Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition has been released! Visit nwn.beamdog.com to make an order. NWN:EE FAQ is available.
Soundtracks for BG:EE, SoD, BG2:EE, IWD:EE, PST:EE are now available in the Beamdog store.
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

Boob Plate: Another perspective.

ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,419




Many automatically call the fantasy "Boob Plate" dangerous, impractical, unrealistic and ridiculous but here's an alternate perspective I hadn't considered and that caught me by surprise.

Shad is a medieval enthusiast and makes many videos about medieval times, from armor and weapons, to castles, as well as commenting on various fantasy tropes.

O_BruceBelgarathMTHsemiticgodJuliusBorisovKamigoroshi
«13

Comments

  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,719
    I've seen the second video today and I'm really glad I did.

    semiticgodArchaos
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 4,824
    @LadyRhian , I'd be interested in your thoughts and reactions, if you have the time. The first video focuses on how armor was actually made historically, and the second focuses on what might be reasonably practical in a fantasy setting. The video maker has a great sense of humor and liberally sprinkles very funny jokes and memes throughout his presentation of ideas.

    semiticgodJuliusBorisov
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 11,667
    It looks like the deal is that boob plate is still unrealistic, but not so counterproductive that no hypothetical female warrior would ever use it. Provided it's actual plate mail made of steel (the breastplate wouldn't cave in if it was still hard metal) and it doesn't have inexplicable gaps in it (like a plunging neckline or whatever), the "boob plate" shape would only be slightly less effective than conventional armor.

    Still probably not something that would ever happen (it would require extra metal to curve around the breasts, which would add weight and cost), but at least this means it can be less cringey and immersion-breaking in fantasy, as long as it's still full armor.

    JuliusBorisov
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 4,824
    I cross-referenced into this other video by the same guy, and it's also very good. I wonder if it would make sense to incorporate the ideas of freedom of movement, stamina, and cooling of the body into a fantasy gaming system, something like, wearing armor gives you +X to armor class, but not wearing armor gives you +X to constitution or hit points, and +X to dexterity (or wearing armor causes a penalty to constitution and dexterity)?

    Kamigoroshi
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,603
    3rd ed DnD tried to make non-armoured fighters more viable, with some success. There were some alternate rules in Unearthed Arcana that radically changed how armour worked, and it was at least interesting food for thought.

    I enjoy watching Shad's videos, though I don't always agree with him I think he's pretty bright and knows his stuff. I should watch this video at some point. Regarding boob plate, the huge glaring problem is that having the center of the breastplate not stick out is very bad armour design, as you really want plate armour because its so good at deflecting force, and distributing the force that can't be deflected away. This is why maces for example used flanges or even spikes apparently, so they wouldn't skid off metal but catch and deliver their full force.

    It would be easy to design a breastplate to accommodate an average woman's bust line back in the middle ages, in part because women were on average quite skinny, and thus would likely not have prominent breasts. So, the standard male breastplate with it's protruding/domed center would likely fit just fine on a woman. Note there are/were men with very large chests that would be harder to fit into armour, especially if the wearer is very muscular, as their effective size varies quite a few inches when their muscles are flexed, requiring a looser fit which would be very uncomfortable when not flexing. :s When I was at my skinniest, I think I had about 20 inches difference from waist to chest, and this would be hard I think to fit plate armour to, and there are more extreme bodies out there.

    lolien
  • ArdanisArdanis Member, Developer Posts: 1,356
    I prefer Japanese fantasy female armor designs. At least they have clear understanding it's about aesthetics and fashion, and not stripping or realism.

    FinneousPJ
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 11,667
    Perhaps the best defense of boob plate: maybe it's just a cosmetic cover on top of normal armor. You could actually just build a set of normal armor, and then put a couple thin cups of metal on the chest.

  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 4,608

    Still probably not something that would ever happen (it would require extra metal to curve around the breasts, which would add weight and cost), but at least this means it can be less cringey and immersion-breaking in fantasy, as long as it's still full armor.

    Not any bit less unrealistic than all those rather ridiculous codpiece armor were, really.
    Memo to myself: start a petition for Baldur's Gate 3 to include codpieces.

    lolien
  • ArdanisArdanis Member, Developer Posts: 1,356
    edited January 15
    Some Walkure Romanze characters inside. No boob plates, yet stylish and sexy as hell.









    Flashburnbleusteel
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 3,687
    There should be a Sports Bra +5 to make wearing full plate more comfortable for the gentler sex.

  • DorcusDorcus Member Posts: 233
    edited January 16
    you can pry my male Final Fantasy XIV boob plate and tactical thongs from my cold dead hands

    semiticgodArdanisBalrog99Kurona
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,065
    Dorcus said:

    you can pry my male Final Fantasy XIV boob plate and tactical thongs from my cold dead hands

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 4,608
    Balrog99 said:

    There should be a Sports Bra +5 to make wearing full plate more comfortable for the gentler sex.

    At last! Dorn's torment shall finally be over with this Padded Moob Bra of Freedom +5!
    Now that should be enough to redeem this gentle fella.

  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 855
    I thought the only real battle outfit was the school uniform...

    voidofopinionBalrog99
  • voidofopinionvoidofopinion Member Posts: 1,242
    The last time I wore a seifuku while brandishing a broadsword I needed a lawyer...

  • ArdanisArdanis Member, Developer Posts: 1,356

    Yes, the miniskirts are really good armor there.

    Don't think you need much armor there for jousting.

    Also it doesn't have to be mini.

    The last time I wore a seifuku while brandishing a broadsword I needed a lawyer...

    Dafuq man, what country you're from.

