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Pathfinder : Kingmaker

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  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,176
    I don't know why people complain so much about difficulty ( https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561197966021471/recommended/640820/ )

    An screenshot that he posted



    Yes, some of his critiques are valide, like bugs, but i don't understand why so much complain about difficulty in a game where anyone can change difficulty at roll. The game trows a lot of good items, good scrolls, etc to you, allow you to reload and change the difficulty on the fly. I never got forced to do power leveling on this game...

    I think that monsters should have the same PnP stats and the developers should different monsters if they wanna increase the difficulty but i disagree that the DM should't be able to change monster stats. For example, if i see that the players are having a easier time, i will give +AC bonus(better armor) to some enemies. Also, i think that dragons in particular needs an improvement.

    I think that for example, an ancient dragon, he shouldn't cast the same spell that an novice caster with a scroll can cast. He should know every his elemental based spell and and every spell of the same elemental that he casts should be automatically maximized and empowered. Also,i will give some conjuration spells, for example an draco lich summoning undead makes sense IMO... if players managed to go from lv 1 to 20 in few years(game time), why an ancient dragon who lived for a millennium should't be able to do epic stuff? I honestly think that ancient dragons should require an pretty strong party, decent strategy, hiring some tough mercenaries, planning, escape routes if they fail on killing the enemy etc. Only convince NPCs to join you should not be easy. An ancient dragon should't more one enemy to be defeated. Should be a memorable enemy.

    Same if all party is struggling, i will trow a "plot armor", "plot npc", etc to save our campaign, some people doesn't like it and some like but IMHO this is acceptable. Or will allow everyone to create an char on the same lv.

    This remembers me of this video


    Anyway, i wanna play this game a lot but i know that my second playtrough will be bugged like the first on Pitax. I will wait until the game is fully functional.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    @SorcererV1ct0r It depends. With a steady curve, its pretty easy to improve alongside it, even if the start of the game is more difficult than usual. The game gives time to adapt. Random Difficulty SPIKES on the other hand, are bad game design. You should never be cruising along with having to put in much effort, only to suddenly hit a brick wall, only for the game to suddenly get easier again. The former is rewarding, the latter is frustrating.
  • bleusteelbleusteel Member Posts: 523
    edited October 2018
    ThacoBell said:

    @SorcererV1ct0r It depends. With a steady curve, its pretty easy to improve alongside it, even if the start of the game is more difficult than usual. The game gives time to adapt. Random Difficulty SPIKES on the other hand, are bad game design. You should never be cruising along with having to put in much effort, only to suddenly hit a brick wall, only for the game to suddenly get easier again. The former is rewarding, the latter is frustrating.

    It sounds a little like you’re describing boss/gatekeeper encounters which have been standard issue for decades. Durlag’s has an encounter like this at the very beginning to make sure your party is minimally capable of proceeding.

    I do know what you mean though. First few playthroughs are always rough in an open world game until you can meta your way through it with your eyes closed.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    @bleusteel Again, it depends. Bosses should be tougher than normal enemies, and optional stuff can vary as well, but there are indicators of the difficulty here. Bosses are obvious, your Durlags example is two "Battle Horrors" with flaming swords, while the rest of the encounters in surrounding areas are kobolds, hobgoblins and gibberlings. There are cues.

    Something I've been hearing about P:KM, is that random enemies might suddenly stomp you in with no warning.
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,176
    ThacoBell said:

    @bleusteel Again, it depends. Bosses should be tougher than normal enemies, and optional stuff can vary as well, but there are indicators of the difficulty here. Bosses are obvious, your Durlags example is two "Battle Horrors" with flaming swords, while the rest of the encounters in surrounding areas are kobolds, hobgoblins and gibberlings. There are cues.

    Something I've been hearing about P:KM, is that random enemies might suddenly stomp you in with no warning.

    Makes sense that an flamming sword is a rare weapon and that get "kobolds" to work for someone strong is not hard. D&D, Pathfinder and other systems aims to create an believable fantasy world, not a generic "press A for awesome" insta gratification game. That is why dungeon layouts are that way. Everything makes sense on P:K.

    I was playing Eye of the Beholder, a PnP conversion module (
    https://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn1/module/eye-beholder ) and there are difficulty spikes on certain areas. Most cRPG have difficulty spikes with a difference. I can't change difficulty on the fly and easily beat someone on M&M VII for example, i need to find a strategy. I can't change the difficulty. Some quests like Archmage promotion was pretty hard for me the first time that i did but that is how the game is.

