I would also not mind the inclusion of the newer NPCs in the dungeon, based on who was in your party at the end of BG:EE.
Okay, okay, I'll start writing one...
Gah, your reasoning is perfect! But what do you think of adding the noobie NPCs into the dungeon?
Edwin manages to kill Irenicus and the main story never progresses >:]
To prove that it wouldn't require them to rewrite any existing BG2 characters, a list of BG1 characters that don't appear in BG2 at all! Here ya go: Alora, Branwen, Eldoth, Kagain, Kivan, Sharteel, Skie, Xan, Yeslick(with the exceptions that Branwen and Xan appear in the tutorial).
Right there we have Kagain and Shar-Teel in evilsquad, and even ones you'd like use! Dorn might be a possibility to depending on how they wanted to write him into BG2. The only x-factor is how to handle Imoen. Honestly, since Imoen isn't supposed to leave on low rep(and doesn't in the original), I tend to use her even in my evil parties for plot reasons, so I think most of us would understand if Imoen remained as was.
So now we're down to writing two BG1 characters who don't even appear in BG2 currently, possibly only one if you use Dorn for this purpose. Just check the rep of the party on import: less than 10? Evil party. More than 10? Canon party. Exactly 10? Check the PCs alignment, for evil, if evil that party, if non-evil, canon party.
This might even be unobtrusive enough to work in their contract, depending on the exact phrasing.
Am I insane?
Characters that died in bg1 should stay dead in bg2. I realise that you can't just write Imoen out of the game but maybe make an update for BG:EE where she is litterally unable to die sort of like in Irenicus dungeon or maybe make some story as to why she would be alive even though she had died in BG1.
And I realise that it might not happen because of contract restrictions and honestly I don't care too strongly about this so I would buy the game even if this plothole wasn't fixed.
And that contract thing where they can't change it at all is total bs... I mean do these NPCs even appear anywhere else in the Forgotten Realms universe? Is WotC even using them at all anywhere? If not, what the hell does it matter if their stories vary from playthrough to playthrough?
Gripe to the property owners, and not the game developers.
It is also pointless to import them if that means that they will still be the same level and have the same items when you meet them in the originally designated times and places. They would be too low level. If they are not, then why do they have the same items, and what have they (not) being doing while they are leveling up, and why they were not looking for you etc, and we are back in the plot argument.