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Bonus to lore for Diviners

O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,735
Hello. I am proposing the idea to add additional bonus to lore score for Diviners specialists mages.

Why?
Each mage specialization recieves bonus to scribbling scrolls from their school, penalty to all others, inabillity to scroll anything from opposite schools. Specialists' spells from the school they favor are more difficult to resist for the enemies affected (2 penalty to saving throws) and specialists are also more resistant to spells of their school (2 bonus to saving throws).

However, general nature of divination spells either does not allow to use saving throws or when it does, it is to nearly useless spells (detect alingment, detect evil etc), which make Diviners lack any good advantage. There is a matter of scribbling scrolls, but this can be easily ignored when changing the difficulty of the game. As I demonstrated, this particular specialization lacks notable advantages, other than maybe more challenge.

What?

What I propose - and what seems quite logical to me - is to give Diviners an additional bonus to lore per level. I think it works well with the nature of the kit - a mage that is focused on solving mysteries and attaining knowledge would have more lore.

I suggest for Diviners to have bonus lore per level - let's say, 6 per level instead of standard 3. What it does it makes Diviners useful more as an utility than rest of the specialist mages, since they cannot be more useful on the actual battlefield.

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Comments

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 2,940
    Good , balanced suggestion. I understand that the only disadvantage that diviners have is not being able to use spells that require saving throws, so your idea has merit.

  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 1,904
    It would be better for you to make a mod that does this than for Beamdog to change diviners for all players, as there are probably plenty of players who do not want diviners to be changed this way.

  • Ludwig_IILudwig_II Member Posts: 148
    Why would anyone not want this change?

  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 1,904
    Ludwig_II said:

    Why would anyone not want this change?

    One possible reason is that it breaks the symmetry between specialist mages by giving one specialist mage an ability while not giving the other specialist mages abilities of their own. Even if it may make the specialist mages more balanced, it still feels like a very artificial change.

  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,735
    @OlvynChuru
    I don't think "you can mod it yourself" is viable answer here. You can give that reply to multiple feature requests threads like this one and achieve nothing.

    Also, regarding modding, if I have a time to learn how to do that, then I can better spend that time doing something useful with my life.

    One possible reason is that it breaks the symmetry between specialist mages by giving one specialist mage an ability while not giving the other specialist mages abilities of their own. Even if it may make the specialist mages more balanced, it still feels like a very artificial change.

    I could suggest for more viable Divination spells for that could make use of penalty/bonus to saving throws Diviners has. While it would appeal a more viable and fair solution on surface level, unfortunately it would open a nasty can of worms. Such as making enemies use those spells, which would require new AI scripts and worse, require adjusting scripts for mods such as SCS which would be a pain in the back for everyone.

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 2,940
    O_Bruce said:

    @OlvynChuru
    I don't think "you can mod it yourself" is viable answer here. You can give that reply to multiple feature requests threads like this one and achieve nothing.

    Also, regarding modding, if I have a time to learn how to do that, then I can better spend that time doing something useful with my life.

    One possible reason is that it breaks the symmetry between specialist mages by giving one specialist mage an ability while not giving the other specialist mages abilities of their own. Even if it may make the specialist mages more balanced, it still feels like a very artificial change.

    I could suggest for more viable Divination spells for that could make use of penalty/bonus to saving throws Diviners has. While it would appeal a more viable and fair solution on surface level, unfortunately it would open a nasty can of worms. Such as making enemies use those spells, which would require new AI scripts and worse, require adjusting scripts for mods such as SCS which would be a pain in the back for everyone.
    Well, technically divination are powerful and necessary . Identify is quite necessary in BG1, Detect Invisibility and Detect illusion is a must against enemy backstabbers if you got SCS installed (specially in BG2) , and true sight is one of the most important spells in the game.

    That said, they could apply other kinds of divinative spells, such as those that give attack bonus (true strike) , AC and saves bonus (premomition) , and improved versions at higher levels.

  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,735
    @DJKajuru
    True.

    Still, it is also true that divination spells doesn't generally allow for saving throws and such, meaning the "saving throws advantage" specialist mages have doesn't apply to diviners.

    And as I hope I demonstrated above, creating new spells that have those would open whole different can of worms.

  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 1,904
    O_Bruce said:

    I don't think "you can mod it yourself" is viable answer here. You can give that reply to multiple feature requests threads like this one and achieve nothing.

    Also, regarding modding, if I have a time to learn how to do that, then I can better spend that time doing something useful with my life.

    Even if you do not want to mod it yourself, I seriously doubt that Beamdog would make a change like this to the diviner kit. But this is a very simple change. If your life is too busy to learn how to mod, I believe I could make a basic mod to make this change to diviners for you. Would this be okay?

    I could suggest for more viable Divination spells for that could make use of penalty/bonus to saving throws Diviners has. While it would appeal a more viable and fair solution on surface level, unfortunately it would open a nasty can of worms. Such as making enemies use those spells, which would require new AI scripts and worse, require adjusting scripts for mods such as SCS which would be a pain in the back for everyone.

    Actually, adding more divination spells is a fine idea for a mod and is something Beamdog would probably be more willing to do (given that they added new spells to the game in Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition). It would not necessarily create AI problems because we do not have to give enemies in the game the ability to cast the new spells (any more than they have the ability to cast Clairvoyance). It's fine if only the party uses the new spells.

  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,126
    Ludwig_II wrote: »
    Why would anyone not want this change?

    Because it is an heresy against PnP rules.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 10,578
    Raduziel wrote: »
    Ludwig_II wrote: »
    Why would anyone not want this change?

    Because it is an heresy against PnP rules.

    Hardly. PnP encourages house rules, and BG is chock full of them. This one is extremely mild, as they go. Let's remember, the standard of comparison is the Baldurized Berserker/Swashbuckler/Wild Mage...

    Of course the obvious answer here is to forget feature requests, just play with mods that make Diviners more awesome. (I made one - it gives you Contingency as an ability at level 1, which is super fun in the early game.)

  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,735
    Thank you for applying little bit of necromancy to this topic. I actually forgot I didn't replied to what OlvynChuru said.

    So, my reply is: I think it would be more than welcome to have new spells in general. That would also solve some problems with other specializations, such as Enchanters due to lack of spell on higher levels. I dig it.
    Raduziel wrote: »
    Ludwig_II wrote: »
    Why would anyone not want this change?

    Because it is an heresy against PnP rules.

    Irrelevant. Baldur's Gate is not PnP session and it shouldn't even be that.

  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,126
    edited February 14
    He asked why would anyone not want this change.

    As someone, I answered. It doesn't make it a universal truth. The same thought applies to your PoV about BG, I suppose.

    Also, as said, this feature is quite easily moddable, won't conflict with anything else, etc. Worst case scenario another mod would overwrite this feature, but nothing game-breaking.

    If you never did it, I strongly recommend a ride with Tome and Blood. I think that it will suit your needs very well.

    ---

    @subtledoctor I also consider those heresies, but you know I'm a radical PnP purist. :P

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