    Modern cRPG allow difficulty levels for everyone. Only cuz you can't defeat an cyclops undead army animated by a powerful lich without thinking on a strategy or reading the rules, and don't wanna change the difficulty, doesn't means that the game have "balancing problems"... The game gives almost for free items who allow you to have insane amount of stats, trow a lot of money, scrolls, potions. Cyclops should be tough and cyclops on steroids by necrotic magic should be tougher

    Here is i fighting two impossible according to CR dragons on NWN1, with strategy. As you can see, even with greater spell penetration, i got problems penetrating his SR.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZa9MDbH4Zk
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    The same issue was being discussed reciently with regard to the PnP game: players forget that they can run away. So yes, you can encounter a large fire elemental when you are level 2 and have no magic weapons, but its easy to run away or avoid it.

    Baldur's Gate was actually worse, with it ambushes of a dozen bandit archers when you have two first level characters, and the vampiric wolves near Beragost (that could run faster than the party).
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,176
    Fardragon said:

    The same issue was being discussed reciently with regard to the PnP game: players forget that they can run away. So yes, you can encounter a large fire elemental when you are level 2 and have no magic weapons, but its easy to run away or avoid it.

    Baldur's Gate was actually worse, with it ambushes of a dozen bandit archers when you have two first level characters, and the vampiric wolves near Beragost (that could run faster than the party).

    Well said. On M&M VII(first rpg of my life) there are a Dragon in a cave on the Emerald Island(starting place) and you need to pick an item, you don't fight him. Use the fire resist "altar", enter, run, pick the item and run to the exit. Even a child can understand this...

    Unfortunately people are too used to "press A for awesome" games like Skyrim where you can kill an dragon at lv 1... What is the next? People who play FPS complaining because they can't pierce a Panzer 3's armor with a .22 LR? And that they need a 14.5x114mm to be able to pierce the enemy armor? Ironically, i saw people complaining about skeletons with high DR against slashing weapons...
  • DorcusDorcus Member Posts: 270
    Running away from fights seemed pretty impossible to me when I played. I'd pretty much stumble into a hornet's nest (or wererat's nest, as it were) and they'd just stay in hot pursuit until I died from their ranged attacks and the fact that most my party had 20 foot walk speed vs their 30 or more. I had all sorts of savescum trouble just simply trying to kite the giant spitting centipedes into a corridor in the mite dungeon. I wish there was a disengage tactic, because once you've got aggro from a monster, they don't seem to want to give up.
  • DrHappyAngryDrHappyAngry Member Posts: 1,577
    Ya, Baldur's gate had crazy difficulty spikes. I still can get my ass handed to me in the Iron Throne fight if things go wrong.

    Also, I totally got eaten the first time I fought a dragon in Skyrim.

    Most of the areas in Kingmaker are gated with a tough fight. However there are some that you can bypass with a persuasion check, that might get you in over your head, for instance

    At the troll lair, there's a big troll at the entrance, that's meant to be more powerful that most of the trolls you've fought. It's possible to skip fighting that troll and have him take you into the keep. At that point you're in the keep, and might not be able to fight your way back out.

    I do dig that option, though. If you're underprovisioned, it's your own fault. Reload and come back when you can deal with it.
    Candlemere had a pretty decent gate.

    You can go there way earlier than before any quests take you there, but definitely won't be able to handle it if you go as soon as the area opens up. You run into just one Ancient Wisp along the path in. The first time I went there, I barely survived, so I left and came back later. When I returned at higher level, I had a bunch of Protection from energy, Communal spells memorized.


    All that said, I think people have started to expect difficulty scaling from games like skyrim, where enemies are set to your level. I for one appreciate that the game has things that are more powerful than you are, and punishes you for biting off more than you can chew. As @SorcererV1ct0r said, all the difficulty options are tweakable, so you can tune the game to how you want it, and normal is not recommended for people with no CRPG experience. Maybe defaulting to easy mode would improve the reviews? They could pop up a message saying normal is for veteran CRPG players the first time the player changes the difficulty.
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,176
    edited October 2018
    Dorcus said:

    Running away from fights seemed pretty impossible to me when I played. I'd pretty much stumble into a hornet's nest (or wererat's nest, as it were) and they'd just stay in hot pursuit until I died from their ranged attacks and the fact that most my party had 20 foot walk speed vs their 30 or more. I had all sorts of savescum trouble just simply trying to kite the giant spitting centipedes into a corridor in the mite dungeon. I wish there was a disengage tactic, because once you've got aggro from a monster, they don't seem to want to give up.

    There are spells, scrolls and potions that can help you in that situation. Did you tried to use an spell like Haste? Or Expeditious Retreat?