    Flashburn
  • voidofopinionvoidofopinion Member Posts: 1,242
    Not one that supports wearing seifuku while brandishing a broadsword.

    :(

    lolien
  • DrHappyAngryDrHappyAngry Member Posts: 819
    Skirts were armor, hell, a lot of the roman legion wore skirts made out of hardened leather strips to protect their legs..

    The Scythians had plenty of women warriors, and may have been the source of the Greek myth of the Amazons, or absorbed the Amazons. One of their leaders, Tomyris, a woman, led the army that killed the Persian emperor Cyrus The Great. They pretty much wore the same leather and scale mail as the men of the time. There's no evidence they cut off a breast to be better archers.

    Most armor requires wearing a lot of padding underneath it, like a gambeson for heavier metal armors. All that padding would pretty much remove most of the differences between sexes. Not only would the padding protect from impacts, it was needed to keep the armor from chafing.

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 704
    edited February 1
    These are a few of his videos where I really wanted to get into contact with him to point out all the problems with what he was saying.
    When he calls the plate realistic (first video, about 190 seconds in) I want to point out to him that the design of the armor (like so many other fantasy designs) does not take into account the possibility that the wearer might want to move. In my opinion, any armor that leaves the human's rump as stiff as a tree trunk is not practical armor. The reason skirts of plates exist is to permit motion.
    Shad then goes on to say that medievals were already styling their armor after their sense(s) of fashion, and while his first example has a little merit, his second example most decidedly does not. The thin waist in medieval fashion comes from armor, not the other way around. The armor is suspended from the waist, after all. It's practical. Shad himself links to Knyght Errant. I wish he'd go over and watch some of those videos himself. This also explains the (necessary) weakness in the armor that he later uses to justify an even bigger (unnecessary) weakness. (second video, about 267 seconds in)
    And he can point to pre-medieval armor all he wants. If the Greeks had had the understanding required to make medieval-style plate armor, they would have.

    Post edited by Humanoid_Taifun on
    JoenSo
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 3,687
    Full-plate with a training-bra would cover most instances of non-gender specific armor. Look at the armor of Brienne of Tarth. No modifications necessary even though she's obviously a woman. Unless you're so endowed that you'd be more inclined to more 'feminine' wiles, you'd do fine in 'normal' armor.

    DreadKhan
  • ArdanisArdanis Member, Developer Posts: 1,356
    Not sure about obvious... I don't really watch GoT, but I was seeing bits here and there on youtube, and iirc everyone thought she was a man until she took off her helmet.

  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 737
     Most armor requires wearing a lot of padding underneath it, like a gambeson for heavier metal armors. All that padding would pretty much remove most of the differences between sexes.
    Yep, speaking from experience, a proper sports bra will make you flatter; it works really like a one-boob holder instead of trying to spearate them. I'd expect that in the earlier ages women simply used binding.

    The other question is how is such armor even supposed to work? Armor shaped like a barrel is going to divert the blows towards the sides of the body, but armor that curves inside towards the center of your ribcage would make the blows potentially more lethal.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 11,667
    One of the key points from the video by Shadiversity is that a breastplate of hardened steel isn't likely to bend much even if it's not shaped the standard way, and so the "boob plate" thing would only be slightly less effective. The impact would still be distributed across the body, since the breastplate would hold firm.

    I do agree with a previous point, that Shadiversity overestimates the importance of cosmetics in historical armor. He brings up the example of a nobleman's codpiece on his armor, but I'm skeptical that the nobleman would find himself in real combat very often, and the reality is that most suits of armor for actual soldiers did not have cosmetic flourishes--personally, I'd think the mere presence of plate mail would itself be an impressive display of wealth and power.

    lolien
  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 704
    @semiticgod The point is not just to distribute the force across your body, but to redirect it away from your body. Any hit that slides off a curved plate will have all its remaining energy wasted.
    If a weapon comes to a full stop against your armor, and your armor did not bend at all, that means that 100% of the attack's kinetic energy was transferred to you.
    (armor bending can actually benefit the person using the armor, because it takes energy for armor to bend - but I am not saying that armor should bend!)

    FinneousPJsemiticgodlolienSkatan
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 713
    I agree that boob plate does not make sense for combat, despite this video. Though I remember Ce'Nedra in the Belgariad asking for some to impress her status as Queen to her troops. Her blacksmith was not a fan of that.

    But I am very willing to tolerate it, as long as it is not bikini plate like some of the above anime stuff. Not saying I did not see worse examples in Western fantasy. Even Ultima Online had skimpy female plate.

    Skatan
  • ArdanisArdanis Member, Developer Posts: 1,356
    Ammar said:
    But I am very willing to tolerate it, as long as it is not bikini plate like some of the above anime stuff. Not saying I did not see worse examples in Western fantasy. Even Ultima Online had skimpy female plate.
    Oh, come on, where is bikini there?

    JuliusBorisov
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 3,529
    There's none. Are you ashamed of yourself?

  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 704
    @DreadKhan Your hips are not a good place to attach your breastplate to - because your hips would be constantly moving during battle, and not just sideways, but even up and down. Do you understand the problem with that?
    I also never implied that the Greeks couldn't make plate armor, only that they couldn't make medieval-style plate armor, which is significantly better than anything the Romans or Greeks had, both in terms of protection and mobility.
    If you have a general argument to make to demonstrate that plate armor is unnecessary for disciplined troops, then I would like to hear that. I suspect the real reason was just the law of diminishing returns, and that to the classical world metal was still much more expensive, but that is pure guesswork. So it was simply too expensive to be cost-effective, not unnecessary and expensive.

    By the way, interesting points on heat treatment.

    DreadKhan
«13
Sign In or Register to comment.