    Ya, Baldur's gate had crazy difficulty spikes. I still can get my ass handed to me in the Iron Throne fight if things go wrong.

    Also, I totally got eaten the first time I fought a dragon in Skyrim.

    Most of the areas in Kingmaker are gated with a tough fight. However there are some that you can bypass with a persuasion check, that might get you in over your head, for instance


    At the troll lair, there's a big troll at the entrance, that's meant to be more powerful that most of the trolls you've fought. It's possible to skip fighting that troll and have him take you into the keep. At that point you're in the keep, and might not be able to fight your way back out.

    I do dig that option, though. If you're underprovisioned, it's your own fault. Reload and come back when you can deal with it.
    Candlemere had a pretty decent gate.

    You can go there way earlier than before any quests take you there, but definitely won't be able to handle it if you go as soon as the area opens up. You run into just one Ancient Wisp along the path in. The first time I went there, I barely survived, so I left and came back later. When I returned at higher level, I had a bunch of Protection from energy, Communal spells memorized.


    All that said, I think people have started to expect difficulty scaling from games like skyrim, where enemies are set to your level. I for one appreciate that the game has things that are more powerful than you are, and punishes you for biting off more than you can chew. As @SorcererV1ct0r said, all the difficulty options are tweakable, so you can tune the game to how you want it, and normal is not recommended for people with no CRPG experience. Maybe defaulting to easy mode would improve the reviews? They could pop up a message saying normal is for veteran CRPG players the first time the player changes the difficulty.
    My problem in some parts is when you are surrounded by all sides, since i an playing with 3 or 4 members on the party. Nothing that a few Animate Dead can't solve, but the game allow you to have pretty strong party members, i don't have any problems... Ekun eqquiped with Devourer of Metal + haste + enlarge person become able to deal around 80 damage per round. Not mention that his animal companion is a good "tanker".

    People underestimate some spells. Resist energy for example can be the difference of easily winning against an electric damaging enemy in a particular island or be dead in 2rounds. An single animate dead, even if they don't deal massive amount of damage, can soak a lot of damage and help with ""teamplay/flanking"" feats. Haste can gives another attack in some cases, this means a 50% increase or even double of damage/round.

    I an playing with an small party and having no problems on a "custom" difficulty, a little hard than normal...

    -----------------------

    In some aspects, the game is easier in favor of player in relation to PnP. An example? Undead bloodline sorcerer ( source of rules : https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/undead-bloodline/ )

    Death’s Gift (Su): At 3rd level, you gain resist cold 5 and DR 5/— against nonlethal damage. At 9th level, your resistance to cold increases to 10 and your DR increases to 10/— against nonlethal damage.

    On the game, Death's Gift gives DR to any non magical weapon,DR 5/1 is much more powerful than 5 DR against non lethal damage and it can help a lot on earlier game, where you don't own any powerful spell... Other example

    Incorporeal Form (Sp): At 15th level, you can become incorporeal for 1 round per sorcerer level. While in this form, you gain the incorporeal subtype. You only take half damage from corporeal sources as long as they are magic (you take no damage from non-magic weapons and objects). Likewise, your spells deal only half damage to corporeal creatures. Spells and other effects that do not deal damage function normally. You can use this ability once per day.

    Now look to in game description. No half damage for your spells. I din't reached the lv 15 so i don't know if is text only but apparently you can be incorporeal protected by an wall of summoned monsters dealing the same damage as you on non "material" form...


  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited October 2018
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  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,176
    Other problem that i've with this game. Some times i don't know what to do. For example, i wanna create an custom companion. According to some google research i need to go to the trading post but there are nobody who allow custom companion there. I already spended a lot of time talking to everyone on my city and... No custom companion. I wanna a custom druid with high perception to explore. Where i need to go??????

    And chimaera, you are right.
  • DrHappyAngryDrHappyAngry Member Posts: 1,577
    Uhm Anori 8 Eyes is inside Oleg's Trading post, costs like 2000 gold to hire a companion. She shows up in the tavern in your capital.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    I took @SorcererV1ct0r advice (sorta). Use your expendables and don't forget to equip them. Break away from the Baldur's Gate Hoarding complex (BGHC) and certain fights will be easier. I am also resting more often than I do in a CRPG, another habit I need to break. It's ok to leave a area/dungeon and rest to replenish spells, especially with a caster heavy party.

    Still slowly slogging through the game though.
  • DrHappyAngryDrHappyAngry Member Posts: 1,577
    deltago said:

    I took @SorcererV1ct0r advice (sorta). Use your expendables and don't forget to equip them. Break away from the Baldur's Gate Hoarding complex (BGHC) and certain fights will be easier. I am also resting more often than I do in a CRPG, another habit I need to break. It's ok to leave a area/dungeon and rest to replenish spells, especially with a caster heavy party.

    Still slowly slogging through the game though.

    YES! Use your expendables. Don't be afraid to sell the crap you'll never wind up using so you can get build points, either. Just don't go too nuts on buying build points.

    So I asked this earlier, but nobody replied. What do you guys think about a certain deal you're offered right when you get your barony?

    The mayor offers you a deal for 500BP. It opens up a small project for your treasurer that gives you the 500BP, but makes all your buildings cost 25% more. I think once your economy hits level 3, your treasurer gets a 90 day project to fix the deal, and get rid of the 25% extra cost. I think it's actually worth it, if you time things right. In my current game, I took it, and did the project to get the BP after I built enough to start up my capital and first city. I put Jubilost on the job to fix it as soon as I could, when there aren't many events popping up, and not doing them has less negative consequences, and have almost cleared it. I've been holding off building anything in my third region, since I'm down to about 2-3 weeks left on that project. The boost to BP really helped with annexing the southern Narl Marshes and Kamelands, as well as increasing the skills of my councilor. Asides from not having built anything in the third town, I'm feeling like I'm pretty ahead of things on my kingdom this game.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited October 2018
    Dorcus said:

    Running away from fights seemed pretty impossible to me when I played.

    Expeditious Retreat. Does what it says on the tin.

    You only need to get one party member out alive unless you are playing on a higher difficulty setting. And if you are playing on a higher difficulty setting you really, really have no right to complain that the game is too difficult.

    An honestly, what did you expect to find in a place called "Ratnook Hill"?
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  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    I've never had any problem leaving a random encounter map.
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  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,176

    Uhm Anori 8 Eyes is inside Oleg's Trading post, costs like 2000 gold to hire a companion. She shows up in the tavern in your capital.

    Thanks, another guy was literally in front of him... Anyway, took 84500 to hire an druid with a mastodon companion, her name? Albedo and yes, i an a Overlord fan. She doesn't look like Albedo in any way, she is a druid but the role is similar to the anime(if i can create an succubus companion will be much more epic)




    deltago said:

    I took @SorcererV1ct0r advice (sorta). Use your expendables and don't forget to equip them. Break away from the Baldur's Gate Hoarding complex (BGHC) and certain fights will be easier. I am also resting more often than I do in a CRPG, another habit I need to break. It's ok to leave a area/dungeon and rest to replenish spells, especially with a caster heavy party.

    Still slowly slogging through the game though.

    YES! Use your expendables. Don't be afraid to sell the crap you'll never wind up using so you can get build points, either. Just don't go too nuts on buying build points.

    So I asked this earlier, but nobody replied. What do you guys think about a certain deal you're offered right when you get your barony?

    The mayor offers you a deal for 500BP. It opens up a small project for your treasurer that gives you the 500BP, but makes all your buildings cost 25% more. I think once your economy hits level 3, your treasurer gets a 90 day project to fix the deal, and get rid of the 25% extra cost. I think it's actually worth it, if you time things right. In my current game, I took it, and did the project to get the BP after I built enough to start up my capital and first city. I put Jubilost on the job to fix it as soon as I could, when there aren't many events popping up, and not doing them has less negative consequences, and have almost cleared it. I've been holding off building anything in my third region, since I'm down to about 2-3 weeks left on that project. The boost to BP really helped with annexing the southern Narl Marshes and Kamelands, as well as increasing the skills of my councilor. Asides from not having built anything in the third town, I'm feeling like I'm pretty ahead of things on my kingdom this game.
    About scrolls, wands, etc you should't be afraid of use then when is necessary. Not mention, there are material requirement for certain spells... For example, Stoneskin is an pretty good spell but requires diamond dust(expensive reagent), you should't use stoneskin on every fight, but if your main warrior is engaging 3 trolls, this can save his life.
    deltago said:

    I took @SorcererV1ct0r advice (sorta). Use your expendables and don't forget to equip them. Break away from the Baldur's Gate Hoarding complex (BGHC) and certain fights will be easier. I am also resting more often than I do in a CRPG, another habit I need to break. It's ok to leave a area/dungeon and rest to replenish spells, especially with a caster heavy party.

    Still slowly slogging through the game though.

    About resting, just carry enough supplies. I play with a small party and no XP share(this makes the game much easier IMHO, i defeated Stag lord at lv 6, almost 7), that means that i have access to higher tier spells earlier and need less resources to camp(and have less people to hunt/defend/etc)

    ---------------------

    Anyway, other critique that i saw and think that is right is that the game assumes that the MC is a arcane caster. I know, a lot of games did the opposite, on NWN2 for eg the game assumes that the MC is a human fighter, you can see by dialog mainly on trial, companions, how some encounters occurs with you being dispelled in front line, this game is the opposite, gives no PURE arcane caster(you have only an wizard/rogue hybrid and a magus) but gives 2 cleric companions. Also, on a side mission on starting zone, there are swarms of enemies who are very hard if you have only melee fighters. Maybe the difficulty complain is a true point for players who like more melee characters. I don't know. Any opinions?

    PS : About undead bloodline, IMHO they should have added vampiric bloodline since non lethal damage is apparently not in game and talking about swarms, be able to summon a swarm sounds epic https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-3rd-party-publishers/kobold-press-bloodlines/vampiric/
  • DorcusDorcus Member Posts: 270
    edited October 2018
    Fardragon said:

    An honestly, what did you expect to find in a place called "Ratnook Hill"?

    tbh I expected my save files not to break so I guess I'll never know the intricacies of the game's combat until sometime next year maybe ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    edited October 2018
    I love the: "Holding <unknown binding< enables tactical time flow..." hint. Just wish I knew what unknown binding was :p
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited October 2018
    I sometimes wonder if people who complain about difficulty in real-time with pause games spend much time controlling their characters. Maybe it's just because I always turn off the party UI in any game I play because I can't stand it on principle, but even in my first run-through of Baldur's Gate 1 & 2 I never felt I was banging my head against a wall in the same way that I would in an action oriented game like Dark Souls and Ornstein and Smough. If you take full control of your party, micro-manage and pause all the time, all these games become WAY easier. I can't even bother to play BG anymore on core rules because once you know certain things, the difficulty just falls by the way side. You can get through the first half of BG just with a Sleep spell. A Fire Elemental will wreck nearly anything in vast chunk of the first portion of the second game. But my advice to actually enjoy these games is to abandon scripts altogether and take full control of your party members. You'll see a vast improvement in your success rate.
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    deltago said:

    I love the: "Holding

    It used to say what binding that was until a few patches ago. Can't remember it though.

    I figured it was because it became unbound by default for some reason. You can still probably find it and kind it yourself in the controls options.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    chimaera said:

    Fardragon said:

    I've never had any problem leaving a random encounter map.

    Just to confirm: I meant leaving the random map during combat, when the enemies are still present?
    I think you may need to not have any party members engaged, which my require turning off the AI if combat has started. I find that turning on stealth enables you to walk straight past random encounters.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    deltago said:

    I love the: "Holding

    It was supposed to default to shift+space, which I think may have been a problem for some keyboards. I suspect you may need to set the binding in the Options now. It's not something I felt I ever needed though.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited October 2018


    Anyway, other critique that i saw and think that is right is that the game assumes that the MC is a arcane caster. I know, a lot of games did the opposite, on NWN2 for eg the game assumes that the MC is a human fighter, you can see by dialog mainly on trial, companions, how some encounters occurs with you being dispelled in front line, this game is the opposite, gives no PURE arcane caster(you have only an wizard/rogue hybrid and a magus) but gives 2 cleric companions. Also, on a side mission on starting zone, there are swarms of enemies who are very hard if you have only melee fighters. Maybe the difficulty complain is a true point for players who like more melee characters. I don't know. Any opinions?

    Kind of like in NWN2 OC it makes the game a lot easier to be a cleric, since you don't get one until late (and she isn't very good) and there are undead everywhere from the start?

    I think this in both cases the unbalanced NPCs was by accident rather than design. I don't think arcane casters are any more effective than fighters at the start (unless they focus on summons and have an animal companion). I think the difficulty people are having is understanding flanking, and lots of the early enemies having sneak attack.

    IMO Arcane Trickster (which you get) is superior to a vanilla wizard in any case.
    Post edited by Fardragon on
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  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited October 2018
    chimaera said:

    Fardragon said:

    chimaera said:

    Fardragon said:

    I've never had any problem leaving a random encounter map.

    Just to confirm: I meant leaving the random map during combat, when the enemies are still present?
    I think you may need to not have any party members engaged, which my require turning off the AI if combat has started. I find that turning on stealth enables you to walk straight past random encounters.
    I'm not sure it's possible with epic random enocunters, at least not some of them. Last one was a group of bloody bones beasts (or whatever they are called) while my party was level 3, and they engaged immediately.

    Never seen those (in 149 hours play time) - maybe you wandered a long way from the critical path? The toughest thing I have seen at low level are large elementals, and you can just turn around and walk away from them.
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